Christianity And The African-american/black Experience

[Guest Tree of Life]

Christianity is such a mainstay among the African-American experience, both historically and contemporarily. Although not unlike many other cultures and personal experiencs, the intersection of our cultural experiences and Christianity has often lead to very negative ideals of self-image and emotionally abusive experiences for us, from everything to ideas about our heritage and history to beliefs about our hair. Many of us have questions, but many of us find ourselves shunned from asking these questions in a public forum, and when we do, we recieve the same "cookie-cutter" answers that we ourselves already know and have likely memorized. This is a place for us to talk about our unique experiences with Christianity, deconversion, and our recent decisions regarding spirituality and belief systems. A safe place for everyone to learn and share.

[lemon]

Christianity is such a mainstay among the African-American experience, both historically and contemporarily. Although not unlike many other cultures and personal experiencs, the intersection of our cultural experiences and Christianity has often lead to very negative ideals of self-image and emotionally abusive experiences for us, from everything to ideas about our heritage and history to beliefs about our hair. Many of us have questions, but many of us find ourselves shunned from asking these questions in a public forum, and when we do, we recieve the same "cookie-cutter" answers that we ourselves already know and have likely memorized. This is a place for us to talk about our unique experiences with Christianity, deconversion, and our recent decisions regarding spirituality and belief systems. A safe place for everyone to learn and share.

 

 

 

I suspect that the most difficult arguments against a black person leaving xtianity is the "civil rights movement started in the church, among christians. It was christianity that kept us grounded." Or, christianity didn't originate in Europe and only took a turn for the worse when it reached whites/Europeans (which if you really ponder that statement, it has a racially biased undertone). I must admit, I don't know enough about pre-European Christianity to come to an informed conclusion. Whatever the case, Christianity is what it is now and many people are physically and emotionally wounded because of what is coming out of the church today. The problem is, most of black America will continue to be victimized by religious lies because we are probably the least likely to question religion. Have you ever seen "atheist walking" on youtube. He is a black male atheist who complains that black Americans are generally to "scared of God." Thus, many of us will continue in blind faith.

 

I have decided to objectively study all that I can about the origins of Christianity. If it leads to all out atheism, so be it.

[pandora]

I'm not black, but I'm really interested to hear more about this. It's interesting to see it from another perspective. I am guessing it takes more guts to "come out" in the African-American community.

[R. S. Martin]

I'm not black, but I'm really interested to hear more about this. It's interesting to see it from another perspective. I am guessing it takes more guts to "come out" in the African-American community.

 

I'm listening too. Quite some time ago there was a young man on here who wanted to come out as atheist and was discussing how best to do it. As the discussion progressed it became evident that he was Black and lived in the South. Another man--Black, I think--said, "You're Black, you live in the South, and you want to come out as atheist. I hope you're big."

 

That was an eye-opener for me.

[Dhampir]

Another man--Black, I think--said, "You're Black, you live in the South, and you want to come out as atheist. I hope you're big." That was an eye-opener for me.

Ha! That was me actually. To Taylork45.

 

It's bad enough where I live to 'come out' as it were to family and associates being black. I know it must be much worse in the south.

[L.B.]

I'm not black either, but may I make an observation here?

 

In my professional ministerial experience with black people in various congregations, I have noticed a trend. Of course, people with a better knowledge of history than I have will have known this already.

 

The black congregations with which I have had contact have largely been groups originally founded on the principle of racial and cultural survival ALONG WITH Xtian belief. In short, the black churches I have seen have existed SO THAT black people could have their pro-black, culturally-relevant atmosphere AND their freedom to worship as xtians. (NOTE: Again, these statements come from my PERSONAL experiences and are not meant as blanket statements over all people like this, nor meant to denigrate anyone in any way.)

 

My rationale for a statement like that? Notice how it is very appropriate, even expected, for a black singer, preacher or whoever to use their talents in a so-called "black style". In other words, there seems to be an incubator effect. The black people in an area found a church. The church is predominantly if not totally black in its demographic. The cultural and social norms of black people (i.e. culturally-indiginous musical and writing and speaking styles) become the cultural and social norms of the church. This has especially applied to historic black churches, those that have been around for more than two generations. Fact is, even the new "progressive" charismatic/pentecostal churches, those that seem to have a greater racial spectrum represented, still seem, when the leadership is black, to maintain those cultural and social norms typical of the historical black churches of years past.

 

Friends, I think the biggest problem you will face as black people trying to work out your place in society as non-believers is the problem of FEAR. It's a fear within the older, established generations of black Christians that says that if you abandon Xtianity, you are de facto abandoning a huge part of your identity as a black person. They believe that their identity has been at least partially PRESERVED WITHIN the church, and so, above and beyond any doctrinal or theological allegiance, they believe you should owe allegiance to the church for helping you to have a safe, free place to remain culturally and socially "black". I think there were plenty of people within the black churches of yesteryear that would have told you that it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for them to obtain any social or economic freedoms if they were free blacks still practicing African folk religions, for example. Xtianity somehow gave their fight for equality a better chance of survival because it looked like the black folks were trying to "fit in" with the white Xtian community. Of course, the white Xtian community was, by and large, primarily interested in the "freedom fight" so they could proselytize the blacks, and civil-rights issues were their open door to that effort.

 

Be a non-xtian or an atheist and take away the things that made it easier to preserve a homogenous black culture and you're in trouble.

 

Be a non-xtian or an atheist and take away the thing that makes it easier to live peacably among the privileged whites in soceity? NOW you're causing BIG trouble.

 

Anyway, just my observations. I understand why it is and will continue to be difficult to live an honestly non-believing life in the midst of such powerful motivations to "toe the line".

[DucorpsToo]

I don't know if he's a member of this board or not, but perhaps the "Infidel Guy" could give an interesting perspective to this subject. After all, he has an apparently very successful website/webcast and might have been from the South being that he received his broadcast certification from the Atlanta Broadcast institute.

 

http://www.infidelguy.com/archives/6-Who-i...nfidel-Guy.html

[South2003]

Have you ever seen "atheist walking" on youtube. He is a black male atheist who complains that black Americans are generally to "scared of God."

 

I've seen it. This guy was right up in their faces as if to say: You don't tell me what to think!

 

...don't know if he's a member of this board or not, but perhaps the "Infidel Guy" could give an interesting perspective to this subject.

 

Reginal Finley (Infidelguy) was one of the sites that made me to learn more about the culture of black atheists.

 

Be a non-xtian or an atheist and take away the things that made it easier to preserve a homogenous black culture and you're in trouble.

 

You see, blacks are not be disidents from the faith of the Martin Luther Kings. I live in the South (North Carolina) and damn if anyone has a problem with me as an unbeliver. At the time. (and still does) I didn't care if I was only atheist in my neck of the woods.

 

I attended church for 3mths before giving it all up. Ironically, I became an atheist in the south. What I saw in the church made my stomach sick. The men were panting like hungry animals, the women (including the pastor's wife) cried and cried Sunday after Sunday. The choir would sing to get the place jumping. It was all a hype. The preaching was strange, kind of like hip hop preaching. That was a way of attracting the younger crowds.

 

The pastor could not wait to get 100 or so member. Eeach Sunday was a pleading to become a members and thithing call so that the church could be established as a non-for-profit. So with a family of 5, that was a good for business. Finally, when the 100 or so members were established, some political women came that Sunday to present a "Business" certifcate (free to conduct business). The church is associated with Eddie Long based in Atlanta, GA (NewBirth-Charlotte).

 

I have decided to objectively study all that I can about the origins of Christianity. If it leads to all out atheism, so be it.

 

It will!

[Guest Tree of Life]

From my own studies, and you may or may not have heard this before, but the spiritual system of Ancient Kemet (Egypt) was the branching point for many religions. Christianity became a bastardization of Ancient Egyptian and other Near Eastern religious systems. It adopted European worldviews when it hit Europe, which included the mandate of dominion (dominion theology) as far as conquests (Constantine, ex.), the removal of women from the deity construct, and eventually, racial heirarchy classification. Which is why we see today the Bible used to justify conquest...even from antiquity. You have Manifest Destiny, much to the shagrin of the indigenous Americans, and forced conversions on the premise that the peoples were heathens and uncivilized (a melding of religion and racism). Also, look at Coucil of Niceae/Trent, King James, the path to translation in English from the Hebrew, then Latin Vulgate, etc.

 

In response to L.B., The Black experience is not static or uniform. We "Africanized" Christianity because we had no choice; it was a foreign worldview to us during the enslavement period, but we merged indigenous beliefs and practices with Christianity. It is not that the basic belief of Christianity holds our culture, we meld our culture with EVERYTHING. If enough people turned Buddhist, we would "Africanize" that too, because that is the innate nature of culture. Leaving the church does not mean leaving behind Black culture. Culture continuously shifts.

 

What has happened since Civil Rights (this is my perspective from both experience and study) is that the breakdown of the Black community has left a lack in the church in many areas. In segregated areas, the church was more than a religious meeting ground, it was a community of support---which was it's most important function. It was religious AND Social AND political. It was concerned for the well-being of it's citizens. It seems when we achieved a little of Martin's dream, the church shifted to prosperity preaching and melded the religious with the political, but left out some of the social causes we needed. NOT ALL. But the growth of the megachurches has seen the religious experience impersonalized...not to mention capitalized by CAPITALISM. The Black church was a stronghold against oppression...is it now? The Civil Rights era Black church funded the movement for de-segregation. It was the bread and butter, the meeting ground, the planning room. Who has displaced the Black church in fighting for social causes: War in Iraq, healthcare, livable wages, injustice in the judicial system?

 

You know, there was a time when Martin said that it was hard to tell Americans to be non-violent for their struggles in America when America was sending young men to be violent in Vietnam. He also commented that "a time comes when silence is betrayal", in response to the Imperialist nature of America's Vietnam War. It's time Black people (my people) and everyone start taking the FULL scope of the leader's they admire, instead of just cherry-picking from their messages. Truly living in the legacy of MLK means taking him in 1963 AND 1967.

[pitchu]

Wow! Thanks, Tree of Life, for starting this thread (so that I didn't have to be presumptuous ) . It's already an eye-opener for this Caucasoid.

 

I felt naive and completely thrown when, in 2004, I was petitioning in the exclusively Black neighborhood of upstate Elmira, NY (that Black neighborhood doesn't officially exist, y'know ) for signatures for a Congressional candidate. When person after person poured out their grievances, hurts, and the injustices visited on them to me, a lowly signature-gatherer, I got at least an inkling of how un-heard, un-seen and unacknowledged this community is. Whenever I asked about their churches as a possible venue for organizing, for activism, I got the same story, told with much frustration: The churches only care about how you look and how your children look and act when you show up in church... anything that's really going on in your life that you need help with is no concern at all.

 

Is this perception widespread? Is it a recent phenomenon? Am I still lost in the past days of Dr. King?

[lemon]

Wow! Thanks, Tree of Life, for starting this thread (so that I didn't have to be presumptuous ) . It's already an eye-opener for this Caucasoid.

 

I felt naive and completely thrown when, in 2004, I was petitioning in the exclusively Black neighborhood of upstate Elmira, NY (that Black neighborhood doesn't officially exist, y'know ) for signatures for a Congressional candidate. When person after person poured out their grievances, hurts, and the injustices visited on them to me, a lowly signature-gatherer, I got at least an inkling of how un-heard, un-seen and unacknowledged this community is. Whenever I asked about their churches as a possible venue for organizing, for activism, I got the same story, told with much frustration: The churches only care about how you look and how your children look and act when you show up in church... anything that's really going on in your life that you need help with is no concern at all.

 

Is this perception widespread? Is it a recent phenomenon? Am I still lost in the past days of Dr. King?

 

I am not sure exactly what other black people have experienced. But for me, the looks factor was a huge issue in black churches that I am familiar with. Years ago, there were churches who only wanted their members to wear white tops and black skirts (black pants for men). There were some churches who taught that it was sinful to wear open toe shoes. Today, there is the problem of church being a complete fashion show and nothing more. When I go into black churches (mega churches or whatever) it is quite common to see people dressed up and looking good, even if they are going through hell in their personal lives. It was almost a sin to come to church casual (especially on Easter). I began to think that all of the dressing up was just a cover. In my last church, the "first family" never showed up with the same outfit worn on a previous Sunday. Needless to say, the "bishop and first lady" are now divorced due to adultery. But, I can't say that the looks factor holds true of black churches in general...only what I've experienced.

[DucorpsToo]

Concerning famous Black freethinkers of the earlier 20th century, the link below gives some interesting trivia:

 

http://www.infidelguy.com/archives/81-Famo...eethinkers.html

[Ahh!]

Definitely search Infidel Guy's archives. He's black and he has had several shows on black freethought. The first episode I heard of his show was entitled "The Black Church and something something" and I remember he made some excellent points on that one.

 

I'm white but black thinkers from the 60s and 70s had a powerful impact on my rejection of Christianity. I read the Autobiography of Malcolm X at 16 at a time when I was beginning to be very skeptical of the "goods" of Christianity and I remember that his condemnations of Christianity really woke me up to just how damaging the faith was. I had been told my whole life that Christianity was this great force that would unite black and white and end world poverty and solve all of Africa's problems. Then, I started really studying and realized how Christianity had been used to justify racism through the myth of Ham, and how it had been used to justify nothing less than the destruction of dozens of civilizations in Africa. Later, I began to study how the same process happened on other continents, from Europe to Australia, and continues to this day and I was truly disgusted. I remember thinking, "all these lives ruined and for what? So their souls wouldn't burn in a lake of fire that no one even knows for sure exists?"

 

I suspect to this day that Malcolm had strong secular tendencies but that for some reason, he just couldn't admit it. I think Elijah Muhammad did too but he was addicted to the money scheme he'd invented. It really shows in The Autobiography. Malcolm talks about how Elijah told him to "stop waiting for an invisible mystery spook to bring him to heaven and get it himself while he is alive." There is also a scene where he describes with great admiration the Nation of Islam's funeral ritual in which the participants are told to stop crying for the dead because "he no longer exists in the physical or spiritual plane."

 

Eldridge Cleaver also parodied religion a lot and I remember that was pretty entertaining to me at the time.

 

I think there are a few other black users on here but I can't remember who.

[Jubilant]

When Mythra or Checkmate see this thread, perhaps they will be able to give us some perspective also.

[Vigile]

I think Mythra is as white as you and I Jub. Could be wrong, but don't let his dancing avatar fool you.

[michie_s]

Although I am a black woman and an ex-xian I carry the perspective of the Caribbean where I was born and England and Canada where I grew up. I didn't fully accept xianity until I lived in Canada but I had been exposed to it all my life. For most people from the Caribbean being an xian is the norm...it's just part of your identity. Even people that practice more "Africanized" religions still blend some elements of xianity into their practices. My Grandmother practiced "healing" which was a form of "obeah". I think xianity was just a legitimate way for her to assimilate her practices and make them more acceptable. When I was studying for my final exams in high school I was taken to an "obeah-man" by my mother for prayers so that I would pass and he gave me specific instructions on the rituals to perform both before and after the exam. My mother has since become a devout and somewhat fundamentalist xian and I'm sure has atoned for these early sins!

 

Xianity and black culture is so interwoven and complicated I don't know if there is an easy answer to explain why it's so deeply rooted. In my experience the church was one place where black people could find respect & power...where black men and women became ministers, evangelist, deacons, bishops etc and where they could wield some influence over others, where they were looked up to, admired and obeyed! Once they stepped back outside they had to deal with injustice, prejudice and racism. The sad part is that the oppressed became the oppressors in many black churches and the rules about hair, clothing, pants, make-up, dating etc..etc..came into play to try and keep people under control.

 

I found my experiences as a black woman in the US churches very different than in England and Canada. Here is seems to be more about how well dressed you are, what you do, and how many members you have so that tithes will increase. In England and Canada the churches and members are more influenced by Caribbean norms and values that are a little different - but not better! I live in the south and I've heard so much about the "southern" mentality, but since I did not grow up with it, it's a vague concept to me personally even though I have read about it. Ask me about imperialism and colonialism as it relates to racism..that I understand and have had too much experience with.

[pitchu]

Ask me about imperialism and colonialism as it relates to racism..that I understand and have had too much experience with.

I would think that imperialism and colonialism as related to racism (since it's institutionalized by a primarily christian mindset) would be appropriate to this thread.

 

So, consider me as asking you about it, michie s.

[michie_s]

Here's my very "laymans" response Pitchu:

 

I definitely agree with you about the connection between the three.

In Trinidad where I was born Imperialism meant economic and political domination and exploitation of the resources of our country: bauxite (for aluminum), oil and humans through slavery - all sanctioned by xianity. Colonization meant that Trinidad as a British Colony – until it gained independence, was governed with the xian morals and values. Racism meant that everything coming from elsewhere (read predominantly white countries) was always seen as better than it’s Trinidadian equivalent. The funny this when I moved to England I was far ahead of the students at the same level as me. It was just assumed that I would have to be held back as I would not be as smart as English students just because I came from the Caribbean. Ask any person from the Caribbean and they can probably relate similar experiences. Additionally most if not all schools at the time I attended were either catholic or some other xian denomination. So our education was steeped in xian doctrine.

 

Even today the evangelical movement is growing there especially amongst people who live in poverty. A lot of my relatives still in Trinidad have been converted to xianity I’m sad to say. The Caribbean. Latin America and Africa are the new breeding grounds for fundamentalist xianity. But unfortunately they have adopted the capitalist sway to xianity - ie it's all about the money - which is just another type of exploitation. An interesting point is that Trinidad holds the largest Carnival in the Caribbean...although again this has strong roots in xianity. But lots of people "let go" of their faith during Carnival season!

[Tyson]

Like Miche, I am a black native (we DO have white, Jewish, Indian, Arabic, etc natives too) of the Caribbean (St. Thomas, Virgin Islands to be exact) and live in South Florida (Lauderhill - "Hi Miche). I actually grew up on the island of St. Kitts with my grandmother who raised me in church. If you think "the church" is firmly entrenched in the black community in the United States, especially the south, you would not want to see it in the Caribbean. Hell, in Jamaica, notorious for some of the world's most cold blooded killers, there is a church on every corner (well, that's true in just about every Caribbean island) and those same killers will shoot you dead while cursing "who Jah bless, no man cyan curse." Others will stone, insult and/or decry homosexuality(uals) using biblical verses and fornicate the place to the ground and drop all kinds of unwanted children all over the place.

 

There's a girl I know down in Hollywood, Florida and when I told her that I gave up the fantasy of Christianity a few years ago, she was in complete shock. She kept asking how could I give up my heritage. She actually associated Christianity with my heritage and thus it appears to her like I sold out and sold out to something that is solely the domain of white people, you know, like swimming in the Everglades with alligators on a TV show or bungee jumping (lol).

 

I once asked in a thread on one of the predominantly Caribbean flavored websites I am a part of "who many black atheists do you know?" Hardly anyone knew. The funny things is, the site barely has any staunch fundamentalist Christians, but when I stir the pot with questions on religion all kinds of responses fly in (well initially there used to be responses). The same folks who will party all night, get drunk, screw like rabbits outside wedlock, smoke weed are the same ones who were looking at me like, "how dare you question my God?!"

 

Another thing is, I work for AT&T and I visit the homes of many black people here in South Florida. Almost without fail, each house I go to, I see at least one bible on a night stand or on a table near the front door. I see entire church wardrobes in their closets. I have always maintained and will continue to maintain that there is a not a people on earth who can play church better than black folks. Drop us off in front of a church an we put on a show. We know the mannerisms, know the "look how holy I look" facial expressions, know the antics to carry on with during the church service and know how to dress the part. You need look no further than Calvary Chapel, Ft. Lauderdale where I used to attend. Since the church was a cross section of the surrounding community, you had a nice mixture. The black folks (the women) were generally well decked down with the older ones wearing wide hats, colorful dresses that has sleeves at least to the elbows and ran down at least to the middle of their calf muscles (of course not all). The white folks (the women) would show up in jeans pants and slippers (of course not all).

 

Nothing is more interesting to me, however, than noticing a grave lack of knowledge of the bible amongst black folks. Our services are generally designed to stir up emotions, not thought, so you find less actual teaching and more preaching AT you. As many of you have noticed by now, we are very animated, passionate and emotional. We are accustomed to sitting under the speeches of fiery, charismatic, sometimes eloquent speakers who know how to fire up and work the crowd. There is a lot of cliches, a lot of running up and down, a lot of screaming and a healthy dose of "don't worry if your life sucks down here. God's gonna give you your fair share over yonder." It's the same message we heard during slavery. On the other hand, there is a growing church segment of the black community that is leaving that notion behind and trying to get their's now, ala, the Creflo Dollar$. They have been influenced by the "prosperity Gospel" movement made famous by white swindlers like Kenneth Hagin and kenneth Copeland and the bling mentality has taken over.

 

Finally, I have presented this to some of my people. If you do a quick study on Christianity in Europe, you find that quite a bit of nations over there treat the religion of their forefathers like an old grandmother in a nursing home. It's a symbolic relic of the past. They're abandoning Christianity in droves, YET, in the areas that their nations colonized in the past, forcing their religion on the native populace, or in our case, dragging us over here and teaching it to us, those same conquered people cling to it like there's no tomorrow. You are likely to find that 25% of Spanish people from Spain are non believers in the Judeo-Christian god, but less than 1% or Mexicans consider themselves atheists or some other "ists" or "tic." It's something to think about.

[lemon]

Clipped entire post/quote for neatness of thread. - Fwee

What stands out the most to me is: Our services are generally designed to stir up emotions, not thought, so you find less actual teaching and more preaching AT you.

 

I also find that to be true. The question is, when will we wake up?

[michie_s]

Hey Tyson, so glad to know that there are other ex-c's close to home (I'm in Margate).

I attended Calvary Chapel service once with a friend and like you I saw the difference between black folk and others when it came to "looking the part" of going to Church. Wherever you go into a mixed congregation you will find that it's hard for black folk to let go of the xian dress code. Historically I think it's a facade that helps us feel better about who we are - you may not be much but you can still look like you are somebody! I remember listening my mother black power records where the mantra was "I am somebody..I am strong.." etc, I can't remember it all, but we were supposed to listen and repeat what was said. The hope was that it would be ingrained in us and become part of our thinking. The church had definitely taken over the task of building up the black psyche to think that you are more than, or better than...just make sure that you tithe regularly though!!

 

Our services are generally designed to stir up emotions, not thought, so you find less actual teaching and more preaching AT you. As many of you have noticed by now, we are very animated, passionate and emotional. We are accustomed to sitting under the speeches of fiery, charismatic, sometimes eloquent speakers who know how to fire up and work the crowd. There is a lot of cliches, a lot of running up and down, a lot of screaming and a healthy dose of "don't worry if your life sucks down here. God's gonna give you your fair share over yonder."

 

That is so true...when I attended funde church we sat in service for hours!!! There is nothing so long as Sunday Service at a black church. Church started at 9am and we often did not leave until 2pm or 3pm. Then we had to go back again for evening service around 7pm until at least 10pm. You just did not make any plans for Sunday other than church!! And of course if you left church having sweat the press or perm out of your hair, your face and clothes a mess then it had been a great service. The more rolling and jumping around the better. If life is shit for the whole week at least you'll had a good time in church on Sunday. You can take out all of your frustrations at racism, discrimination and injustice with a good old roll on the floor and 2 hours of emotional & passionate worship - you got pumped up enough to make it through till Wednesday night service, where you would be "ministered" to again to tide you over till the next Sunday!!

[Tyson]

Yes Miche, black folks will lock themselves in church all day on Sunday OR Saturday if they get a chance. They will take their children too and EXPECT them to sit still and listen to everything that goes on for 2-4 hours then have lunch and be back for "evening service." They call it a "good time in the lord" and I call it child abuse.

 

The indoctrination is deep. VERY deep. Check out the Rastafarians. They will decry "Babylon" and "Rome" (actually the same in a sense, but used interchangeably) but when you strip it all down they are still an extension of the Christian faith in much of their beliefs. Once I sat on Flatbush Ave at a laundromat and heard a man preaching a fiery message on a sound system. The style and delivery was like that a black preacher on a Sunday morning. After listening a little closer I realized that I was listening to the voice of the up and coming news worthy figure, Louis Farrakhan. Scattered in places of his heated rhetoric were Christian sayings and even biblical scriptures despite calling himself a Muslim. What I found interesting as I listened was that there were more reference to the Bible and Christianity than to the Koran and Islam. Was it intentional realizing most of his audience would relate to things Christian more readily OR was he even aware he is really still tied to the faith of his immediate ancestors (his mother being from Jamaica and his father from St. Kitts or the other way around)?

 

But going back to teaching verses preaching. Many of us black folks, so accustomed to hyped up emotional services are not interested in being confused by the facts. So what if the writer of the Book of Matthew made up shit and twisted "prophecy" to suit his purposes of branding the Jesus guy as the Jewish Messiah? That's irrelevant. What if the predictions Jesus supposedly made were really for a time long past and he is NOT coming back? That's irrelevant also. Understanding the history, the social background and theological understanding of the times to better understand certain passages of the Bible is not important. All we want to hear are the cliches. Hell, ministers will get up on stage and ask the congregation to open their Bibles to John 3:16 and after reading it, that's the last you will hear anything about it because Bishop Longwood (damn! there I go with the stereotype) will start with the cliches - "God is good all da time saints!" "He's my calm in the storm, church!" "God will make a way when there's no way!" "He's my doctor when I'm sick!" "God will work it out, church!" Ask brother Samuels who was Zebedee and he can't tell you.

[lemon]

Clipped entire post/quote for neatness of thread - Fwee

Until someone finally says (should actually) God aint working a damn thing out. And then some have the nerve to get specific...God gonna do something for you in 3 weeks. Just watch for it. LOL

[pitchu]

The posts in this thread are so boldly revealing that I feel almost like a voyeur. There are complexities discussed here that I'd never considered. By contrast, my Christian background seems marked by the pettiest, most shallow, most utterly dismissable yokes and ties... I never had my loyalty to my heritage questioned when I questioned that religion. Even my backslid Arkansas Pentecostal minister father, though he struggled all his life with issues of faith and reason, faced only his extended family's opprobrium for not bringing in good money once he left the pulpit.

 

I'm so very glad for this thread!

[michie_s]

Yesterday I was in the chat room and an interesting discussion came up around the topic of homosexuality and some of the members experiences in the xian world. As balck people we know what racism, prejudice and discrimination is like! It made me think of the issue of homophobia in the context of the black experience. I know that as heterosexual woman and former xian I have participated in my share of discrimination against the LGBT community. In the balck community and especially in the caribbean community homophobia is strong. It's just recently that I have opened myself up to look at this issue from a freedom of choice standpoint.

 

I wonder where other people are with this. Was it ever a big issue, did you struggle like me to come to terms with acceptence and respect coming from a community where I think some people feel it's still okay to beat up and osctracize gays, lesbians etc. I feel that the pressure against homosexuality is more oppressive in our culture than in the general society. Do you agree/ disagree...comment?