Asshole Pastor

[brad_religion]

Hey everyone, it's been a while since I have been on the forum, but I feel as though I have to point out that some pastors are just vile. I will post his email and my responses in totality, I am just famished from it. Kind of like when a sexual molestation victim is confronted with their molestor. Long story short, he is a pastor at a church close to where my old church was. You know, he first pretended to be sympathetic about me being "hurt" in the church and then his last email really added insult to injury and basically proves these sadistic pricks enjoy hurting people even more than they were. And of course, he feels okay doing it, since he thinks God is okay with it.

 

Pastor Mike #1 -

 

Hello,

 

My name is mike and I am a pastor in East Berlin, at an A/G church. I

ran across your testimony while doing some research on why people leave

 

the faith. It's not because the bible is untrue, but because we preach

 

it and teach it wrong. Any way I would like to meet with you and

discuss this further. Lunch will be on me. i know that you have made

a

choice to leave Jesus, I can assure you He is not like the volley ball

wilson, or a figment of your imagination. I would like to tell you why

 

and how I came to Christ. It may change your life or give you more

material to fuel your writing against the faith. It may be laughable

to

you, it makes no difference to me, I know you got the wrong stuff.

 

I know the A/G youth pastor you wrote about, by face and casual

greeting. This is irrelevant but I thought you would like to know.

Please consider meeting with me for lunch and some conversation, you

already know that I believe you have made a wrong turn, but I would

like

to introduce you to the real Jesus, the One you made search for and by

your testimony had missed.

 

No Condemnation, just concern,

 

 

Mike

 

 

My response to #1 -

 

Hi Mike, thanks for writing. Firstly, I live near

Williamsport, PA, so meeting for a lunch might not be

likely, unless you want to travel up here. Email

correspondance is just as good for me. Or even the

phone would be okay with me. Let me know if that is

just as well. I checked out your church's website

(New Life Assembly). The first thing I noticed was

the tabs going across the first page. "Online giving"

was interesting to me. Just like a business. If you

know Doug Sayers, that is the guy who was my old youth

pastor. I have to say he was pretty cool. Although,

if he were to find out I'm an atheist now, he might

cry or something lol. My mother still attends

Christian Life Assembly, and she bumps into Pastor

Doug and his wife Susan every so often. As far as

your website is concerned though, I notice that near

the bottom right corner, there is a statement - "The

most important decision we make in this life is where

we’ll spend our eternal life. When we have made that

choice, we are not only prepared to die‚ we’re finally

prepared to live!" and then it gives a link which goes

to the AG national site. And when I clicked on it,

they have a nice graphic of Jim Caveziel as Jesus on

it. I presume that means the AG is okay with that

bloodthirsty film the Smashin of the Christ. But what

gets me is the "most important decision we make in

this life" is something we have absolutely no evidence

for making a decision about. It is tantamount to

saying I have a "choice" when being robbed at gunpoint

when I never asked to be in that situation. I realize

that is not part of your email, but something I

thought was interesting.

 

Here is the problem, every pastor I meet says

something like they have the "real" Jesus while other

pastors have the "fake" Jesus. Imagine if you were to

go into McDonalds, and everyone working there is

dressed the same, sounds the same, claims they are

"real" employees, and the other people working there

are imposters, they all quote from the same work

manual but can't agree, they all claim to have the

same boss, but the boss is never there to validate

which one is his "real" employee. That is exactly

what Christianity does.

 

Here is the problem, you said "It may be laughable to

you, it makes no difference to me, " and then you said

"No Condemnation, just concern, Mike ". In other

words, you first said it makes no difference if I take

your claim seriously or not, and then you said you

were concerned.

 

The best way I can explain this is like so...When we

are children, and go to a magic show, the magician

does some amazing things we can't understand and makes

it look like he has some connection to a force we

don't. It seems so amazing and that is the point.

The magician's job is to trick the observer into

believing something is real when it isn't. So,

children think it is magic. But, if someone shows and

explains to them how the trick works and how it is not

magical, but an illusion to APPEAR supernatural, then

the child realizes he was tricked and can't go back to

believing it was magic. The unknown is the key. That

is why I think people believe in gods, because to them

it rationalizes things they don't understand. I

simply found out that the magician (religion) was

tricking me and I figured out how the trick worked

(psychological manipulation, fear, guilt, etc). I

cannot ever go back even if I wanted to for some

reason. Just as you honestly could not go back to

believing a magician has super powers in spite of

knowing he is playing a trick.

 

But, you are welcome to contact me via phone or meet

in person if you don't mind driving up here.

 

Talk to you later,

 

Matt

[brad_religion]

Pastor Mike Email #2 -

 

Matt,

 

Although the call would be great, if you want to meet for lunch , let

me know I will drive to Williamsport, I sincerely mean that. I am he

associate pastor here and the on line giving is not my idea in fact I

loathe the idea, but in order to be part of the process of healing the

church you must continue to work from with-in. i will tell you a great

 

secret, that you already know, much of the American church languishes

under their idea of what the Bible tells us about the faith. And yes

most often different fellows will even in contention fight about all

things in between such as, the gifts (whether they are for today or

not,

Baptist, Pentecostal and the like), or other issues that lie on the

periphery. we generally argue about these, which I lament, instead of

focusing on the reality of who Jesus is and what He was incarnate to

do. It true there is alto of hypocrisy in the church, but Christianity

 

is about following Jesus, who is perfect, not his followers who are to

be growing in this perfection. Of great interest is what the Bible

does

say about interpretation (II Peter 1:19-22), It does not matter what

men

say even those who are sincere, it matters what God has said

 

You called me on something i believe you misunderstood. I said i would

 

like to share my testimony (but did not care) with you because it so

closely mirrors yours, even the awful experiences you had as a kid with

 

your neighbors. i too was on a search, and I found peace in Christ not

 

a system. I am concerned but I realize speaking with someone who has

turned from God to an atheistic position may laugh and ridicule the

real

life change that Christ gave to me, and millions. In this respect I do

 

not care if you respond unfavorably because it will not change the

truth, which is not relative. I am greatly concerned that you do

respond favorably for your sake, forgive my mis-communication and poor

 

manner of speech, I am not of noble intellect.

 

I was really thinking allot about your search in Christianity and found

 

it sad, I believe that you were a very hurt young guy who was told that

 

Jesus could make all your sky's gray, that's why no one dare speak to

about the gospel in truth. They generally blew smoke, that they

believed, for it was what they were taught. but is not reflected in the

 

bible. Ttake two men on a plane who are instructed to put on a

parachute, one is told that it will improve his ride and make him more

comfortable, they never tell him what the real reason for it is

assuming

if he knew the plane might crash he might not get on the plane. As he

rides the rest of the passengers mock his"stupidity" and he starts to

see the lie that his ride has not made him more comfortable or that the

 

ride is better, he feels isolated and fooled and scoffs at the real

reason for the shoot. He eventually takes it off.. The other man is

instructed by another that his journey is important and and there is a

real reason for the shoot; that they will be going through a storm and

there is a good certainty that there will be a crash This man gladly

puts it on and in fact bears the other passengers ridicule knowing that

 

the person instructing him spoke truthfully and wisely. When the time

of reckoning came and the plane was about to go down, the one man with

confidence clung to His shoot for he knew his life depended on it, the

other man defiantly even though he saw the situation justified he would

 

be alright by reason, for others did not tell him the whole story and

he

would not get fooled again (sorry for the reference to the Who). I

believe it is the same way for you. Reading your testimony away from

Jesus, I saw a young man allot like me who was told that if you just

follow Him your pain, suffering, confusion, and anger would go away,

you

would have and abundant life (they mis-interpret that as well). Truth

be told Jesus did not come to give us Sunny days and a easy

psychologically breezy life. In fact He said if you follow me you will

 

have tribulation. Jesus came to save us from the plane crash, which is

 

an conscience decision to not let His work save us. This does lead to

God's wrath. I can tell you from my own experience all I wanted was

peace in my family as a kid, a ceasing to the darkness, it did not

come,

that was not God's fault but the responsible parties who chose to tear

down and fight. I had problems because of it, in fact I hated my

family

and even God at one point. I got sick of the church game (Catholic),

and other stuff and set out to do my own things. I became perverted

and

fowl, and miserable beyond comprehension, to the point of suicide. on

that day although I did not trust God, but in desperation said Jesus if

 

you are who You said you are do something about my life, and he did.

but

not for half a year. When i sat down to read the Bible for myself

apart

from what others told me I found Jesus.

 

What did I find? A real God who has a law, and who did love me. If I

were Him I would have vaporized me, But as a Father He waited till I

could hear the truth. My misery was not because of my parents, or the

ridicule and untrue church teaching that I received. My misery is

because i allowed the confusion to lead me to do things I said i would

never do. not because some preacher said "thou should not", but

because

my conscience, God given, told me no and I said yes. I found that by

my

conscience and now God's Law, I stood condemned. Further I realized

the

confusion and lack of peace was a gracious gift to let me know that if

I

took my last breathe it would be magnified in eternal punishment, not

because God is cruel, but because He is just and it was my choice. If

a

pedophile was brought to court and the judge said, "well your guilty,

but your confusion has made you this monster. i let you go", we would

be shocked rightfully so, having an outcry. Matt I was convinced my

misery was because of me, but then I saw why Jesus had come. It was to

 

give me an abundant life, one free from the guilt and punishment for my

 

breaking God's law. You spoke of the Passion of the Christ, and the AG

 

acceptance of it. I believe your comment was the smashing of the

Christ

(give or take), well you lined up with exactly what the bible says

about

why Jesus came (Isaiah 53:10)

 

"But it please the LORD to bruise Him, for Him to put Him to grief"

 

"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might

become

the righteousness of God in Him". (II Corinthians 5:21)

 

In reality we could never understand the real pain and suffering for

the word bruise means to crush to break into pieces. The Passion of

the

Christ is woefully short in telling what fully happened. It is true

 

the reason Jesus came was to give us a parachute if you will , to save

 

us from the wrath to come. We don't preach it this way very often but

it is the truth. On that day in my life I could not longer blame other

 

lack of spiritual oversight or faulty preaching of the truth, i had to

cry out, "have mercy on me a sinner. He saved me and gave me the

promises of the Bible to boot. Now in truth my life is difficult, the

message i preach is not well receive in most of the American church,

but

in 80% of the world (outside of the comfort of America), Christian

people in the millions die for this truth, not denying Him, because

when

they turned to Him for salvation He did a supernatural work and lives

in

them. I believe that in your heart, although I do not know it ,you

have

had to deny that longing for your search to be fulfilled in finding

peace, and have settled for what your mind can accept. In truth being

an atheist has it's advantages, like being able to justify living for

oneself, justifying breaking God's written law and even ridiculing it

as

being wrong, as well as justifying breaking the law God has put in the

heart of ever person through conscience. atheism makes it easier for

you to insinuate i am hypocritical as is my church because of on line

giving or a reference to the passion of the Christ. But the one thing

atheism can not do is eradicate the truth, that Jesus came into the

world to save sinners, of whom i am chief.

 

Matt in all sincerity i can not and will not try to shoot your

arguments

full of holes, for i levy that you are very intelligent, i on the other

 

hand am not. what I have i have been given. I have seen God's power

and know the transformation he has brought in my life. I am sincerely

sorry that the church has failed to answer the aching in your heart,

this is a tragedy. I can assure you by God's grace i will do all I can

 

to preach the truth, but in spite of my failings and those in your

life,

what I told you in its simplicity is true. Your sin and mine makes us

miserable and sets us searching to end the misery, you tried mens idea

of church, it failed. I did not try that but jumped into Jesus as the

Bible reveals Him. Please Matt don't turn away from Jesus come back to

Him.

 

I feel as though I am through for now. Maybe it seems weak to you, pie

 

in the sky, or even pious fluff. I assure you Matt I believe Him and

know this is true. Life comes at us from many different angles and

presents arguments that make sense in our mind, but one cannot deny

what

is in the heart. Matt in the end you can't deny all of what you

learned

from the Bible and you know the truth. Arguments come and go, but

truth

will remain the same (in spite of the worlds claim to its

relativity). A lit match will always dissipate darkness, and in

spite

of your position on Jesus, He still loves you and will receive you if

you can see Him as He is, the One who died to give you peace with God

and power to live in pain and the darkness of the world till He comes

and a real eternal joyful existence when this life passes away. I

believe it. He is not willing to let you go, that is why I wrote.

 

I just ask this, in sincerity I spoke to you, please don't try to pick

holes in my writing to you. If you desire an honest discussion on this

 

important matter, I would go where ever God wanted me to go for your

life and eternity are important to Him. Again He is not willing to let

 

you perish, but bring you to peace with him and repentance. I would

finally ask you, why would i care to even write in the first place? I

don't know you from atom. In fact until i saw your testimony I did not

 

know you existed. In truth i only know Doug through casual contact so

what gives? Let me say this, "God Himself led me to call a complete

stranger, who is an avowed atheist because, in Christ He loves Him

enough to say, don't walk away. Seriously why else would I write?

 

 

 

*Mike*

 

 

 

 

My reply #2 -

 

Mike, thanks for writing back. That was quite a read!

I left a message on your cell phone voice mail, but

I’m not sure when you will call back, so I’ll just

continue this email correspondence.

 

Well, I would like to respond to your points and my

usual MO is to respond to each thing point by point.

So, if you don’t mind, I’ll be happy to do that.

 

#1 – “Although the call would be great, if you want

to meet for lunch , let

me know I will drive to Williamsport, I sincerely mean

that. I am he

associate pastor here and the on line giving is not my

idea in fact I

loathe the idea, but in order to be part of the

process of healing the

church you must continue to work from with-in. i will

tell you a great

secret, that you already know, much of the American

church languishes

under their idea of what the Bible tells us about the

faith. And yes

most often different fellows will even in contention

fight about all

things in between such as, the gifts (whether they are

for today or

not,

Baptist, Pentecostal and the like), or other issues

that lie on the

periphery. we generally argue about these, which I

lament, instead of

focusing on the reality of who Jesus is and what He

was incarnate to

do. “

 

#1A – Well, meeting would not be out of the question

for me. And I was just saying the “Online Giving†was

an interesting thing to see on the first page. I

don’t care one way or the other. The problem with

“focusing on the reality of who Jesus is and what he

was incarnate to do†is that there is still a bunch of

debate between Christians. It presumes that there is

some set standard of identifying “who†Jesus was or

is. But there really isn’t. Safety in numbers seems

to be why people just assume that what most

Christianity teaches is the truth even regarding the

“essentialsâ€. I think you are taking the orthodoxy

position, which was an attempt of the organized church

to establish specific doctrines about the person of

Jesus. But prior to the council of Nicea, it was

anything goes and they disagreed on the things you

probably think are immovable about the Christian

faith.

 

 

#2 – “It true there is alto of hypocrisy in the

church, but Christianity

is about following Jesus, who is perfect, not his

followers who are to

be growing in this perfection. Of great interest is

what the Bible

does say about interpretation (II Peter 1:19-22), It

does not matter what

men say even those who are sincere, it matters what

God has said.â€

 

#2A – I agree, there is hypocrisy, but hypocrisy tends

to be based in religious belief than non-religious

belief because if one has a belief in a god that is

hypocritical, they can justify that hypocrisy for

themselves. That is why the Israelites claimed Yahweh

was okay with killing their enemies, because if God

says it is okay, then it is okay, even if it is wrong.

This is known as the “good evil/evil evil†excuse.

Things like worshipping a different god is a crime

deserving the death penalty.

 

The problem is that while the bible says no prophecy

of scripture is of any private interpretation, to

assume the bible is the “word of God†or the

instructions of God is just as bad as me claiming that

God speaks through Stephen King novels. There is no

evidence that any god inspired any scripture ever

written. To make the bible more than what it is will

always end in absurdities and intolerance.

 

 

#3 – “You called me on something i believe you

misunderstood. I said i would

like to share my testimony (but did not care) with you

because it so

closely mirrors yours, even the awful experiences you

had as a kid with

your neighbors. i too was on a search, and I found

peace in Christ not

a system. I am concerned but I realize speaking with

someone who has

turned from God to an atheistic position may laugh and

ridicule the

real life change that Christ gave to me, and

millions. In this respect I do

not care if you respond unfavorably because it will

not change the

truth, which is not relative. I am greatly concerned

that you do

respond favorably for your sake, forgive my

mis-communication and poor

manner of speech, I am not of noble intellect.â€

 

#3A – The problem is that while you tell me you found

peace in Christ and not a system, you are an associate

in a mainstream denomination which operates as a

conversion business and converting people who have

enough religion as it is (missions). You are a member

of the system. As far as finding peace, I don’t think

any person could honestly have any peace if they

REALLY thought their loved ones would be killed and

tortured for making an honest mistake (not accepting

or hearing about Jesus before they die). But many

people find peace in lots of things that are NOT

Christ. I found more peace as an atheist than as a

Christian and there are millions who have as well.

But, finding peace in something doesn’t necessarily

make it true. I’m sure you would agree that millions

of people get peace by psychics who pretend to talk to

their dead loved ones. That doesn’t justify what

psychics do or prove they are true, it just proves

that humans can find peace in absurdities.

 

As far as truth not being relative, the problem is

that every person I meet who says that end up changing

their mind at some point by shifting what they

perceive as “true†if they found out what they

previously believed was false. In other words, what

is believed to be “absolute truth†ends up becoming

relative because new information changes what we

perceive as truth. The only ones it doesn’t change

are people who are the most delusional and cynical

(nothing you show me or say to me will change my

mind). Such a position of “absolute truth†is the

most arrogant position I can imagine.

 

#4 – “I was really thinking allot about your search in

Christianity and found

it sad, I believe that you were a very hurt young guy

who was told that

Jesus could make all your sky's gray, that's why no

one dare speak to

about the gospel in truth. They generally blew smoke,

that they

believed, for it was what they were taught. but is not

reflected in the

bible.â€

 

#4A – Well, all churches do that to some degree.

Otherwise they wouldn’t convince people to convert

into their church. If they didn’t use guilt (you are

a sinner who needs saved) or fear tactics (believe or

you will go to hell), do you really think people would

be as likely to convert? What I was taught was in the

bible, just as what you guys probably teach is in the

bible. It is a plethora of picking and choosing which

things to apply and which things to ignore. Which

things to take literally or allegorically.

 

 

#5 – “Ttake two men on a plane who are instructed to

put on a

parachute, one is told that it will improve his ride

and make him more

comfortable, they never tell him what the real reason

for it is

assuming if he knew the plane might crash he might

not get on the plane. As he

rides the rest of the passengers mock his"stupidity"

and he starts to

see the lie that his ride has not made him more

comfortable or that the

ride is better, he feels isolated and fooled and

scoffs at the real

reason for the shoot. He eventually takes it off..

The other man is

instructed by another that his journey is important

and and there is a

real reason for the shoot; that they will be going

through a storm and

there is a good certainty that there will be a crash

This man gladly

puts it on and in fact bears the other passengers

ridicule knowing that

the person instructing him spoke truthfully and

wisely. When the time

of reckoning came and the plane was about to go down,

the one man with

confidence clung to His shoot for he knew his life

depended on it, the

other man defiantly even though he saw the situation

justified he would

be alright by reason, for others did not tell him the

whole story and

he would not get fooled again (sorry for the

reference to the Who). I

believe it is the same way for you.

 

#5A – Okay, I am assuming you are presenting me with a

modern parable for a biblical teaching. The parachute

is salvation through Jesus, the 1st man who wore it is

a person who you think was taught something “falseâ€

about the truth, while the 2nd man was wearing the

parachute for the right reason (to be saved from the

crash). While I understand this example you give, I

think you might be overlooking a few things.

 

#6 – “Reading your testimony away from

Jesus, I saw a young man allot like me who was told

that if you just

follow Him your pain, suffering, confusion, and anger

would go away,

you would have and abundant life (they mis-interpret

that as well). Truth

be told Jesus did not come to give us Sunny days and a

easy

psychologically breezy life. In fact He said if you

follow me you will

have tribulation. Jesus came to save us from the

plane crash, which is

an conscience decision to not let His work save us.

This does lead to

God's wrath.â€

 

#6A – To add to my last reply with your statement

“this does lead to God’s wrathâ€, you basically

explained the rest of the parable you gave. The plane

crashing represents God’s wrath, meaning it is a

deliberate act of the pilot, since God is a supposedly

intelligent being. The problem is you are forgetting

that you also teach that God put the people on the

plane without their permission (being born) and he is

the one who causes it to crash (damnation), meaning he

is responsible for the whole thing. The question is

what kind of person/being would crash a plane just to

see how many people would use a parachute? That is

probably the most cruel and irresponsible action we

could think of. We certainly would prosecute a pilot

of an airline who would perform such a daunting task.

How much more for a supposedly “perfect†being?

Actually, it would eliminate the perfection of the

deity you are referring to. Perfect beings don’t

crash planes just to test the passengers to see if

they put on parachutes.

 

 

#7 – “I can tell you from my own experience all I

wanted was

peace in my family as a kid, a ceasing to the

darkness, it did not

come, that was not God's fault but the responsible

parties who chose to tear

down and fight. I had problems because of it, in fact

I hated my

family and even God at one point. I got sick of the

church game (Catholic),

and other stuff and set out to do my own things. I

became perverted

and fowl, and miserable beyond comprehension, to the

point of suicide. on

that day although I did not trust God, but in

desperation said Jesus if

you are who You said you are do something about my

life, and he did.

But not for half a year. When i sat down to read the

Bible for myself

apart from what others told me I found Jesus.

What did I find? A real God who has a law, and who did

love me. If I

were Him I would have vaporized me, But as a Father He

waited till I

could hear the truth.â€

 

#7A – Okay, you say “If I were Him I would have

vaporized me, But as a Father He waited till I

could hear the truth.†Blaming the victim rather than

the abuser is a classic tactic of Christianity. You

tell me you were a peaceful kid who wanted peace and

you hated your family based on the things your family

did. I am still waiting for the horrible crime you

committed where you deserved to be “vaporized†as you

put it. You became perverted (usually in

Christianese, that means you looked at porn), and foul

(probably cursed a lot). They are both victimless

crimes. Nothing deserving of annihilation yet. You

were miserable because you were raised in a catholic

setting which probably pushed Catholicism on you hard.

You happened to be born in a family that taught you

to believe in Christianity, in a nation that has a

large population of Christians. The odds are good you

would think that if a god existed, it would be the

Christian god. Here is the problem, when people ‘read

the bible for myselfâ€, it is a good chance that they

will create a Jesus in their imagination which is

different than someone else’s. It is just like an

opinion. If it were a reality and a fact, it could be

independently verified, but that never has happened in

religion. As far as God having a law, nowhere in the

Torah does it apply to non-jews. The real question I

have is if you think God is a “fatherâ€, didn’t you

think what kind of “father†would want to vaporize me?

Certainly not a loving one!

 

#8 – “My misery was not because of my parents, or the

ridicule and untrue church teaching that I received.

My misery is

because i allowed the confusion to lead me to do

things I said i would

never do. not because some preacher said "thou should

not", but

because

my conscience, God given, told me no and I said yes.

I found that by

my

conscience and now God's Law, I stood condemned.

Further I realized

the

confusion and lack of peace was a gracious gift to let

me know that if

I

took my last breathe it would be magnified in eternal

punishment, not

because God is cruel, but because He is just and it

was my choice. If

a

pedophile was brought to court and the judge said,

"well your guilty,

but your confusion has made you this monster. i let

you go", we would

be shocked rightfully so, having an outcry. Matt I

was convinced my

misery was because of me, but then I saw why Jesus had

come. It was to

 

give me an abundant life, one free from the guilt and

punishment for my

 

breaking God's law.

 

#8A – here is the problem, if your conscience was

given by God, then I would presume that you believe

God does the same for all other people. If this is

so, then the next logical question would be why does

my conscience find the biblegod to be extremely

immoral in its actions and statements in the bible?

 

So, you believe it is a “gift†to be terrorized by a

clearly silly and fear tactic doctrine such as

“eternal punishment� It is not justice to punish

someone infinitely for finite mistakes. That is your

first error. The second is that the bible doesn’t

really support this, even if the bible were true.

Check out www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com and you will

find a well researched and biblical inquiry into the

doctrine of hell/eternal torment.

 

As far as “not because God is cruelâ€, that makes no

sense, since if a human being did the exact same

thing, they would not just be a regular cruel person,

but far beyond what we could describe as cruel and

evil. You think Hitler was a bad guy? Pol Pot?

Stalin? Forget them all, the biblegod even is a

terrorist and dictator after you die (when the real

fun begins). You say it is a “choiceâ€, but like my

other example, that is like saying you have a choice

when you are being robbed at gunpoint. A forced

choice (give me your money or I’ll kill you) is not a

free will decision.

 

Let’s take your example to “courtâ€. If a child who

lied to its parents (one sin makes you deserving of

hell, remember?) and appeared before a judge and the

judge said “You are guilty of murder as well as lying

to your parents (sin is sin), so I will “allow†you to

be tortured for making that choice†Not only would we

know such a ridiculous thing is not justice, but any

judge who would say that and enforce it would be

insane or evil or both. But an even more “perfectâ€

being like God is supposedly even worse than that?

 

The real problem I have with Christians is that they

WANT to align themselves with this concept of evil and

injustice. Even if it were true, to WANT it to be

true is disgusting. Anyone who does should be

absolutely ashamed of themselves. Forget the damage

and harm Christianity has caused humanity for almost

2000 years, just this psychological terrorism is

enough to know it is a cruel, vindictive, fraudulent,

vile, wicked and insane cult.

 

You saw why Jesus came? Was it to scare the shit out

of people? Or was it to claim to be the “savior of

the world†when most of the world won’t be saved

according to his followers? Any sense of justice is

NOT punishing the innocent as a guilty person. That

is the entire reason we have court trials, so the

innocent are not punished. Yet, in your distorted

view of courtrooms, it is as if an innocent person

came to the judge “I will take the murderer’s

punishment, you can let them goâ€, which you said would

be wrong in the case of a pedophile. Yet, that is

EXACTLY what you believe.

 

The movie Godfather isn’t just a cool mafia movie, it

has some connotations at least etimologically, of God

the Father being a mafia boss who “makes you an offer

you can’t refuseâ€. What the mafia does is force

someone’s hand by extortion/blackmail such as burglary

and then they “offer†protection (salvation) from the

burglaries (which they also committed). There is no

difference between that minor example and what you are

saying about God. You believe God sacrificed himself

to himself to save us from himself. Not only is it

ridiculous, it is cruel and evil. Now, the thing is I

don’t want you to think I believe Jesus or God is

“real†simply because I refer to them in my writing.

YOU believe they exist, so I have to use your belief

and concept about them and explain the logical

fallacies you express by believing in them.

 

 

#9 – “You spoke of the Passion of the Christ, and the

AG

 

acceptance of it. I believe your comment was the

smashing of the

Christ

(give or take), well you lined up with exactly what

the bible says

about

why Jesus came (Isaiah 53:10)

 

"But it please the LORD to bruise Him, for Him to

put Him to grief"

 

"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us,

that we might

become

the righteousness of God in Him". (II Corinthians

5:21)â€

 

#9A – I pointed out the Passion of Christ movie being

endorsed by your church because it is a roman catholic

movie which depicts the bloodiest and unrealistic

portrayal of Jesus so far. Also, it has the 5

sorrowful mysteries of the rosary along with 14

stations of the cross which are strict catholic

concepts. However, nothing in the old testament

suggests “Jesus†is who it speaks of, especially when

it is vague enough, one could say it was Superman or

some other comic book hero. The gospel writers were

the Jack Van Impes of their day. Especially Matthew’s

author. They create a basic story and add elements to

it such as “fulfilled†prophecy, which is very easy to

do, since the readers were most likely unfamiliar with

the jewish religion, so there would be no way to

really do any fact checking. All one needs to do is

read the prophecies they claim Jesus fulfilled and

examine them individually and nowhere does it suggest

the Christian god man. That is why jews can easily

dismiss Christian claims because jews know the old

testament prophecies and interpretations of them far

better than any Christian apologist.

 

#10 – “In reality we could never understand the real

pain and suffering for

the word bruise means to crush to break into pieces.

The Passion of

the

Christ is woefully short in telling what fully

happened. It is true

 

the reason Jesus came was to give us a parachute if

you will , to save

 

us from the wrath to come. We don't preach it this

way very often but

it is the truth. “

 

#10A – Mel Gibson is a jew hating roman catholic bigot

and you embrace his film which once again blames jews

for a victimless crime (killing Jesus). You still

have yet to explain why you wish to follow an evil

being you believe exists. It is quite evil to crash a

plane and kill people just to “see†if they use a

parachute. That is almost like justifying the 9/11

attacks. Not far from the truth, since you admit

openly your god is a terrorist.

 

You have not offered a shred of evidence that there is

any afterlife of any kind nor have you validated it

using scripture. In other words, you are giving me

the teaching of other people and claiming it is your

own. The only reason you believe all this stuff is

because someone convinced you it was true and then you

added your own ideas on top of it with your

imagination.

 

 

 

#11 – “On that day in my life I could not longer blame

other

 

lack of spiritual oversight or faulty preaching of the

truth, i had to

cry out, "have mercy on me a sinner. He saved me and

gave me the

promises of the Bible to boot. Now in truth my life

is difficult, the

message i preach is not well receive in most of the

American church,

but

in 80% of the world (outside of the comfort of

America), Christian

people in the millions die for this truth, not denying

Him, because

when

they turned to Him for salvation He did a supernatural

work and lives

in

them. I believe that in your heart, although I do not

know it ,you

have

had to deny that longing for your search to be

fulfilled in finding

peace, and have settled for what your mind can accept.

In truth being

an atheist has it's advantages, like being able to

justify living for

oneself, justifying breaking God's written law and

even ridiculing it

as

being wrong, as well as justifying breaking the law

God has put in the

heart of ever person through conscience. atheism

makes it easier for

you to insinuate i am hypocritical as is my church

because of on line

giving or a reference to the passion of the Christ.

But the one thing

atheism can not do is eradicate the truth, that Jesus

came into the

world to save sinners, of whom i am chief.â€

 

#11A – Actually, you can blame those who LIED to you

and you bought it hook, line and sinker. The guilt

you wish to reminisce about is non-existent. You were

not a “sinner†who needed “savedâ€. Someone made you

BELIEVE it was true and the obvious implications are

what you have been telling me. Life is difficult for

LOTS of people. You aren’t special anymore than them.

The message you preach (if it is the one you are

telling me) is false. There is no scripture really to

support your ideas and the ones you probably attempt

to use are out of their context or mistranslated (such

as “eternal†in greek being aionios). For you to

encourage people to commit suicide at the hand of

other religious nuts by admitting they believe in a

new religion is irresponsible at worst and criminal at

best. Kind of like telling jews during the holocaust

they should not hide being jews and they subsequently

die.

 

And dying for what you believe is true, doesn’t make

the belief true itself. Muslims kill themselves and

others because they believe they have truth.

Buddhists would kill themselves via burning because

they believed something. The reason those “otherâ€

people in other parts of the world claim to have a

‘supernatural’ work is because they were already

brainwashed with superstition, and because they were

most likely poor people who were uneducated.

 

Mike, when you presume to know what someone else

thinks and what they feel without any reason to, that

is very arrogant on your part. I base my examination

of you on what you have told me, not what you don’t

tell me. In my heart are giant chambers which blood

filters through, so my body can be oxygenated and so I

don’t die. Has nothing to do with emotions or

thinking. Actually, my mind can accept gods being

made up because that is what the evidence and

observable data point to. The likelihood of gods

existing is up there with how serious I take the

claims of Santa Claus.

 

Okay, I get you saying atheism has its advantages, but

that is not what makes something true or false (how

much advantage you get from it), although it can help

make us feel better sometimes. And as far as

justifying living for one’s self, I’m still waiting

for you to tell me why that is wrong. You need to

define what you mean when you say things like that.

 

As far as justifying breaking God’s laws and even

ridiculing them as wrong, that would depend. For

example, the places where the bible does encourage

moral behavior (not killing, not stealing, not lying,

loving your neighbor), I have no problem because those

are good rules for everyone to follow because not

following them leads to anarchy and chaos. However,

in spite of the few tidbits of “good†laws God gives

(which is probably from earlier cultures), there are

plenty of bad laws to go with it. I reject the

immoral laws which the biblegod and his followers

endorse such as the death penalty for gays, witches,

adulterers, children, Sabbath breakers, ,etc. That

alone should point out to a rational and ethical

person why they are immoral laws. But on top of that

we can be moral without having a religion or god

belief and there is plenty of data to support that.

 

When God’s laws are immoral, it is RIGHT to break and

disobey them. Just as it would be RIGHT to disobey

Hitler’s racial laws.

 

What you are probably going to do is this. You will

tell me “well, that was the old testament, Jesus came

to set us free from thatâ€, in other words, you could

care less about following God’s laws, because you know

they are wrong to follow for a civilized society. So,

you probably pick and choose which laws you wish to

apply to people today and which ones you wish to

ignore. So, who is really justifying breaking God’s

laws? I know the AG denomination does not endorse

keeping the Sabbath holy, yet that is one of the

tenets of God’s law, yet you would probably try to

justify breaking the Sabbath because of your

interpretation of the new testament. That is far

worse to do for a believer than for an atheist like me

to not follow the immorality of the biblegod’s laws in

the bible. So, you are really doing that which you

accuse me of doing.

 

I’m not trying to eradicate your religion, I just

disagree with it and I would like the world to be free

of religion because religion does not work. It

doesn’t explain anything, it doesn’t help anyone, it

terrorizes children and adults alike, it encourages

insane behavior and extremism, it is responsible for a

large portion of human caused and natural misery and

death. Enough is enough. Let’s try rational thinking

for a change and see how far we can go.

 

 

#12 – “Matt in all sincerity i can not and will not

try to shoot your

arguments full of holes, for i levy that you are very

intelligent, i on the other

 

hand am not. what I have i have been given. I have

seen God's power

and know the transformation he has brought in my life.

I am sincerely

sorry that the church has failed to answer the aching

in your heart,

this is a tragedy. I can assure you by God's grace i

will do all I can

 

to preach the truth, but in spite of my failings and

those in your

life,

what I told you in its simplicity is true. Your sin

and mine makes us

miserable and sets us searching to end the misery, you

tried mens idea

of church, it failed. I did not try that but jumped

into Jesus as the

Bible reveals Him. Please Matt don't turn away from

Jesus come back to

Him.â€

 

#12A – So, you admit you are not intelligent. Well,

that is interesting because you are an associate

pastor of a mainstream church. The real question is

why should anyone follow an unintelligent person who

is ignorant of his own religion? “God’s power†you

claim was brought to you, was your own imagination

misunderstanding natural things that happen. Kind of

like when people think the virgin Mary appears in a

grilled cheese sandwich. You see what you wanted to

see.

 

I don’t think you are sincerely sorry about what the

church has failed to do, since this last message you

sent has been reiterating all their nonsense. That is

interesting, because what you call “men’s idea of

churchâ€, is exactly the same stuff you have been

telling me in this email.

 

So, logically deduced, you are attacking your own

position. In other words, you are condemning yourself

by your own words.

 

I am not a sinner, never sinned, never will. Sin is a

made up religious concept which only does one thing.

Causes guilt in other people. Guilt that is

unnecessary and based on ancient superstitions.

 

You didn’t “jump†into anything. Your idea of Jesus

is not even the way the bible portrays him. You base

it on what others tell you (whether the bible or the

church) and then you add your own imagination to it,

making Jesus a personalized savior, kind of like going

to Burger King and having it “Yahwehâ€.

 

Okay, in spite of everything I have said to show I do

NOT believe Jesus exists, you taunt me by telling me

“Please Matt don't turn away from Jesus come back to

Him.â€. I would assume that since you were raised

catholic, you were taught to believe in Santa claus,

and if that is so, eventually realized Santa Claus

didn’t exist at some point. Well, if someone said

“Please don’t turn away from Santa Claus, come back to

himâ€, would you take them seriously? Because Jesus to

me is like Santa Claus to you.

 

 

“13 – “I feel as though I am through for now. Maybe

it seems weak to you, pie

 

in the sky, or even pious fluff. I assure you Matt I

believe Him and

know this is true. Life comes at us from many

different angles and

presents arguments that make sense in our mind, but

one cannot deny

what

is in the heart. Matt in the end you can't deny all

of what you

learned

from the Bible and you know the truth. Arguments come

and go, but

truth

will remain the same (in spite of the worlds claim to

its

relativity). A lit match will always dissipate

darkness, and in

spite

of your position on Jesus, He still loves you and will

receive you if

you can see Him as He is, the One who died to give you

peace with God

and power to live in pain and the darkness of the

world till He comes

and a real eternal joyful existence when this life

passes away. I

believe it. He is not willing to let you go, that is

why I wrote.

 

I just ask this, in sincerity I spoke to you, please

don't try to pick

holes in my writing to you. If you desire an honest

discussion on this

 

important matter, I would go where ever God wanted me

to go for your

life and eternity are important to Him. Again He is

not willing to let

 

you perish, but bring you to peace with him and

repentance. I would

finally ask you, why would i care to even write in the

first place? I

don't know you from atom. In fact until i saw your

testimony I did not

 

know you existed. In truth i only know Doug through

casual contact so

what gives? Let me say this, "God Himself led me to

call a complete

stranger, who is an avowed atheist because, in Christ

He loves Him

enough to say, don't walk away. Seriously why else

would I write?â€

 

#13A – Mike, you have an arrogance I could only

compare to god complex, yet you also claim you are not

intelligent. You say “I know it is trueâ€. That would

be a lie. To know something is true, one needs

evidence, and experimentation and independent

verification. You have not done that to my

satisfaction to say “I know it is trueâ€. You BELIEVE

it is true, which is far different. I’m so glad you

aren’t my cardiologist or neurologist. You realize

the heart is an organ that pumps blood through the

body? It has nothing to do with beliefs, emotions or

knowledge.

 

I never denied what I learned in the bible. I just

deny it is the truth. When something is shown to be

false because the evidence goes against it, then to

keep admitting it is true is DISHONEST and absurd. I

would rather be honest than to lie to myself about

something I know is false. I guarantee that your

“absolute†truth will change as you change. It is

relative, and that is because new information and

evidence comes in daily which changes how we

understand things, and what was once “true†for people

ends up being “falseâ€.

 

You say “truth†will be the same, but that is hogwash.

Your concept of Jesus was not even codified until the

4th century, so your “truth†did change because of

what Constantine decided to do using the council of

Nicea.

 

Once again, I am surprised that in spite of me clearly

saying Jesus is made up and I do not believe in his

existence, you still somehow think I do, which means

you don’t trust me when I speak for myself. I

mentioned this earlier in my comparison to Santa

claus, but I still mean it. It would be rude and

pointless for someone to tell you to believe in Santa

again. So, at least give me the respect of not

taunting me with your assumptions about me which you

cannot possibly know.

 

I’m not “picking holes†in your writing, but thanks

for admitting it has holes in it. I’m not even going

to tell you how to properly spell simple words or use

a spell checker, because that would really be picking

holes. My rebuttal of your statements to me is not

“picking holesâ€, but rather explaining why I disagree

with you. Remember, you contacted me to find out why

I left Christianity. I am telling you why, but then

for you to turn around and taunt me and be rude just

shows you aren’t really looking for why I left, but

you think you can somehow convince me to come back to

the faith. I am always willing to hear people out if

they make a good argument, provide evidence, or can do

something miraculous which can probably not be

explained to my satisfaction. You have done none of

those to convince me. But, I will always be waiting

in the hopes of being shown I am incorrect.

 

To say “God is not willing to let you perishâ€, and

then to admit people perish because God doesn’t do

anything to stop them from perishing is circular

logic. That means God’s will doesn’t happen, meaning

God is not sovereign. Or it means God is extremely

evil. And in either case, to worship and align

oneself to such a thing would be irresponsible and

vile. I would prefer to do the right thing and be a

good, moral, compassionate, ethical, and loving human

being. Can’t do that if you really believe that the

supreme being doesn’t know the first thing about

morality.

 

Why would you care to write me? Well, you told me it

was because you were researching why people leave the

church. That is the reason you gave and that is good

enough for me. However, this seems more like an

attempt to undermine your cause by preaching at me,

instead of listening to what I have to say. A person

who does pure research is usually neutral when doing

the research to avoid a personal bias. Obviously you

didn’t do that.

 

You didn’t know I existed before you read my

testimony? Well I didn’t know you existed until you

wrote me email. Not quite sure what your point is in

saying that. You wrote to me specifically most likely

because : I mentioned my denomination, I mentioned

Pastor Doug via his job position and location of that

position. So you felt it was “closer†to home, and

felt obligated to write me. I don’t mind, in fact, I

enjoy a challenge and debate and hopefully I can be

persuaded to be convinced. I love being shown I’m

wrong, believe it or not.

 

So, you tell me you are writing me to learn why people

leave the faith (a statement of inquiry, not being

sure why it is), and then you turn around and tell me

why I left. This is a classic apologist tactic of

bait and switch. Using deception to get people

cornered. I don’t mind, because I bite back.

 

Anyway, I am still interested in discussing things

with you and I hope you don’t take offense to what I

said, but I must correct you on the things you get

wrong and I will say good day and hopefully we can

talk more.

 

Sincerely,

 

Matt

[brad_religion]

Just a note : He finally called me yesterday and said he could only talk on the church's cell phone for a few minutes. Then he proceeded to take over the conversation for about 2 hours. I was tired, getting a migraine, so I was irritable. Anyway, he never addressed the arguments I made against his statments in the email and basically ignored what I was saying. I wonder why a man would do something so rude and childish, but hey, I can't read the mind of crazy people. Anyway, he said he was involved in "perversion" which I mentioned was christianese for watching porn. He said yeah, but I pointed out that it is a victimless crime. Women in porn are paid more than the men, they do it of their own free will, and so what is wrong with that? Then he gave me a ridiculous example like if I had a daughter who became a porn star, and I rented porn and she was in it, would I watch it? I said no, I would find another one to watch. He thinks that is "evil" for some reason. Of course, I don't think if I have kids they will be porn stars. The odds are not likely. I asked him how can he condemn porn, while at the same time preaches from a book that has porn, violence and intolerance in it? I mean, he justifies Lot sleeping with his 2 daughters, but for some reason it is "wrong" if I watched a porn with my daughter in it.

 

Anyway, my blood was boiling after hearing him preach to me and lie about "miracles" he supposedly did. I put down the nice face and I think I cursed a bit and pointed out that if he thinks talking snakes existed, he is an idiot. I think it is perfectly okay to say an idiotic thing is idiotic, it doesn't deserve respect. After this phone call, I was having a bad panic attack because he basically caused me to have bad memories of my trauma in the church. I should have known better, but I thought I could handle it since I have been out of christianity for 2 years.

 

Anyway, I only have one more email to post, which was after our phone call. His nice Jesus smile attitude wasn't so nice. I then left him a nice owning voice mail on his cell phone and curse words were not limited.

[brad_religion]

Pastor Mike's final email :

 

Matt,

 

Interesting conversation yesterday. that is the first time i have

spoken

with someone who hated the God that much, and shredded me for my belief

 

in talking snakes. I consider it a good experience all the same. i was

shocked at your anger over me saying you were never a Christian. You

will find though that my statement is backed up by scripture....

 

*1 John 2:18 - 19 (KJV) *^18 Little children, it is the last time: and

as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many

Antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. ^19 They went

out

from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they

would

/no doubt/ have continued with us: but /they went out/, that they might

 

be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

Seems to me that a person so dead set against the faith of the Bible

would not have a problem with the statement you were never a Christian.

 

Oh and by the way i thought someone with such intelligence could see

through the revisionist view of history, science, and religion that you

 

spewed forth. This garbage is as changing as waves in the ocean. The

articles and research you hold so dearly to changes as fast, and quite

frankly is debunked as fast as someone can type it up on the Internet.

So quite honestly your arguments don't hold water and what your really

smart at is taking someone else's hate and rationalizing it as ethical.

 

I was quite perplexed how a moral and ethical man could continue in a

behavior like pornography that offends his wife and the people involved

 

in it. i was perplexed by how you answered the question of how you

would

feel about seeing your own daughter in one, to which you said,

(summarized), "I would not like it, I would just get another one",

friend that is twisted. but then a statement came to mind....

 

*John 3:18 - 20 (NKJV) *^18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned;

 

but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not

believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ^19 And this is

the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved

 

darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. ^20 For

everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the

light,

lest his deeds should be exposed.

 

You hate Christianity so much because God exposes your evil deed and

quite honestly before you learned about sin and its penalty later in

life you did not have that many problems with the faith, that is why

you

stuck around for 17 years. How an intelligent man, say he is moral and

ethic while engaging in a foul and harmful sin, like porn is the most

amazing leap of faith I have ever seen. I don't condemn you, your own

evil deeds do, and you are only a breath away from seeing the truth,

but

then it will be to late.

 

So thats it, I have nothing further to say, if you e-mail I won't read

it because in all honest your arguments are flimsy fluff and not based

in fact, but the made up life and research of hateful people whose only

 

contribution to the world is to corrupt the truth. The mercy of God

says

if you come back he will take you and forgive. I hope you do, really.

in

the end that is real love and one of the greatest proof or real faith,

love that can forgive such hatred, and blindness. Come to Jesus Matt He

 

is your only hope as well as the only hope of the world. I may be a

dumb, unintelligent idiot, who insults your "intelligence", but I plead

 

with your to let go of these baseless arguments and come to Christ.

 

 

Last Communication,

 

Mike

[Skiergirl24]

That Pastor couldn't find his ass with both hands and a flashlight! The man cannot string 2 words together to make a sentence! SCARY!

[Monk]

"Here is the problem, every pastor I meet says

something like they have the "real" Jesus while other

pastors have the "fake" Jesus. Imagine if you were to

go into McDonalds, and everyone working there is

dressed the same, sounds the same, claims they are

"real" employees, and the other people working there

are imposters, they all quote from the same work

manual but can't agree, they all claim to have the

same boss, but the boss is never there to validate

which one is his "real" employee. That is exactly

what Christianity does."

 

Brilliant analogy! I love it!

 

*********

 

"was told that Jesus could make all your sky's gray"

 

Well, what do you know? In the midst of so many logical fallacies, Pastor Mike DID say something intelligent (even if he didn't mean to!).

 

***********

 

As to the situation as a whole...well, to me it all goes back to the old addage about giving advice. Don't give advice unless someone asks for it (and if they DO ask for it, you still shouldn't give advice) . Actually, in most aspects of life, I say live and let live, but organized religion makes it so hard. That's partially why I disagree with proselytizing (both theistic and atheistic). If someone is curious, answer their questions. Otherwise leave people alone! It's not like we're not already bombarded with enough propaganda without all the doom and gloom, guilt-ridden, fear-mongering crap of dogmas like christianity.

[Monk]

Brad_religion/Matt:

 

On reading that last email, I thought, "there is NO WAY that last email from the pastor was written by the same individual that wrote the first couple (unless, of course, he was drunk or high when he wrote the first ones)." But then it just occurred to me that he summoned the last remaining brain cell he possessed into one concerted effort and became intelligible.

 

It must have been one heck of a phone call to shut him down so quick!

 

Considering the circumstances (him contacting you, his rudeness, etc), I think you handled the situation very well.

[Grandpa Harley]

Fundies, like sharks and wolves, operate in a 'pack' structure... only without the nobility of purpose one finds in sharks or wolves....

[Monk]

"Fundies, like sharks and wolves, operate in a 'pack' structure... only without the nobility of purpose one finds in sharks or wolves...."

 

Yeah, when I first read it, I was sure it was a tag team effort, but looking more closely, I think it WAS the same guy. That's why I went back and edited my last post.

 

No doubt he was consulting others, and they may or may not have been helping him edit his correspondences. I think his quick and ungraceful exit is an indication that someone above him (the senior pastor or whatever) probably told him to shut this down. Or else "god" told him he was outmatched and needed to bow out while he could still hold on to his own faith.

[brad_religion]

UPDATE : Hey everyone, he just called me back after I left that voice mail. I did apologize in the sense that I was kind of crude and explained that my behavior was more along the lines of PTSD which is why I lost my cool. But, I suppose he isn't a complete asshole, he does talk like a pretty nice guy, but on certain issues, he does kind of go straightforward into personalized statements.

 

Here's the thing, I explained that I was once like him in feeling the need to reach out to people I thought were given up on by christians to convert, so the desire he has is how I felt as a believer. So, I can't be too hard on him, but at the same time, some of the things he said were offensive to me because if it was any other realm of discussion or another religion, he surely would be offended. So, we both were calm and said our piece and he said if I ever want to talk, to feel free. Although he seems to talk more than I talked because pastors I think generally are used to preaching on the pulpit in a form of monologue, so of course when they preach on a personal level, it might be the same thing.

 

Anyway, I was pissed off, but I still wanted to get your opinions on what he wrote to me. I also had 1 hand tied behind my back on the phone yesterday because I was having a migraine, and so it was hard to think straight without going all over the place. My brain works faster than my mouth, so I tend to drift lol.

 

I feel justified publishing these emails because he told me he contacted my old youth pastor and said he might contact me, so we'll see where it goes.

[Spoomonkey]

Fascinating and disturbing read. Thanks for posting it - I am sorry that this guy brought distress to you. What a heartless moron.

 

Spoomonkey

[Deva]

I couldn't read all of it, because it was so stupid it was making my brain hurt. It was also often unintentionally funny.

 

These pastors can often seem very friendly, that is how they get hold of you. Its part of the brainwashing technique. If you want to see him or communicate with him, that is your business, but if he upsets you, it might be wise to sever all contact.

[mwc]

Then he gave me a ridiculous example like if I had a daughter who became a porn star, and I rented porn and she was in it, would I watch it?

Hell yeah I'd watch it! She gets mad when I jerk it when she's doin' it live...

 

Oh...and I thought you did great on the emails too.

 

mwc

[SWIM]

Here is the problem, every pastor I meet says

something like they have the "real" Jesus while other

pastors have the "fake" Jesus. Imagine if you were to

go into McDonalds, and everyone working there is

dressed the same, sounds the same, claims they are

"real" employees, and the other people working there

are imposters, they all quote from the same work

manual but can't agree, they all claim to have the

same boss, but the boss is never there to validate

which one is his "real" employee. That is exactly

what Christianity does.

 

Nicely said! Great example!!

[Grandpa Harley]

I couldn't read all of it, because it was so stupid it was making my brain hurt. It was also often unintentionally funny.

 

These pastors can often seem very friendly, that is how they get hold of you. Its part of the brainwashing technique. If you want to see him or communicate with him, that is your business, but if he upsets you, it might be wise to sever all contact.

 

[Deva] TEH STUPID!!! IT BURNZ!!!!!![/Deva]

[Llwellyn]

Many thanks for posting this. This thread is definitely one for my saved archives. Think of your experience as being attacked by a virus intent on "reformatting" your brain to contain the viral Christian ideas of "divine curses" and "Christ's divinity." Your exchange illustrates so many of the classic techniques of the Christian brainwashing system. It is so rude of Christians to do this. At least people with a cold sneeze into their sleeves rather than into other peoples' faces.

[PoeticLicence]

"You believe God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself."

 

Brad, If someone had explained the "gospel" to me this succinctly and clearly thirty years ago, I might not be in this complex psychological mess that I'm in now. Thanks. A bit late for me, but thanks. Maybe It'll help me keep perspective through it all.

[ShackledNoMore]

Wow.

 

That exchange illustrates so many things. And it's also familiar. I used to be in the Ass of God church--the pastors progression is very consistent with the modus operandi I have seen for some.

 

Most striking were the intelligent, well thought arguments you provided, and how he didn't, how he COULDN'T even try to address them. Once backed into a corner with a good argument he lashed out in anger. In his final written diatribe he dismisses your arguments as flimsy without ever haven given the first, most cursory counter argument!

 

Holy crap! If I were arguing something with you, I'd find it incumbent upon myself to provide evidence, sound reasoning, and to support my claims.

 

Then again, I did examine my xian beliefs, as you did, and came to the same conclusion anyone would who is both honest and intelligent: Pastor Mike is wrong.

 

I don't know exactly what goes through his head. Being duped and then abandoning your fantasies in the light of reason and evidence I understand. I guess he is scared, or doesn't like what he sees inside himself (perhaps helped along by that dose of guilt he got as a kid) and covers his ears and closes his eyes and yells "LA LA LA LA LAAAAAAA" when confronted with an intelligent refutation of his beliefs. But one things for sure: the net outcome IS abusive.

[Llwellyn]

Could you direct us to your original deconversion testimony that the Pastor found? I would appreciate reading it.

[brad_religion]

Could you direct us to your original deconversion testimony that the Pastor found? I would appreciate reading it.

Sure thing

 

http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2006/07...n-to-happy.html

[Scott_In_Michigan]

I'm a little late in chiming in here, but I can't resist.

 

First of all, this pastor is quite a piece of work. I cannot believe how poorly he is approaching this situation. Good work in sticking to your guns Brad. Hang in there.

 

If you are still conversing with this guy, I would encourage you to bring up a point to him, assuming it has not already come up. Ask him how he feels about you coming to your own conclusions about God, spirituality, and religion, free of the intimidation and bias of those who adhere to ANY religion or similar belief system.

 

I imagine, based on what I read of his mails to you, that he will probably feel that there is no decision to be made -- Christ is the only way! Any pastor, or any person for that matter, who is truly respectful of the spirituality of others, would encourage you to do your own religion/spirituality/God exploration and learning so that whatever you decide is right (for you), it will be your own conclusions, and not the conclusions of others that have either been forced/intimidated upon you or that you were raised into.

 

To explain precisely what I mean, I can give an example. This happened to me just a few months ago, and I walked away very, very surprised. My wife and I had, just days previously, gone through our first conflict, and it involved some underlying problems in our marriage that our personalities are able to sort of sweep under the rug, so to speak. So, in order to find some quick help in dealing with the problems, we met with my wife's former pastor and his wife, who happen to be very close friends of my wife. Rather than getting into details about that, I'll jump to the relevant part of what happened.

 

A month or so prior to this I told my wife about my deconversion. She took it rather hard at first, but seems to be okay with it now. Anyway, this pastor brings up my decision to leave Christianity, and I am feeling rather apprehensive about the conversation that could take place. During the one hour drive to meet, I was stewing inside as I pondered how I would probably be questioned and drilled on why I didn't believe in Christ anymore. So when the topic came up, they (the pastor & wife couple) asked me what made me decide what I did about Christianity. I explained it the best I could, and then was both shocked and relieved when they both said, "That's interesting..." and nodded. Then the pastor told me that he went through the same exact process as a teenager and it lasted into college. He told me that he feels that everyone should have to decide what they believe, rather than assuming the beliefs of those around them. He told me that he was encouraging his own daughter to do this for herself as well. Now, all that said, he did make a point of explaining what made him feel that Christianity is right. It boiled down to him not being able to disprove the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ.

 

I don't think that many pastors would do this, which is sad. If they truly believe that Christianity is the truth, and that all evidence a person can gather about religion would lead that person to Christianity, then pastors should encourage people to educate themselves and form their own conclusions about what they want to believe. Of course, that isn't the case, so most pastors won't make such an encouragement.

 

So, take that as you will. If this guy is really respectful of you, and cares about your need to feel absolutely sure that what you believe in is the real deal, he should support you. If not, then he should ask himself, "WWJD?" It might serve him well.

[LloydDobler]

I enjoyed your deconstruction of the parachute analogy. It's so painfully clear when you think it through. I always forget to do that at the time I'm in the argument.

 

he said he was involved in "perversion" which I mentioned was christianese for watching porn. He said yeah,

 

He was lying because porn is easier to admit to. He's gay. If he ever fucks with you again you should hit on him. Talk a lot about how confused you are, assure him you'll be totally discreet, and see if he really will make that drive up to PA.

[Grandpa Harley]

If he admitted to gay, then he'd be into bestiality. If bestiality, it's probably kiddies...

[Grandpa Harley]

During the one hour drive to meet, I was stewing inside as I pondered how I would probably be questioned and drilled on why I didn't believe in Christ anymore. So when the topic came up, they (the pastor & wife couple) asked me what made me decide what I did about Christianity. I explained it the best I could, and then was both shocked and relieved when they both said, "That's interesting..."

 

BTW, I'd not have taken the battle he wanted onto his territory. An hours drive may as well be on his Tax deductible gasoline.... The idea "if they want to talk to me then they can talk to me in my fucking hammock while I have a brew... I'm free Sunday mornings..." springs to mind...

 

After all they had nothing you wanted, and you had everything they wanted...

[Jennywocky]

I couldn't make it through all of the pastor's e-mails to you.

 

I think overall the thing that bothers me most about this approach is how the situation is couched:

 

1. Here is someone who needs Jesus.

2. I will convince him that Jesus is the right way.

3. That will make him all better.

 

This is very much how I experienced faith as a teenager and when I went to college. The emphasis was on intellectual conversion and convincing someone to do lip-service to God, and meanwhile do a bunch of nice things if you can to help soften them up and prove your way is better. Usually this is the "evangelistic outreach" mentality. Just convert people, and conversion happens through the brain.

 

There is also an emphasis on numbers of people converted, and focus on "going to heaven and being right with God."

 

As I got older and my beliefs veered out of Bibleland and I had to walk into some very parched and bone-dry territory in my life, that methodology just seemed more and more crass and wrong-headed to me... and left a bad taste in my mouth.

 

If the pastor really wanted to show you that his way was "right," what he'd be doing was actually entering your world and being a person who was there for you, who you could trust, and who wouldn't be judging your spirituality and trying to convert you to his way of thinking. The whole distaste here was because you knew he was only talking to you because, at a very coarse level, his goal was to convert you... not actually have any sort of meaningful relationship with you (aka friend).

 

A really spiritual person knows what they believe, and they live according to what they believe... and converting people is not the focus of their faith. People who believe in Jesus would do better just be being friends with their neighbors, being shoulders to cry on when bad things happen, encouraging when someone's in a hard spot, rejoicing/partying with people when good stuff happens. And leave the preaching at home.

 

Preaching is usually just a cheap substitute for actually living out one's faith.

 

I'm sorry if I sound preachy here. Just reading all this, though, reminded me (and not fondly) of all the pressure and judgment I felt when I was involved in Christian groups as a teen and coed and how badly it messed me up. It took me awhile to figure out why it was so bad, but this was it.