How Did Bible Study And Church History Cause Your Deconvsersion

[R. S. Martin]

Lots of people on exC say they deconverted when they studied how the Bible was put together or when they studied church history. I never heard any of the stories but just now I came across my own "serious problem." I posted it along with Question about Soul and Spirit but maybe it deserves a separate thread so I will copy that part here.

 

Because this is my experience I'll use it for the example. The question about soul and spirit was whether they are the same thing or different things. Seems the Christian church has not always thought the same and that at one point it made an arbitrary decision to end controversy. I have a serious problem with that kind of decisions. If something is false it's false, no matter what any church or pope says. If it's true, then it's true no matter what any church or pope says. But it seems like Hodge is saying the church or pope or clerical powers that be (or rather, the powers that were) made decisions about truth to end heresies.

 

And people go to heaven or hell based on those man-made decisions???

 

Heaven help us! What if God doesn't agree?

 

(NOTE: I am deconverted but I remember very well what it feels like being a Christian and it gives me the shivers just thinking about how seriously I thought about everything. Sometimes even now I wonder if I couldn't somehow find a way to go back, just to have peace with my family. And now I find out that the rules about the very faith were man-made. This is disgusting! And so many people are making major sacrifices every day of their lives because they think this stuff is the Truth because the Bible says so. I'd like to hear other people's stories if you care to share about your disillusionments.)

[Monk]

I have a serious problem with that kind of decisions. If something is false it's false, no matter what any church or pope says. If it's true, then it's true no matter what any church or pope says. But it seems like Hodge is saying the church or pope or clerical powers that be (or rather, the powers that were) made decisions about truth to end heresies.

 

And people go to heaven or hell based on those man-made decisions???

 

Heaven help us! What if God doesn't agree?

 

I'm sure they were "divinely inspired" just like the authors of the Bible, so it's OK...

 

Seriously, though, I have a problem with men making decisions as proxys for god, too. Even when I was a christian, I had a problem with it. To me, one of the more damaging pieces of evidence against the bible being divinely inspired comes from the fact that a group of men chose the current canon, often for very fickle and "worldly" reasons. For the church's legitimacy as a whole, I find it enlightening to note how varied the beliefs and doctrines were for the first few centuries. If the ORIGINALS didn't know what was going on, then there's NO WAY christians now can assume that THEY have the one and only Truth^TM.

[RedPillAddict]

For me, it started when I learned that the Bible that is read today is not nearly as large as it was in the past.

I started to read about all of the books that were removed from the Bible by the church, and how many times the story had been edited.

Also, how the Bible had been put together by a sort of "Committee", picking and choosing which stories should be put in and what should be taken out.

 

As far as "borrowing" from previous religions, I was blown away at how much of a rip-off Christianity was.

For example:

Stealing the flood story from the Sumerians

Stealing Lucifer from the Romans

Obvious "Borrowing" from the Egyptians

Stealing the dates, ideals, and traits of Jesus from previous religions

Christians flat-out stealing Paganinsm, blending it with their own religion, and then making all Pagan symbols evil or Satanic

 

The Skeptics Annotated Bible was a great source for me, because it points out every error and absurdity in the bible, verse by verse, book by book.

EvilBible.com is another great site that points out all the flaws of Christianity.

 

I also read a book called "The Dark Side of Christianity", which basically covered all of the gruesome things that people have done in the name of Christianity throughout history.

 

Hope this helps!!!

 

*edit* I also read the Gospel of St. Thomas, which was removed from the Bible, and it put Jesus in a completely new light...which is probably why they removed it. In the Gospel of ST, Jesus says not to pray, not to help the needy, and a few other things I found shocking.

[RedPillAddict]

If you read through the beliefs of the Sumerians(who had the very first religion, most think), you will find the root beliefs for pretty much every major religion today.

 

-Gatewaystobabylon.com

-Sumerian History and Religion

-Sumerian Religion

 

*edit* First WRITTEN religion...sorry

[mwc]

I didn't deconvert because of this but I very rapidly and strongly realized my deconversion wasn't going to land me in "hot water" once I did the basic research you're asking about.

 

I basically agree with Monk (including the whole "divine inspiration" part).

 

In fact, once I realized that the entire NT is simply a bunch of anonymous guys (and a "Paul"), telling me what they think the OT (a bit of a misnomer I know) really meant then it all becomes quite clear. Who cares what the church thinks? Who cares what the church fathers thought? The whole damn thing is based on anonymous opinion/interpretation in the first place and everyone else just argues about their interpretation of that. (All this is without even bothering with the reliability of the OT. Taking that into account the whole thing just goes way beyond the absurd in my mind). The whole thing then becomes interpretation (of interpretation [of interpretation]) of some story. Are they kidding? It's an onion that's all skin and no onion in the center.

 

mwc

[Deva]

My deconversion was a very long process. One very important component of it was the realization that the Bible was not "divinely inspired" in any way. I just did a lot of reading of Biblical criticism and church history. I eventually became completely convinced that xianity was totally man made.

 

Ruby, I fully understand about trying to find a way to go back in order to make peace with my family. I tried that in 1992 after my divorce, but it didn't work. They were trying to push creationism in every service and it was SO moronic. I thought I could reconcile myself with liberal xianity in 1995, so I went to the Episcopal Church. That didn't work either. So I am now an unbeliever.

 

Trying to please my family was definately behind some of the struggle I had.

[Guest Marty]

I went to a xtian school, and when I started reading the bible in 6th grade, I began to notice certain contradictions, not inside the bible itself, but between the doctrine I was being taught and what the bible actually says. The first thing I noticed was that we don't activily kill homosexuals today. I asked my teacher why, and that started the whole ball rolling.

 

The answer I got to that was that "Jesus fullfilled the OT, and those laws are no longer binding". That worked for a bit untill I got to the NT and read that jeebus himself says that the old law is binding forever. When this was brought up, my teacher began quoting Paul, and never did answer my question of why Paul should be held in more regard than jeebus.

 

Over the next 3 years in that school, I realized that the teachers didn't know much more than what was included in their lesson plans for them, and that the bible really was full of holes. Around this time, my church was having $$ problems, and EVERY sermon was about how you need to give everything you have to god, and he will in turn provide for you. When I was confirmed, I was given personalized offering envelopes at the end of the service, and I threw them out in the garbage immedietly. This angered my mother, who picked them out of the trash, but I never touched those envelopes again.

 

I deconverted in my confirmation classes, between 6th and 8th grade, but I was an agnostic. The main reason I gave it up is that I felt nobody was taking my questions and discoveries seriously. I was being brushed off as just a kid who dosen't understand yet. Although they sure wanted my money from my pizza job at the mall! I didn't seriously become an Atheist untill my grandmothers funeral. And I never saw the danger of religion untill 9/11.

[Skiergirl24]

My deconversion was ultimately caused by my mother's death...and God not answering my prayers. Still, I always had problems with the church and the Bible. The evil in the Bible has always bothered me. God justifies rape, murder, infanticide, etc. Not to mention the fact that the Bible - plain and simple - is a rip off of other religions, pagan myths and makes no sense! I threw out the Bible a long time ago!

 

And the Church History...don't even get me started! I was raised Catholic..in Boston, MA. In 2002 we faced the pedophile priest crisis and a LOT of people left the church. That is probably the most evil deed, in my lifetime, that the church has commited/sanctioned. The abuse and molestation of children is repulsive and the fact that the church covered it up and condoned it for so long infuriates me! I knew some of the priests who were de-frocked. Cardinal Law, guilty of allowing priests to abuse, and ruin hundreds of lives, now holds a lofty position in the Vatican. That was it for me. I knew then that I did not want to be Catholic. I lost all my faith this past year after my mother died very young of breast cancer. See ya...done with Catholicism and Christianity!

[R. S. Martin]

And I never saw the danger of religion untill 9/11.

 

This wasn't really part of my deconversion but in my mind fundamentalist religion is very closely related to 9/11 and the following war. It's what people on the forums seems to think. One day I made a remark in passing to a pacifist Christian that connected the two. The response was shocked silence and a statement to the effect that things are far more complicated than that. In short, in this pacifist's mind, fundamentalist religion is simply not the cause of the war. She never did explain the "real" cause of the war I had no desire to hear her reason. I don't like real reasons explained away for phoney ones without discussion or evaluation. And that's the way all my questions about religion are treated, which WAS a MAJOR part of my deconversion. THERE ARE NO ANSWERS.

[Monk]

She never did explain the "real" cause of the war I had no desire to hear her reason. I don't like real reasons explained away for phoney ones without discussion or evaluation. And that's the way all my questions about religion are treated, which WAS a MAJOR part of my deconversion. THERE ARE NO ANSWERS.

 

 

Something similar helped me realize that I had made the right decision by deconverting. My family and I were having a heated debate about judgment and going to hell (one sect being damned while another was saved). After I had obviously gained the unassailable upper hand with logic, using their own words and ideas against them, the argument was called to a halt by my mother who said: "we aren't even supposed to debate with people like you...all you want to do is cause trouble."

 

Not much you can do to keep the dialogue going with that. Still, I KNEW I was better off being able to think for myself and come to my own conclusions than I was shutting down my brain (like they did) every time someone used logic to refute the christian mindset.

 

Lesson learned: to fundamentalist christians, learning and education and knowledge almost always equal trouble for the faith.

[Artur]

*

[R. S. Martin]

Just now I discovered that original sin exists because of majority vote.

 

Possibly I misunderstand what I'm reading. It's on pages 150-151 here. Charles Hodge goes over all the various theories of sin and some of it is really complicated. The church had all these problems with heresies and finally just made up a set of rules to make it easy for everyone to know where they were at. Here are the rules:

(1.) That all men in their present state are sinners. (2.) That this universal sinfulness of men had its historical and causal origin in the voluntary apostasy of Adam. (3.) That such is the present state of human nature that salvation can be attained in no other way than through Christ, and by the assistance of his Spirit. (4.) That even infants as soon as born need regeneration and redemption, and can be saved only through the merit of Christ, These great truths, which lie at the foundation of the gospel, entered 151into the general faith of the Church before they were so strenuously asserted by Augustine in his controversy with Pelagius.

Well, okay, maybe it's best to simply things so it's nice and clear. But what comes later is what I have a problem with. He says many of the Greek Fathers did not agree with all of these points. But that doesn't bother him because:

 

the same writers in other passages avow their faith in these primary Scriptural truths; and they are implied in the prayers and ordinances of the Church, and were incorporated at a later period, in the public confessions of the Greeks, as well as of the Latins.

If all of this combined isn't just a fancy way of saying original sin became the foundation of Christianity via majority vote, then I don't understand what I'm reading. And it is possible that I don't understand. I invite input.

 

I would like to know that I'm wrong because it's just plain SICK. Either original sin is God's truth or it isn't. You can't decide it by majority vote. Human nature does not change by majority vote. Jesus' execution does not suddenly become the redemtion four centuries after the fact because of a majority vote in some board or bishop meeting.

 

It is true that scripture can be twisted to say that. But we know that scripture can be twisted to say absolutely everything else humans have ever wanted to make it say since and before that day.

 

I maintain that human nature is essentially good regardless of what the highest authorities say. I came to this conclusion through deep thought and personal study and my conviction runs so deep that I cannot give it up just because some school master or pope says so. I need to see evidence the likes of which can over-throw Stanley Milgram's findings. That, of course, is not what my conclusions are based on but Milgram's studies are famous and widely known.

[Eccles]

There are two reasons why I became Atheist: my knowledge of Astronomy and Astrophysics leading me to the conclusion that there is no "god", no "creator", no "intelligent designer". Then I just got so pissed off with Christianity and it's lies based on the fables of the worst book of fiction ever written. Another problem was that I was a Roman Catholic. That Church disencourages it's faithfull from knowing anything more than is necessary to be a Roman Catholic, i.e. how to attend Mass. Other than that questions are discouraged. The bible is not even taught properly. There are no bible discussions. At Roman Catholic School we did Genesis and Exodus, then the New Testament avoiding the nasties that are an embarrasment to the "Holy" Roman Catholic Church. The Doctrine of the Trinity was taught in way so that it could not be understood and it was forbidden to question it.

 

I have now read Dawkins, Harris, Hitchen, Dennett, many articles showing how much crap is in the bible. I know for a fact that much of Judeo/Christianity was stolen from early religious myths, especially the Egyptian ones. For instance the 10 Commandments come from the 42 Negative Confessions in the Book of the Dead. They are also similar to the Code of Hammarabi. Jesus learned his trade: healing and rasing from the dead from the Egyptian Temple Priests who were renowned for their magic.

 

Yes, the Bible was heavily edited and many scriptures like the Gospels of Thomas and Mary Madgelene banned from the bible. The Church did not want it's faithfull to know the truth.

 

Original sin is a joke: based on the fables of the non-existant Adam and Eve. Genesis is all bullshit. Exodus is bad fiction. The exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt never happened. Noah's Flood never happened.

 

The other point I must make is that contrary to what Christians believe there is no soul. So even is there was a heaven and hell, there is nothing of a human to go there. Of course sensible thinking people using sound logic know there is no heaven or hell.

[Mythra]

I'd say one of the biggest contributions to my deconversion was looking at the scriptures and trying to determine what exactly is it that God expects of me?

 

Of course, the true christians will tell you that God only expects faith. And for you to love and worship Him. The rest you need not worry about. For it is by God's grace you are saved, through faith. Unlike those other christians, who try to please God by obeying a list of rules. And the bible is very clear on this issue:

 

This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus

 

And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us

 

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, The righteous will live by faith.

 

So, it was clear. God expects faith. Nothing more. He sees us as righteous because we have faith. Easy enough. But then I thought, well let's see what Jesus himself says about the issue - just to be sure. And, there it was:

 

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

 

Okay, easy enough. Love God, love your neighbor. That's all that God expects. Other than that, just be yourself and you're good to go.

 

But wait a minute - what about those other verses? Maybe just having faith isn't enough. And maybe the true christians were all aware of this. Unlike those other christians who use God's grace as an excuse for licentiousness. Maybe God actually expects more of us. So, I checked, and sure enough - the bible is very clear on this issue:

 

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

 

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God

 

Yikes. Okay, now I get it. Stay away from sexual immorality, don't be greedy, don't get drunk, don't tell lies, don't swindle people. But I wondered, what did Jesus himself have to say about this? And so I checked that out, and sure enough:

 

Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

So, it was clear. You must have faith in God, love your neighbor, stay away from immorality, and obey the commandments. Not exactly easy, but at least we finally had figured out what God expected. Although we still needed to figure out which commandments? The Ten Commandments, or all of the completely stupid shit in Leviticus? This was getting more difficult.

 

But wait - there were some other verses too. Verses that talked about what you thought. Verses about coming out of the world and having nothing to do with the world. Verses about leaving behind your family. Verses about giving up all your possessions. Verses about being totally abstinent. Verses about taking up your cross and following Jesus. Verses about giving up everything for the sake of the gospel. So the bible was very clear on this issue. And perhaps it was the true christians who understood this. Perhaps it was the monks in seclusion, or the missionaries in Africa or the Amazon who were the only true christians.

 

This was going to be very difficult, this pleasing God.

 

Until one day I realized. The reason it's so confusing is not because I'm dense. It's because the bible is a convoluted mess that can only make sense if you concentrate all your attention and devotion to a certain group of passages and ignore the rest. No wonder it was so hard to figure out what God expected of me.

 

And so, I finally relegated this book to it's rightful place. An interesting read. A commentary on the mindset, superstitions, and creativity of an ancient people in the middle east. And almost utterly irrelevant to my life today.

 

Phew.

[Deva]

Mythra that was one excellent post! I always wondered just what did it mean to be "saved." I just couldn't figure out what was required. There was supposed to be some miraculous change in your life and you were suddenly a new creature after you repeated some prayer. Needless to say, it never occurred. Then I was told that I needed to be certain I was saved. How's that? I guess I didn't have enough faith. Faith meant believing in a lot of stuff that defies commons sense. It was all so confusing and impossible. This is because of all the contradictions you pointed out.

[mwc]

There are two reasons why I became Atheist: my knowledge of Astronomy and Astrophysics leading me to the conclusion that there is no "god", no "creator", no "intelligent designer".

I wish I were as smart as you.

 

When I was young I loved astronomy. I lived in an area that grew up and the stars sort of disappeared so that (and my brother) got me into computers. Later when I started into college I was going to go for IT but I thought I'd look into astronomy again (especially since they used computers). I took a course and did great. I loved it but the people in the class mocked the bible openly in class (I'm not kidding they made a comment about it being written by goat herders or something and everyone laughed..except me...or so it felt maybe others too...it was about 15 years ago). Little alarms went off in my head that this field was controlled by "evil" people and I couldn't be around them. So I walked away.

 

Of course I agree with them now but I'm painfully ignorant of the science I once loved since a lot has happened since I turned my back on it. I still enjoy the whole thing from afar (the parts I can understand) but it makes me wonder what might have been had I not been so caught up in the religion and all.

 

mwc

[Mythra]

Mythra that was one excellent post! I always wondered just what did it mean to be "saved." I just couldn't figure out what was required. There was supposed to be some miraculous change in your life and you were suddenly a new creature after you repeated some prayer. Needless to say, it never occurred. Then I was told that I needed to be certain I was saved. How's that? I guess I didn't have enough faith. Faith meant believing in a lot of stuff that defies commons sense. It was all so confusing and impossible. This is because of all the contradictions you pointed out.

 

Sounds like the classic Baptist racket. Over the years, I was in several different denominations, and Baptist was absolutely the worst. There were people in this church who would get convinced (by the complete ASSHOLE of a pastor) every six months that they weren't actually SAVED. And so, there they would go - back up the front of the church - to try and get saved again. The same tears, confessions and repentence that they had six months earlier. Some would even get baptised a second time! This pastor was the worst manipulator of people I've ever seen. It was his job every Sunday to try and convince the regulars there that god was going to pick and choose through the congregation who was actually saved and who didn't quite measure up. And I was supporting the ass-bite pastor by leading the music in that church. Fucking shame on me.

 

So, how sure am I now that it's all garbage? Positive. Sure enough that I'm betting eternity on it. After (like MWC) - wasting years learning about Christianity - thinking it was the most important thing a person could ever study (I mean, after all, it was written by GOD - for crissakes) I now know that it's not true. Most of the things in the bible never, ever happened. And those that did happen are exaggerated in the telling and "fixed" repeatedly over time by God's good scribes - the army of inspired liars.

 

Christianity is, without a doubt, the most monumental fraud ever perpetrated on humankind.

[Deva]

Sounds like the classic Baptist racket. Over the years, I was in several different denominations, and Baptist was absolutely the worst. There were people in this church who would get convinced (by the complete ASSHOLE of a pastor) every six months that they weren't actually SAVED. And so, there they would go - back up the front of the church - to try and get saved again. The same tears, confessions and repentence that they had six months earlier. Some would even get baptised a second time! This pastor was the worst manipulator of people I've ever seen. It was his job every Sunday to try and convince the regulars there that god was going to pick and choose through the congregation who was actually saved and who didn't quite measure up. And I was supporting the ass-bite pastor by leading the music in that church. Fucking shame on me.

 

So, how sure am I now that it's all garbage? Positive. Sure enough that I'm betting eternity on it. After (like MWC) - wasting years learning about Christianity - thinking it was the most important thing a person could ever study (I mean, after all, it was written by GOD - for crissakes) I now know that it's not true. Most of the things in the bible never, ever happened. And those that did happen are exaggerated in the telling and "fixed" repeatedly over time by God's good scribes - the army of inspired liars.

 

Christianity is, without a doubt, the most monumental fraud ever perpetrated on humankind.

 

Yes it was the Baptist racket. I was in it from age 9 to age 16 or 17. The pastor was extremely manipulative and authoritarian. During the altar call we would sing "Just As I Am" about 20 times just so someone could come forward and be saved or rededicate their life to Christ. I could tell the pastor took it as a personal affront if no one came up. He would get mad and then use hellfire and brimstone and guilt trips. Then we'd have to sing a few more verses. So someone would eventually come forward. These were people who were "saved" but were "out of fellowship with god". In other words, they did not have the assurance that they were right with God. Long time members who came every Sunday. How could they be sure? It was massive confusion on what it meant to be "saved." Our parents made us go three times a week.

 

Due to intensive brainwashing, I believed large portions of Christian doctrine, and at one time or another this included the rapture, Biblical prophecy, the existence of souls, sin, heaven and hell. In order to deconvert, at one point I had to say to myself that even if hell is real, I will risk it to escape from this doctrine with its poisonous view of humanity. I knew it was a huge factor in the negative view I held of myself and other people. We were all "sinners" you see, and depraved and corrupt. Intellectually I don't believe any of it now, but the years of brainwashing have their still lingering effects.

 

I see Christianity at its most dangerous in its harmful view of humanity and a person's self image. To accept it, a person must take a very low view of themselves and, naturally, others too. It IS a monumental fraud.

[Artur]

*

[R. S. Martin]

Of course I agree with them now but I'm painfully ignorant of the science I once loved since a lot has happened since I turned my back on it. I still enjoy the whole thing from afar (the parts I can understand) but it makes me wonder what might have been had I not been so caught up in the religion and all.

 

mwc

 

This is sad but hardly irreversible. Can't you go back to school? Read up in books or websites if going to school is not possible. Edcuate yourself! You're still alive and kicking.

 

Lots of sources are listed throughout these forums but if you need a place to start you can always click on my sig.

[R. S. Martin]

The fact of “eternal truth†being arrived at by simple majority rule, and other very, very subjective processes, is a continuous thread throughout church history.

 

Thank you for your compassionate explanation. This insight, and the implications, raises so many violent emotions I am not sure how further to respond.

[mwc]

This is sad but hardly irreversible. Can't you go back to school? Read up in books or websites if going to school is not possible. Edcuate yourself! You're still alive and kicking.

 

Lots of sources are listed throughout these forums but if you need a place to start you can always click on my sig.

The local JC's don't really offer anything (at least in the last course catalog I saw) and I can't afford a full university right now. So when I said I enjoy it from afar I meant through websites and the occasional ebook (I just can't wrap my mind around the advanced math/physics some of the really interesting topics require).

 

One of my big problems in school was not committing to a field. I was pretty sure I was going for IT (computers are easy) but I just kept taking all sorts of classes. The requirements would say take so many things in this category and that category and so on but I'd just keep going through them like a list. I had tons of overlap so I was never progressing. I just liked finding out what all these courses were about. They didn't allow people to audit classes then but I would have sat through most of them if they'd have let me (not for the grade but just to hear the lectures). I should see if they allow audits again.

 

On the bright side since coming to this site my attention has turned more to history and the like so I have gained an interest that I can understand.

 

mwc

[R. S. Martin]

I can see that if computers are that easy for you that you would find the overlap boring. In topics that I find interesting and challenging like history, I like the overlap because I find it gives me a deeper and more comprehensive view of the topic. When it comes to topics like astrophysics, I am so hopelessly out of my depths, yet fascinated by the topic, that I have taken advantage of free lectures open to the public offered at the local university. So far I was able to attend only one. I felt it was presented for the novice as well as for the person interested in on-going research. The speaker introduced enough basic concepts for the novice to be able to follow the gist of the lecture, but he also talked about his personal theories of the research he was working on at the moment. But yeah, I guess that would be part of "learning from afar" for you.

[mwc]

I can see that if computers are that easy for you that you would find the overlap boring. In topics that I find interesting and challenging like history, I like the overlap because I find it gives me a deeper and more comprehensive view of the topic.

I'm to this point now. I was younger and much more impatient. I wanted to learn everything and fast. Now I don't learn quite so fast so I'm much more patient.

 

One of the classes I have my eye on is Koinic Greek. It appears occasionally at the local JC. I may jump at it next time I notice it come around.

 

mwc

[R. S. Martin]

This is totally off-topic but what does JC stand for?