To Come Out, Or Not To Come Out

[RisenTree]

So, here I am--haven't been on this forum in ages. I'm an agnostic, probably soon-to-be atheist--long story; the simple reason is that I just haven't sorted through everything yet. Perhaps that time will come, perhaps not. Who knows. At this point, I don't consider it a major issue in the grand scheme of things.

 

What is a bigger issue is whether to come clean to my family about my agnosticism. Just from conversations I've had with them and the political beliefs I now hold, it's obvious that I've swung away from conservative beliefs to ones that are more open-minded. But they don't realize that I'm an agnostic; the last they checked, I was still a liberal Christian. That's still quite a shift, as I grew up a fundamentalist--arguably even more conservative than my parents.

 

Anyway. I read some of the stories here, and they remind me of why I've been so hesitant to come out and just say it. But should I just get this over with? And are these horror stories really that common?

[Dave]

I say come out. Everyone that comes out makes it that much easier for the next person to come out. Once enough come out it will no longer have any shock value. It worked for the gays.

 

The horror stories? They do happen so you have to go easy with some people. I make it known that I am an Atheist and in 53 years have not experienced one of the horror stories as told by some here. I've just been lucky.

 

It does help others to come out. Recently I had to go to a Veterans Hospital. Since I've never been before I had to sign up. The processor was Hispanic. He had all kinds of Hispanic items about his office. On the VA form I had to fill out it asked about religious preference and listed about 15 different christian choices, one or two other religions, and "other". I told him I wanted

Atheist put down. He looked puzzled. I then said; "What if the section about "ethnicity" said just "White" and "other". How would you feel?

 

He then crossed out "other" and, in big letters, wrote; Atheist. Then he said he'd check into having Atheist added to the form.

[SWIM]

So, here I am--haven't been on this forum in ages. I'm an agnostic, probably soon-to-be atheist--long story; the simple reason is that I just haven't sorted through everything yet. Perhaps that time will come, perhaps not. Who knows. At this point, I don't consider it a major issue in the grand scheme of things.

 

What is a bigger issue is whether to come clean to my family about my agnosticism. Just from conversations I've had with them and the political beliefs I now hold, it's obvious that I've swung away from conservative beliefs to ones that are more open-minded. But they don't realize that I'm an agnostic; the last they checked, I was still a liberal Christian. That's still quite a shift, as I grew up a fundamentalist--arguably even more conservative than my parents.

 

Anyway. I read some of the stories here, and they remind me of why I've been so hesitant to come out and just say it. But should I just get this over with? And are these horror stories really that common?

 

 

I hinted around for years at being an agnostic to me wife, but when I outright told her point blank that I don't believe *anything* in the bible, and that I did not believe in jesus the shit hit the fan.

 

We don't talk much about it nowadays, except the occasional arguement ending in hard feelings.

 

To each his own, but coming out has not done my life any good at all.

[RisenTree]

See, part of why I haven't come out is that I want to be firm in my reasons why I'm no longer a Christian. To be able to say X, Y, and Z with calmness and confidence is, I think, much more forceful than coming across as belligerent or scared, even if I have every right to be both. Sigh, I don't know. It's just that once this bridge is crossed, there is no going back.

[RisenTree]

and just to be clear (why can't I edit posts here?), I am pretty convinced in the falsehood of fundamentalism. It's the open advocation of that falsehood to people who could twist that around and sling it back at me--that's where it gets tough.

[Kelli]

I came out to my parents subtly. If religion came up in conversation, at first I would either not say much or say something not 'in your face.' After a while they seemed to get it and I came and told them outright. Actually, my Dad doesn't really care, as he's not BA, but Catholic and I left the Catholic church when I was 13. It's my Mom and my younger sis that are fairly fundie.

 

Sometimes dropping subtle hints is the way to break it. It's like sticking your toe in the cold water as opposed to just jumping in -- much less shock factor. The process could take months or longer.

 

My Mom still talks to me as if she believes I am a fundie, but she knows I'm not. I respect her beliefs, as she doesn't try to shove them down my throat. And I always have my Dad to back me up, LOL.

[Dave]

See, part of why I haven't come out is that I want to be firm in my reasons why I'm no longer a Christian. To be able to say X, Y, and Z with calmness and confidence is, I think, much more forceful than coming across as belligerent or scared, even if I have every right to be both. Sigh, I don't know. It's just that once this bridge is crossed, there is no going back.

That's honest, and understandable. Until you have all your ducks in a row, and believe that's they way they're supposed to be lined up, stay as you are. If you never come to that conclusion, that's fine too. Not everyone has to be the same.

[Dave]

I would say don't be so fast to come out. If the person to whom you would make the big revelation is an openminded person, you may be ok. If the person is old and it would hurt them....NO. Remember, they are family and you could potentially hurt any inheritance you might receive. You might unneededly hurt a relationship. I would say gage the situation on an individual basis. If you can do it without causing grief that will spillover and hurt other people, fine, if not don't do it outright.

Very true. Especially with family, pick your battles carefully.

[ShackledNoMore]

Big horror story checking in here. I won't recount it here--I've posted the basic story before, but it was bad enough so I keep track of whether my mother is still alive by checking the social security death records a couple of times a year, and yes, the primary catalyst was because I came out.

 

The fact is, there is a range of family reactions from total non-event, to terrible persecution from the family or total estrangement, and everything in between (and from what I've read it's usually in between the extremes). Often it is the ex-c who chooses to distance him/herself from an abusive family.

 

You probably have the best feel for how your particular family will react. That's probably a better gauge than how common or rare the horror stories are. Sometimes it's not as bad or worse than you'd think, but your guess will probably be in the ballpark. Take stock of the situation so you can be prepared what to expect, and to help make the decision.

 

I couldn't fault a person for either coming out or not (and for some of those still young and dependent on their families, there may be a very practical reason for not coming out). As for me, as the owner of a horror story looking back, I think it was for the best: I got to drop a double life, and if your family does turn it into a horror story, then you really didn't have much of a family to lose to begin with.

[RisenTree]

I came out to my parents subtly. If religion came up in conversation, at first I would either not say much or say something not 'in your face.' After a while they seemed to get it and I came and told them outright. Actually, my Dad doesn't really care, as he's not BA, but Catholic and I left the Catholic church when I was 13. It's my Mom and my younger sis that are fairly fundie.

 

Sometimes dropping subtle hints is the way to break it. It's like sticking your toe in the cold water as opposed to just jumping in -- much less shock factor. The process could take months or longer.

 

My Mom still talks to me as if she believes I am a fundie, but she knows I'm not. I respect her beliefs, as she doesn't try to shove them down my throat. And I always have my Dad to back me up, LOL.

 

I've thought about doing this one. Using strategies such as, the next time my dad asks me if I believe in Jesus as my Savior, asking if he would still love me if I didn't. Risky yes, and it may tip my hand, but part of me thinks that at some point I simply have to drive this process to completion.

 

Also let me add that I made a career change a few years ago, and they did NOT take it well the first few days. But once the pity party died down, their egos recovered, and now they're okay with it. Not great with it, but they accept my decision.

 

Big horror story checking in here. I won't recount it here--I've posted the basic story before, but it was bad enough so I keep track of whether my mother is still alive by checking the social security death records a couple of times a year, and yes, the primary catalyst was because I came out.

 

The fact is, there is a range of family reactions from total non-event, to terrible persecution from the family or total estrangement, and everything in between (and from what I've read it's usually in between the extremes). Often it is the ex-c who chooses to distance him/herself from an abusive family.

 

You probably have the best feel for how your particular family will react. That's probably a better gauge than how common or rare the horror stories are. Sometimes it's not as bad or worse than you'd think, but your guess will probably be in the ballpark. Take stock of the situation so you can be prepared what to expect, and to help make the decision.

 

I couldn't fault a person for either coming out or not (and for some of those still young and dependent on their families, there may be a very practical reason for not coming out). As for me, as the owner of a horror story looking back, I think it was for the best: I got to drop a double life, and if your family does turn it into a horror story, then you really didn't have much of a family to lose to begin with.

 

Yeah. See, I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that to come out would be a short-term loss, but a long term gain. Did many of you have the same results?

[fallenleaf]

Yeah. See, I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that to come out would be a short-term loss, but a long term gain. Did many of you have the same results?

 

I had a terrible experience the first time. I say, "first time," because it was so terrible that I went back to pretending for a couple more years. But, I expected it to go badly... I knew my family well enough to know it wasn't going to be smooth. Unless you have some huge reason to expect it to be the end of the world... you probably will be better off.

 

The second time, it was bad for a while. I had the forums here, at the time, and was able to rant and moan and get comfort here. Those threads are long lost... I believe. But, after a few weeks, it settled down. It's not as extreme as "ShackledNoMore"s experience... I am not completely cut-off from the family now. They tolerate me for the most part... and actually get along with me as long as religion doesn't come up. There are still regular attempts to "save" me and get me to church. I ignore them or shut them down right away. And life goes on. It's not much of a gain in the family area.

 

Coming out to my family allowed me to come out to friends in my hometown. I was already out with all my friends at college and away from home. By being able to come out to my friends... some of them took it well and accepted it... others ignore me. But that is better than before because it's authentic now. I'd say I gained a lot in the friend area by being out.

 

I am not completely open about it. People I work with might guess (since I tend to be a little crude at times) but none know for certain. I could lose my job over it... depending on how much of a stink people wanted to make about it and who cared. I don't make a point of it around people I don't know. And am more likely to walk away when religion comes up than I am to comment -- around people I know. On the streets, if someone tries to convert me, that's another matter.

 

Still, it's better... for the most part. Some of the worst times of my life, right after, but over-all I am glad I did it.

[Tealeaf]

I say think about it like this:

 

If you and everyone else were knowingly covered in shit, it would be acceptable right?

 

But would you still not want to get all that smelly gross shit off of you the first chance you got? Would you hesitate especially when the hose is just sitting there, dripping?

 

 

If I were ever forced into a belief at anytime in my life I would vomit and then die fending off the ideals of others.

 

I say fuck whoever takes your true belief (ie hapiness) out of the equation of how they feel about you.

[mwc]

Anyway. I read some of the stories here, and they remind me of why I've been so hesitant to come out and just say it. But should I just get this over with? And are these horror stories really that common?

I came out, over a long time, with my wife. Went great. Then she had some sort of "relapse" of the crazy kind and it all went fucking horribly wrong. Then she dared me to come out to my mom and I was so not thinking at the time I did that in the worst possible way and that went fucking horribly wrong.

 

I've mended most of my relationships except my marriage. It's still screwed. I don't talk openly about most things anymore since I'm afraid of how they'll be received. Before I just talked and never worried about the "blow back" but now I never know if this will be the thing that maybe, if not today, six hours or six months down the road will cause a shit storm like the deconversion did (and to top it off her parents are fucking atheists and always have been but whatever). I used to have a good relationship with my in-laws and now I don't see them ever as a result of things that were said/done during this time. I have a nephew (my brother-in-law's kid) I've never seen in person and two other of their kids I haven't seen in a couple years. It kind of sucks but that seems to be the price.

 

My mom still worries about me and brings up religion more than I'd care for but she generally keeps it civil. She talks about a study on how prayer can cure people (and I tell her she misread it and to read it again so she does and drops the subject...she's reasonable that way). We went to a Dead Sea Scroll exhibit and religion barely entered the picture even though it could have. So we've reached a point where we are pretty good most of the time (we both cross the line from time to time).

 

My coming out has inspired my nephew (my brother's wife's kid) to admit to having my same basic beliefs (none) and so he doesn't really fake it anymore so things seem better for him not growing up living a lie.

 

I'd sure do it all differently if I had it to do again. I might just keep to myself actually. I've become stronger in some ways but I do feel alienated quite a bit. Especially in these "holiday" months.

 

mwc

[Checkmate]

toll booth,

 

In the FAQ section there is this Breaking The "Bad" News, wherein people recount their methods of outing themselves and results. Give it a look.

 

Essentially, the HOW, WHEN, to WHOM you reveal yourself depends and varies upon you, your audience and the dynamics of your relationship(s). No one here can tell you what to do, nor can we gauge how people will react. Too many imponderables.

 

Like Dave said earlier, I'd love for ALL unbelievers simply to "come out," but for purely selfish motives. The more of us do it, the easier we make it for others, such as yourself. However, I also recognize how hard it can be on you, so I don't *push* my radical views. You are the one who must live with your decision, not me.

 

Also, there is the aspect that what you "believe" or DON'T is none of anyone's damned business! So I find myself floating between two polar extremes -- tell them the truth and let the chips fall where they may, OR tell them to go fuck themselves because it's none of their business (and let those chips fall where they may also).

 

I'm sure I didn't help you with any of this, but that's the reality of life. No "Easy Answers" for anyone.

 

~ Checkmate

[R. S. Martin]

Also let me add that I made a career change a few years ago, and they did NOT take it well the first few days. But once the pity party died down, their egos recovered, and now they're okay with it. Not great with it, but they accept my decision.

 

Just so you're aware of it, career change and deconversion are two completely different things. They are not even in the same universe so to speak.

 

Career change is the secular world, and transient. Deconversion is spiritual and, if they are strict fundy, they believe the consequences are eternal. For them, there are huge responsibility factors here. At least, that is what I found with my family. It is not something on which they can compromise. They believe they are accountable to an Almighty Judge who will throw them into hell if they don't keep on your case. That can be worse than a nightmare for you. That is why I asked my family to pray and trust the Holy Spirit to convict me. I figure that way they feel free in their own consciences and I will have them off my back.

 

I don't recommend coming out unless there is reason to do so. In my case, it was an accident. I did go through a period where I felt I should tell my siblings what I believed and I wrote it up several times, but I never got around to sending it. I don't know what I would do if I gave it deliberate thought the way you are doing. The horror stories are as bad as they sound because nobody would make this stuff up. They are common enough to take them very seriously. I think you have been given some very good advice. Just be aware that a few people who responded never were a Christian.

[R. S. Martin]

and just to be clear (why can't I edit posts here?), I am pretty convinced in the falsehood of fundamentalism.

 

You need a certain number of posts to your name and then you can edit.

 

It's the open advocation of that falsehood to people who could twist that around and sling it back at me--that's where it gets tough.

 

The really tough part is that they believe it's as true as the ground on which they walk--no, they believe it's more real, more true, than the material world. That is the real problem as I see it. There is no reasoning with that attitude that I know of. On top of that, they think that without the Holy Spirit a person doesn't know anything really worth knowing and if you're not a Christian obviously you don't have the Holy Spirit.

 

Or maybe your folks are the type who refuse to believe that it's possible to deconvert. Lots of people on here have that experience and they have found that to be extremely frustrating, too. Or they say you never were a Christian in the first place. There's all kinds of crazy stuff the fundies will say--none of which corresponds with reality as we experience it. And it can nearly drive you crazy!

[R. S. Martin]

I say fuck whoever takes your true belief (ie hapiness) out of the equation of how they feel about you.

 

That's all good and fine. But we're talking about dealing with the possible death of all human relationships a person knows. Or worse.

 

Given that humans are social beings, this is very serious business.

[Tealeaf]

I realise this.

 

Sorry, it just seems so simple to me because this all seems so absolutly insane to me. I never have (and never will have) to go through the same experience.

 

What I do know is that I went through life and school.... When my "best friends" started taking my pogs and slammers..I stopped speaking to them. When more of my "friends" started saying bad stuff about me, I stopped speaking to them. When my friends got into drugs and other such activities, I stopped speaking to them. etc. You don't bother with people who don't bother with you. Even if they seem to be all you have. It will just get harder to cut it off as time goes on.

 

Religious people are just a childish as the incidents described above. If they are that hardcore, you can't reason with them, and that's all. Hell, isn't it in your doctrines to completely shut off your minds to all outside reason?

 

I know that if I were gay or worse, a Christian and had to confess, I'd do it as boldy and up-standingly as possible and HOPE to strike some cords. If don't hit any, that person is actually worth it, I think.

[R. S. Martin]

I realise this.

 

Sorry, it just seems so simple to me because this all seems so absolutly insane to me. I never have (and never will have) to go through the same experience.

 

What I do know is that I went through life and school.... When my "best friends" started taking my pogs and slammers..I stopped speaking to them. When more of my "friends" started saying bad stuff about me, I stopped speaking to them. When my friends got into drugs and other such activities, I stopped speaking to them. etc. You don't bother with people who don't bother with you. Even if they seem to be all you have. It will just get harder to cut it off as time goes on.

 

Apparently life is fairly black and white to you at this point. You are not asking any ethical questions regarding your former friends' motivations for treating you as they did and whether perhaps you provoked them to treat you badly. You are not asking whether by cutting them out of your life you were cutting off their only "lifeline" to a better life, and thereby plunging their (yet unborn and unconceived) children into a home of crime and hopelessness. Nor are you asking whether you have a right to cut them out of your life. You are in the enviable position of knowing you are right. Most fundamentalists are like that, too.

 

I am NOT saying that you are fundamentalist; I am pointing out the similarities of thinking. I would also like to point out that most, if not all, of us raised in religion were taught to ask ourselves those questions. I was asking myself those questions when I was half your age. It's part of Christian up-bringing, in my experience.

 

You say not to bother people who don't bother with you. That would be easy. I think it was in this thread that someone said that often the apostate has to cut contact with abusive family. That should tell you that the family does "bother" with the apostate. But the "bother" is extremely unpleasant and unhealthy. For my own well-being I have to cut them off. They do not honor that. If you read my posts in this thread you will see what I mean. They insist on writing letters and making phone calls--on invading my space. I am forced to either put up with it or change my phone number and move to another address. Given that the people I am living with are my surogate family, moving would be traumatic for me.

 

Also, you mention friends. You do not mention your own parents and immediate family. I don't think too many people on this thread are terribly concerned about friends. We're talking about immediate family. Friends are negotiable. It's primary human relationships--spouse, parents, children, siblings--people who define who we are that we are talking about. We're also talking about life and death in the case where a person might get kicked onto the street in the dead of winter with no place to go, esp. in a Bible belt area where everyone is Christian and won't take in an atheist.

 

These are some of the items people have to weigh when deciding whether or not to come out. I am not sure why this has to be spelled out for you like this because most of these items were mentioned in this thread. Perhaps reading a couple dozen Testimonies of Former Christians might help you get a better idea of what it is we are talking about.

[qadeshet]

Religion and politics are good subjects for provoking an argument, if that is what you want. Otherwise, mind your own business and be honest if you are asked.

[RisenTree]

toll booth,

 

In the FAQ section there is this Breaking The "Bad" News, wherein people recount their methods of outing themselves and results. Give it a look.

 

Essentially, the HOW, WHEN, to WHOM you reveal yourself depends and varies upon you, your audience and the dynamics of your relationship(s). No one here can tell you what to do, nor can we gauge how people will react. Too many imponderables.

 

Like Dave said earlier, I'd love for ALL unbelievers simply to "come out," but for purely selfish motives. The more of us do it, the easier we make it for others, such as yourself. However, I also recognize how hard it can be on you, so I don't *push* my radical views. You are the one who must live with your decision, not me.

 

Also, there is the aspect that what you "believe" or DON'T is none of anyone's damned business! So I find myself floating between two polar extremes -- tell them the truth and let the chips fall where they may, OR tell them to go fuck themselves because it's none of their business (and let those chips fall where they may also).

 

I'm sure I didn't help you with any of this, but that's the reality of life. No "Easy Answers" for anyone.

 

~ Checkmate

 

Thanks, I'll take a look at that thread.

 

and just to be clear (why can't I edit posts here?), I am pretty convinced in the falsehood of fundamentalism.

 

You need a certain number of posts to your name and then you can edit.

 

OK.

 

It's the open advocation of that falsehood to people who could twist that around and sling it back at me--that's where it gets tough.

 

The really tough part is that they believe it's as true as the ground on which they walk--no, they believe it's more real, more true, than the material world. That is the real problem as I see it. There is no reasoning with that attitude that I know of. On top of that, they think that without the Holy Spirit a person doesn't know anything really worth knowing and if you're not a Christian obviously you don't have the Holy Spirit.

 

Or maybe your folks are the type who refuse to believe that it's possible to deconvert. Lots of people on here have that experience and they have found that to be extremely frustrating, too. Or they say you never were a Christian in the first place. There's all kinds of crazy stuff the fundies will say--none of which corresponds with reality as we experience it. And it can nearly drive you crazy!

 

True. And anyone who tells me that I wasn't a Christian in the first place (1) not only doesn't even know what they're talking about, they don't know me period; and (2) had better be prepared for a reminder of just how committed and how fervent I was during many of the days of my faith.

 

Religion and politics are good subjects for provoking an argument, if that is what you want. Otherwise, mind your own business and be honest if you are asked.

 

But that's the catch. I've been point-blank asked if I still believe in Jesus or not.

[Amethyst]

I would say be careful to whom you come out to. A lot of people have had extremely negative reactions from family members and friends. Some have had to distance themselves from their former lives as a result. It is primarily the Christian meme which says you have to advertise what you believe in. There is nothing in non-belief that says you have to.

 

For example, I've told my parents, but they are fairly open-minded for people who still go to church. I haven't said anything to any of my other relatives. Some of them can be extremely judgemental. I also don't want to hurt my older relatives. To them, religion is everything and they would probably take it very badly if I did tell them.

[Amethyst]

But that's the catch. I've been point-blank asked if I still believe in Jesus or not.

 

By whom? Family member, friend, co-worker, or casual acquaintance? Surely they know that asking people questions like that is considered rude by all but the fundiest of Christians?

 

What I do is just say that I don't really care to talk about religion or politics and I would be happy to talk about anything else with that person. Religion and politics are usually topics that many people consider off-limits anyway because people can be so passionate about their beliefs, and not take anyone else's side into consideration.