Sorry I Confessed

[4truth]

This has been a bad couple of weeks. Right now I feel like the cost of leaving has been too high. My sister has turned her back on me, my friendships are strained of non-existent, and my husband seems like he's from another planet. If I had it to do over again, I would have kept my mouth shut about my deconversion and just quietly disappeared. Telling the people in my life didn't help anything and has turned my life into hell.

[Grandpa Harley]

Well, that will pass, since nothing it permanent... your husband was only married to you if he chooses his imaginary friend over you, you 'friends' were never your friends... sometimes the truth hurts, and if the only reason people were sticking around was that you had the same imaginary friend then you were in a Cult....

 

Sorry it's turning out badly at the moment... but life changes are seldom smooth. A lot here have been through this mill and come out stronger, better people. I've encountered more community and acceptance here than I have from many Christians, both virtual and in real life...

[R. S. Martin]

Gramps, I guess sleep is slow in coming tonight. Or maybe that was just an easy way out of a bad discussion. Though you don't seem like that kind of person.

 

4truth, I think we've met before but I don't feel like I really know you. I'd hate to bore you by repeating stuff you already know but I'll assume you don't know too much about my story. Anyway, I know the pain of losing family. A year ago was brutal. It was by accident that I "spilled the beans." When my siblings found out that I was going to meet with a pagan and didn't believe in the god of the bible, they turned cold on me. Nothing I could do or say changed that. They treated me as though I had turned into a monster.

 

Before they had fully adjusted to the idea that one of their own did not believe in the God of Israel, our mother passed away. That opened another huge can of worms because their religion dictates that they can't have a formal meal with sinners. A meal served at a funeral presided over by the minister is a formal meal and a person who does not believe in the traditional God of the Bible is a sinner by default. Never mind that this does not agree with a literal interpretation of the biblical passage on which it is based. I've checked it out in detail and it doesn't.

 

But that's beside the point. I did get to eat with them in the end because I have not yet revoked my membership at a church I joined years earlier. It was a decision made in the heat of the moment under great pressure when emotions ran very high, about twelve hours before the funeral service began. My one brother begged the minister and got his consent. Early on the morning after the funeral I got the first sense that things were not as good as I thought they were. I got a call from my other brother. He did not come out and tell me that he disapproved of the decision but I was left with that feeling. Other conversations over the next two weeks left little doubt in my mind that they expected me to reconvert.

 

Then there were letters. Friendly chit-chat letters. But letters all the same. And I was left feeling manipulated. I tried responding but felt badly shaken up. Those letters had strings attached. They were meant to show the kind of love that would eventually bring me back into the fold again. Like an atheist friend, who deconverted many years ago, explained, it's like politians who are always scheming for your vote. Nothing ever is done for pure relationship's sake. That helped me feel better about rejecting the friendly letters. I did not understand it but I knew that for my own well-being I had to cut contact. I actually returned a letter unopened. Come to think of it, there have been very few letters since then.

 

I am quite sure that they interpret it as the monster atheism makes of people. What they won't see is the impact it has on me when they treat me like a monster. I've actually tried discussing this with the sister I've been closest to and she would not acknowledge having heard. I cannot have a relationship with people who treat me like an evil monster. I deserve better than that and refuse that kind of relationship. Only when I made overt effort to establish alternative social networks did I feel able to go on. My family always haunted me. Now it is much easier to live, just knowing that there are people who will stand by me come life or death.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that there is life beyond family. Some spouses come around; others don't. Like I said on another post, deconversion is no child's play. Christians may claim it is and they make themselves out to be the victims when we deconvert. They refuse to look at what they do to us. They are in the majority and can afford to turn a blind eye and deaf ear. This community exists for us to support each other through these very difficult times when family so often either totally fails or cannot understand. Know that you are not alone.

[GraphicsGuy]

4truth, it's very, very tough when you have no support. Your situation is very difficult to say the least. I personally think that if your husband intends to be a true Xian then he should at least obey the Bible when it says "Husbands, love your wives."

 

If YOU don't believe the Bible then you're under no obligation to follow it, but HE sure as hell IS.

 

Fundies are great at loving people who AGREE with them, but are absolute assholes when it comes to REAL love and actually obeying their own damn book. Real love is accepting someone, no questions asked, no conditions applied, good, bad, ugly and all - and you DON'T have to 100% agree on ANYTHING to have a good relationship.

 

Yeah, so tell your hubby that I said that he's a religious ass-wipe who's love for his wife is completely conditional since he isn't tough enough to accept an opinion different from his. I'd say it to his face if I knew him.

 

I'm sorry if that's harsh/cruel/unfeeling, but that is what I think...

[pandora]

It's awful that you're going through this. It is the most lonely part of deconversion, if you ask me. I think that your husband is maybe rethinking his own faith. My husband went through a similar period, but now he an ex-Christian like me. He still has some issues he is dealing with, but it is much better between us now. Just give everyone time to process it and prove to them you are still a decent human being. Everyone else here has said wonderful things too. *hugs*

[Grandpa Harley]

Gramps, I guess sleep is slow in coming tonight. Or maybe that was just an easy way out of a bad discussion. Though you don't seem like that kind of person.

No, I'm afraid I got me second wind kicking ass and chewing gum... and I was all out of gum... people spreading crazy were multiplying, and I can be sarcastic and nasty on no sleep and an a hangover of the sort that means I have to stop to vomit into a bin from time to time... I went to bed at 3am feeling quite cheery... so it was more events over took me...

[Vigile]

4truth, I'm sorry you have to go through this right now. Hopefully things will get better.

 

Here's another perspective on your situation that you may or may not have yet considered.

 

Yes, you could have kept your mouth shut and just played along. Doing so would have cost you the price of not being true to yourself, but it is an option. By being true to yourself you took a painful step toward self-realization. After you get through the initial trials I think you will find that you are much happier and better off. It's going to take some time to rebuild your life around your new self, but I think you will find that the effort has been worth it when all is said and done.

 

Best of luck

[mwc]

This has been a bad couple of weeks. Right now I feel like the cost of leaving has been too high. My sister has turned her back on me, my friendships are strained of non-existent, and my husband seems like he's from another planet. If I had it to do over again, I would have kept my mouth shut about my deconversion and just quietly disappeared. Telling the people in my life didn't help anything and has turned my life into hell.

I realize this is going to sound very dick-ish to you right now but I'll say it anyway...

 

What if you change some of this around to something like "I wish I had just kept my mouth shut about being pregnant and quietly got it aborted?" Does that sound better to your ears? I used something more extreme to make my example so that you'd get the point a little easier. Like a pregnancy becoming apostate was likely going to "show" eventually one way or another. You can only live the lie so long. Unlike the pregnancy it's rather difficult to "abort" your unbelief and believe again.

 

Why did you tell them to begin with? Did you think that xians would be happy and support your decision that you are no longer one of them? I've read what others have said that love should be unconditional and so on but that's rubbish. Love is conditional or we'd simply be in love with the first person we met or everyone. We all place conditions on love (it could be as simple as "you must be of a certain gender...if you switch gender this relationship is over" that is a condition like it or not...so are things like don't stab me and things like that...love is full of conditions we just think "beliefs" are petty and shouldn't count but they do just like if you aren't racist and your spouse suddenly becomes one that "belief" could be a marriage killer and people would not blame you). The condition many xians place on love is that you must be xian. The problem is we (being ex-c's) and they (being active xian's) really don't know WHY this is suddenly so important when only moments before the actual declaration the other person's "faith" really was never an issue at all but now it is center stage. It's a deal breaker (you'd think something so important would be more than an assumed item in most relationships).

 

For some reason it is a betrayal of trust. I have a feeling that if you asked them to explain it they couldn't (and then wouldn't beyond some trite comments maybe about heaven and hell but never really addressing the issue). I think they feel that the rejection is on our part (we generally reject their "god" wholesale...which is true) and they withdraw and then reject us (not separating our rejecting of an idea they hold and our rejection of them as people...ie. they are their "god") in-turn but pull the "morals" clause (demonizing us as a result of their initial hurt and to prop themselves up as "good" people to justify their actions). This is all a guess on my part though. I could be wrong.

 

What needs to happen is they need to understand that you weren't rejecting them but the "idea" of "god." Maybe that can happen and maybe it can't. Even if it does it might not help anything at this point.

 

mwc

[4truth]

Thanks, everyone. I was having a major whiny, pity-party weekend. Things look better today. Sometimes I'll think I'm through the hard part, then something will hit me. Overall though, life is definitely better than it was 5 months ago when I deconverted. I didn't announce it to everyone, just the people in my life who I felt close to and would have noticed at some point. This has sadly, sadly been an eye-opening experience in seeing what Christianity really is. "Christian love" is anything but. It amazes me that some Christians seem to think that punishing me by withdrawing their love will somehow make me realize what a horrible mistake I have made and bring me running back begging for forgiveness. They must have missed freshman psychology class.

 

My husband is actually coming along. He has supported me even though he doesn't agree with me. He even says that he can see how the change has been good for me. This weekend I was frustrated because I was trying to discuss the necessity of using reason in deciding what you believe. He came back with the "You've just got to have faith that God can do anything" answer that is all he can say about things that make no sense. I asked him if I told him God made me able to fly around the neighborhood yesterday, would he believe that? He laughed and told me that was different, but couldn't really say why. At some point I think his brains will kick in and he will come to his senses.

 

mwc, I agree with you that to many of my Christian friends and family, they look at it as a personal rejection and betrayal of them. I totally don't understand that. Maybe it puts them in the uncomfortable position of having to think about their own doubts.

 

I really appreciate all of you. It helps so much to know that if I am feeling alone and need support, it's as close as my computer. Your stories and encouragement get me through many a rough day.

[PoeticLicence]

4truth,

At one point back in my college xtian days (ick), when I was a self-righteous little Bible-know-it-all, I “rebuked†a girl for straying. I thought it would jolt her back to our blessed Jesus and save her from herself or the devil or whatever. While driven in part out of arrogance (Look at me! I’m gonna save her and be a spiritual big shot!!), it was also motivated by love (The bridge is out ahead and you’re headed for disaster! Stop!!!) As twisted and dichotomous as this thinking is, I did think I was doing the right thing.

 

Here I am, some thirty years later, and I can’t help but think back to that poor girl I accosted in the name of Jesus. She’s one of many reasons I’m so careful in whom I confide about my de-conversion now. Few can handle it. Fewer can handle it with maturity, dignity and love. And the position I put them in by confiding in them might be more complex than I realize. But they do have love for me. What they don’t have is the ability to know how to translate the theology they’ve been taught for decades with the love and concern they feel about me.

 

Having said that, you’ve done what you had to do and the consequences are tough to plow through -- but how can you/we do otherwise? Can we fake it forever? Can we lip-sync the Lord’s Prayer until death? At what point will you/me/we de-converters meltdown out of the sheer madness of it all if we don’t just face it both internally and externally?

 

You did what you had to do. You came clean and were honest. I can’t help but hold onto the hope that for you and me and others like us, there’s a new beginning on the horizon… One that’s more honest and clean and true to the essence of ourselves.

 

Best to you. Things will get better….. I’ve got to believe that….

[Amethyst]

Real love is accepting someone, no questions asked, no conditions applied, good, bad, ugly and all - and you DON'T have to 100% agree on ANYTHING to have a good relationship.

 

Have to agree. Conditional love sucks and is NOT real love. If someone only accepts you on a number of conditional factors, for example that you agree 100% with them, that is not real love. Real love grows over time. It is sad that too many people accept each other on the basis of superficial things alone (for example, political affiliation, religious affiliation, etc.) and when those things change as they will because people change as they learn new things, they reject the person completely. American society is currently based on superficial acceptance, and I wish it wasn't. Maybe in the future we will be more enlightened.

[R. S. Martin]

mwc said:

 

I think they feel that the rejection is on our part (we generally reject their "god" wholesale...which is true) and they withdraw and then reject us (not separating our rejecting of an idea they hold and our rejection of them as people...ie. they are their "god") in-turn but pull the "morals" clause (demonizing us as a result of their initial hurt and to prop themselves up as "good" people to justify their actions). This is all a guess on my part though. I could be wrong.

 

What needs to happen is they need to understand that you weren't rejecting them but the "idea" of "god."

 

I remember trying to understand as a child why people were so upset when someone left our church for another more liberal church. People always left for a more liberal church so I finally figured out that this was bad because the more liberal a church was, the closer to the world it was, and that was bad.

 

Then even stranger things started happening. (I must have been born in a relatively calm period.) Churches began to split left and right. Ours was threatening for many years. I don't know what the issues were in other churches but in our church the issue was the telephone. A lot of people wanted to have the telephone in the home and a lot of people did not want to allow it. Some people were sure that telephone numbers were part of the number of the beast and that the world would enter our homes and church via the telephone. Others felt it was wrong to constantly use their neighbour's telephone to call vets and place feed orders. My brother had a telephone against the rules of the church. (He also had other problems such as smoking) and as a consequent was not a member for many years. He managed to measure up long enough in between to get married in the church.

 

As I said, I learned while growing up that leaving the church for a more liberal church was bad because it took people closer to the world. That was a consistent pattern that I saw in my parents and other adults. The strange pattern that emerged with the church splits was that my parents started siding with the liberal elements--sometimes but not always. For example, Dad's childhood friend and lifelong neighbour was part of a liberal element in a church split (his parents left our church back when he and my father were children). Dad supported him against the conservative element of his church. And Dad also supported my brother.

 

My brother had some other things the church didn't allow and possibly did not know he had. One day I dared speak about these things in the presence of my parents when my brother was not around. My parents knew about them. I was really confused and wanted some idea as to why they supported him when earlier in our life they had taught us so strictly to be obedient to the letter of the law. Dad responded by referring to something I'd made for myself, he practically made fun of it. I explained why one was okay by church standards and the other was not. He acknowledged hearing my point and never answered my question. I did not dare raise it again but he was clearly supporting the liberal element here.

 

My mother said something one day that sheds light on the topic if we look at it from mwc's angle. She referred to when my brother rebelled as a teenager and ran away from home for several days. Nobody knew where he was for a few days. Then he returned. Losing him was a serious blow to my parents and I noticed that after that Dad never ever again dared take a hard line with him. She did not mention it in so many words but I knew what she meant. She said something about being so thankful that things were so good between him and dad, and that one would never have expected it to turn out this way, given the way things were when he was young.

 

It is pretty evident that relationships with people is more important than right and wrong. If taking a hard, uncompromising, unreasonable line with a kid is wrong then it is wrong with all your kids, not just the one that decided to run away. What about the one that had a nervous break-down? Or the one that compromised her Self for an invisible persona that nobody could find fault with? Or the one that forfeited his childhood in doing things for mom in the hope that she would stop nagging dad so there would be peace in the home? The only one they ever noticed was the one who ran away. For some reason, I always had the idea that Mom and Dad existed for us kids. Then this past year the I was stuck with the horror of the idea that we kids existed for Mom and Dad and not the other way around.

 

Possibly we are the result of a power struggle we never chose and had nothing to do with. Such an idea is revolting in the extreme. So it seems to me. Maybe if I were a parent I would feel differently but I'm not. It seems a lot of people believe god created the entire universe for similar reasons--because he needed something. That, too, is a revolting idea. God, parents, people, whoever, create something or bring sentient beings into the world. I have been responsible for the birth of animals. Such a person is responsible for the care of the sentient beings he/she brings into existence--NOT the other way around. I did not think that my baby bunnies owed it to me to live just because I gave them a life they never asked for. I considered it my responsibility to keep them alive and healthy. I found it a major challenge. Shouldn't parents take a similar attitude toward their kids? And God should never create anything if he didn't do it out of pure love.

 

Christian theologians, and others, are always thinking things out like this, and then building on these things as though they were written in stone. I claim the same right. If God exists and is pure love like this, then God will not be offended if some of us are honest enough to confess with our mouths and witness with our lives that we cannot see evidence of this God. In fact, God will be proud with those of us who have made such excellent use of the exquisite organ he has so carefully crafted and cautiously placed inside protective bone and tissue at the top extremity of the human spine. If God exists, he will say to such people at the Final Judgment, "Well done! thou good and faithful servant. Thou hast persevered in spite of doubt and persecution. Enter into the Wisdom of your Maker and learn from the very Fount of Knowledge."

[R. S. Martin]

mwc, I agree with you that to many of my Christian friends and family, they look at it as a personal rejection and betrayal of them. I totally don't understand that.

 

I get the same feeling. I remember as a child hearing comments like this about people who left our horse and buggy church for a church that allowed cars:

 

If it's not good enough for them to live the simple life like us then they can look out for themselves!

 

It's not our fault they don't make themselves content with our humble way of life.

 

They just wanted to be somebody.

When I left, it was basically the way mwc said. They crowded me out. And when I finally went out a man about my own age who, incidentally got everything I wanted in life, i.e. a career as teacher, told me: I would enjoy a university education just as much as you.

 

I had never challenged him about it or even discussed it with him. He also said it was awkward for him that he was teaching and I wasn't hired when he knew how much I wanted to teach. I guess he never used his weight to get me into a position. I'm sure these things sounded good to his own ears when he was a married deacon and teacher in his forties with a large family and I was the apostate single woman looked down upon and despised by my own siblings.

 

I think some of these people will live to see that they made a mistake. I have not yet decided whether my autobiography will be written under my real name or not. Nor do I know whether it will ever be written. I'm just saying, 4truth, that painful as these things are now we will come out victorious one day if we persevere. I am so glad that you feel your husband may be coming through for you. It seems he wants to. "Where there's a will there's a way." With my family it's more like there's no will because they have decided Ruby has simply taken things too far. Like the lines at the beginning of this post.

[4truth]

RubySera, your story makes mine not look so bad. I'm sorry for all you had to go through.

 

Today my best friend of 25 years e-mailed me and said she understands why my sister cut off her contact with me. After all, she said, I was the one who divorced them (meaning all Christians). Another one of those personal betrayal examples. I'm sick of it!

[R. S. Martin]

RubySera, your story makes mine not look so bad. I'm sorry for all you had to go through.

 

Today my best friend of 25 years e-mailed me and said she understands why my sister cut off her contact with me. After all, she said, I was the one who divorced them (meaning all Christians). Another one of those personal betrayal examples. I'm sick of it!

 

It's best to find other friends. Or, at the very least, not to share this kind of issue with Christian friends. They will identify with the Christians. Because my family is horse and buggy Mennonite, and I am studying with Evangelical Lutherans (NOT Missouri Synod or fundamentalist), the difference between the Christians I "divorced" and the people around me was large enough that I could do some venting. But venting about religion itself has to happen here or with other exChristians. People who have never been Christians sometimes fail to understand the deep struggles of identity, etc. we go through. It's so clear to them that religion is bullshit.

 

Even when I thought I was very careful not to vent about religion itself to Christians at school, one person kept accusing me of charging Christians with being stupid. I was innocent and I think he was finally convinced. I may consider Christians to have blind intellectual spots but I don't think we are justified in charging them with more blindness than any other philosophers. It is totally impossible for a single human brain to absorb and comprehend all the points of view that have ever been held in the history of human thought. Each person has to choose a field in which to specialize. To give an example of specialization, a person who specializes in systematic theology of the ninteenth century will probably narrow his field down even further. And we're not even looking at philosophy. Both belong to history of thought.

 

That's a very fancy way of saying the Christians are going to say we are stupid and under-educated and we tend to say the Christians are stupid and deluded. All of us can choose to stop throwing mud and just be human companions for each other. This means accepting strengths and weaknesses of our own selves and others. Not expecting Christians to support us when we reject their god because they are incapable of doing so. It is a rejection of part of themselves. After all, the Bible says to love god with one's whole heart, strength, and being. Maybe that's why it's so personal.

[4truth]

"But venting about religion itself has to happen here or with other exChristians. People who have never been Christians sometimes fail to understand the deep struggles of identity, etc. we go through. It's so clear to them that religion is bullshit."

 

 

This is so true. Christians can't understand why we would ever give up on faith and non-Christians can't understand how anyone can get so wrapped up in it. ex-Christians are the only ones who can relate to the struggle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Not expecting Christians to support us when we reject their god because they are incapable of doing so. It is a rejection of part of themselves. After all, the Bible says to love god with one's whole heart, strength, and being. Maybe that's why it's so personal."

 

 

 

 

I think you are right. I haven't tried to get Christians to try to agree with me or support me, but I have asked them to try to understand why I felt I had to make the decision I did. Apparently that isn't possible. I'm beginning to see that it's best to avoid the whole subject with most people because there are too many complicated emotions involved. Even though I would like my old friendships to continue, I'm not sure that's possible. There's no way they can accept what I have done, so their disapproval will be always present. The disapproval infuriates me. No one needs that, especially from people who are supposed to care about you. I've been meeting new people by taking some classes and joining some other groups, but friendships take time. It helps to connect with people who don't judge me by my religious beliefs.

 

Even though I am starting to understand the reactions of the Christians I have been close to, it is still painful to go through the loss of these relationships. I'm so glad my husband has at least been understanding. Every time I get rebuffed from a Christian it makes him mad. They are really helping my campaign to help him see the llght!

[R. S. Martin]

I finally told a christian friend the whole reason for my disbelief. He took it suprisingly well. He never cut me off and often agrees with me on most of the major points of why I don't believe, though I don't think he has dropped his, he certainly does not ridicule or act flakey about my disbelief.

 

Thanks for sharing about this. I remember your story when I first joined these forums over a year ago and you couldn't talk to any Christians about it. This seems like progress so maybe you've got a point. To first let people see that you're still the same person before you let them know about your deconvertion.

 

I don't think that would have worked with my family, though. They are too hard core. When they saw that I had normal tender human feeling they believed I had not totally deconverted. When evidence proved otherwise they felt obligated to work on reconverting me.

 

4truth, I can't tell you how very happy I am for you that your husband seems to be coming to terms with it. That is just plain wonderful.

[PandaPirate]

Fundies are great at loving people who AGREE with them, but are absolute assholes when it comes to REAL love and actually obeying their own damn book. Real love is accepting someone, no questions asked, no conditions applied, good, bad, ugly and all - and you DON'T have to 100% agree on ANYTHING to have a good relationship.

Absolutely right! It just goes to show you that religion is a form of manipulation and control. They want to control what you think and how you think it. They can't accept others as they are, which indicates emotional immaturity.