Mormons At My Door

[MrBungle]

A couple Mormons stopped by my house after work today, after talking with them for awhile I decided to trap them with logic and tried to get them to explain to me how it is possible that God can make prophecies and be omniscient at the same time that we have free will. Of course when faced with irrefutable logic they tried to use a copout response saying "god just knows what we will choose, its not that we don't have free will… He just knows us better than we know ourselves.†I called them on it and accused them of not being intellectually honest with themselves.

 

Anyway, they said that they would go back to their church and get the answer for me and come back on Saturday. I'm thinking it should be fairly interesting, I always love to see religious people squirm while they dodge questions where they know the answer but they can’t get themselves to utter it for the fear it would be blasphemy.

 

I look forward to debating with them on Saturday and was wondering if any of you had any other ideas for things I could bring up. (I’m always looking for new weapons in my personal war on superstition)

[Scott_In_Michigan]

Oh what a great opportunity! You should offer them some strange snacks to, uh, give them the impression that you're weird.

 

Seriously though... I'd love to hear their explanation for Isaiah 45:7 (KJV):

 

- "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

 

See how they can explain that God created evil, and why God allows that evil to ravage his supposedly most beloved creation (humans). Also you can tie it back to your original topic posed to the Mormons, and question them on why God felt it necessary to both create evil and, knowing all things that would ever happen from the beginning to the end of time, intentionally allow for evil to do what it has to humans.

[Scott_In_Michigan]

Oh, I forgot to mention... Mr. Bungle rocks. Great band! Great music!

[woodsmoke]

Oh what a great opportunity! You should offer them some strange snacks to, uh, give them the impression that you're weird.

 

Seriously though... I'd love to hear their explanation for Isaiah 45:7 (KJV):

 

- "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

 

See how they can explain that God created evil, and why God allows that evil to ravage his supposedly most beloved creation (humans). Also you can tie it back to your original topic posed to the Mormons, and question them on why God felt it necessary to both create evil and, knowing all things that would ever happen from the beginning to the end of time, intentionally allow for evil to do what it has to humans.

 

I can't speak for the missionaries, but I can give what I always understood to be the answer to that question when I was still a Mormon. In the cosmic scheme of things, God created everything (including the potential and capability for evil) for his own reasons. On our level of understanding, evil exists in order to test us. Not necessarily to see whether we'll "pass" or "fail," as "failing," such as it's usually understood in theological terms, is virtually impossible in LDS doctrine; but to see how successfully we pass (in Mormon-speak, to determine which degree of Heaven we earn entrace to).

 

I know that doesn't really address the issue of why an allegedly omni-benevolent deity would now only allow for the existence of but consciously create evil, and I'm sure it doesn't satisfy you anymore than it did me, but that was my (ill-informed) understanding of it. Unfortunately, back when I was LDS I didn't have the presence of mind to think it through and try to pursue the issue, instead simply accepting it on good faith like a good little Morgling. The missionaries may (and hopefully do) have a better answer for you.

[Aqua Kitty]

You could ask them if they wear magic underpants.

 

(wish I could find the rest of that routine!)

[Eric_PK]

A couple Mormons stopped by my house after work today, after talking with them for awhile I decided to trap them with logic and tried to get them to explain to me how it is possible that God can make prophecies and be omniscient at the same time that we have free will. Of course when faced with irrefutable logic they tried to use a copout response saying "god just knows what we will choose, its not that we don't have free will… He just knows us better than we know ourselves.†I called them on it and accused them of not being intellectually honest with themselves.

 

Anyway, they said that they would go back to their church and get the answer for me and come back on Saturday. I'm thinking it should be fairly interesting, I always love to see religious people squirm while they dodge questions where they know the answer but they can’t get themselves to utter it for the fear it would be blasphemy.

 

I look forward to debating with them on Saturday and was wondering if any of you had any other ideas for things I could bring up. (I’m always looking for new weapons in my personal war on superstition)

 

I haven't done this, but I've been sorely tempted to ask any mormons who come to me door "how I can join so I can get some of that polygamy stuff..."

[R. S. Martin]

I called them on it and accused them of not being intellectually honest with themselves.

 

Anyway, they said that they would go back to their church and get the answer for me and come back on Saturday.

 

Mr. Bungle, if they're as prompt as the JWs who made me a similar promise regarding some question about Jesus perhaps fifteen or twenty years ago, you needn't hold your breath just yet.

 

I had enjoyed my conversation with those JWs so very much because they were perhaps the first people with whom I could articulate all my questions and ideas about Jesus. They actually seemed to be interested and happy to discuss my questions and ideas....

 

You know what. Maybe their interest showed. If I remember correctly, they were fairly young. Maybe their elders realized what a dangerous person they had been talking to and forbade any of their people ever to call at our house again. Because we never had any more JW callers. I was disappointed. This was before I was in university and I REALLY LOVED the intellectual stimulation.

[MrBungle]

Seriously though... I'd love to hear their explanation for Isaiah 45:7 (KJV):

 

- "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

 

Oh thats a good one.

[MrBungle]

I called them on it and accused them of not being intellectually honest with themselves.

 

Anyway, they said that they would go back to their church and get the answer for me and come back on Saturday.

 

Mr. Bungle, if they're as prompt as the JWs who made me a similar promise regarding some question about Jesus perhaps fifteen or twenty years ago, you needn't hold your breath just yet.

 

I had enjoyed my conversation with those JWs so very much because they were perhaps the first people with whom I could articulate all my questions and ideas about Jesus. They actually seemed to be interested and happy to discuss my questions and ideas....

 

You know what. Maybe their interest showed. If I remember correctly, they were fairly young. Maybe their elders realized what a dangerous person they had been talking to and forbade any of their people ever to call at our house again. Because we never had any more JW callers. I was disappointed. This was before I was in university and I REALLY LOVED the intellectual stimulation.

 

I was afraid they might not come back, hopefully you're wrong but I wouldn't put it past them to avoid my house like the plague from now on.

[R. S. Martin]

Let us know how it works out. Here's hoping you get a good time.

[gusdafa]

I'm an ex-mormon staying with my mormon family, they know of my position but still love me (ah bliss!)... They threatened me with visits from missionaries, steak(region) and missionary presidents to which I said, bring it on (had many talks with parents about my atheistic position). I have yet to see or hear from anyone wanting to talk to me.

 

Rationality and reason will always come through in the end.

[Rhia]

Good luck most definitely - one of my mothers is an ex-mormon pagan, and claims there's just no reasoning with Mormon missionaries.

[Skiergirl24]

BWAHAHHAA ask them if you can join in that "freaky orgy stuff...2 chicks with one dude

and then give all the men high fives. hahahahha

[woodsmoke]

Not to play Killjoy, but in the event any of you actually encounter a pair of Mormon missionaries in the future, you should know polygamy is no longer an officially endorsed practice in the LDS church and hasn't been since 1896 when Wilford Woodruff issued the Manifesto officially discontinuing the practice.

 

I realize it's probably a lot of fun to joke about, but better to cultivate an image of respect through being informed than simply brushed off with a roll of the eyes as just another ignorant "Mormon-basher."

[R. S. Martin]

What do "Mormon missionaries" look like? A few years ago around Christmas (I think it was a Sunday) some of my sisters visited me. It was a nice day in winter, but somewhat crisp and cold. We went for a walk so I could show them my neighbourhood. Anyway, we met two young men who looked like anything but neighbhood youth. They were very clean-cut (short hair tapered down the neck like my brothers and pics from WW1 and no facial hair if I remember correctly). They wore long topcoats rather than hip-length insulated jackets like everyone around here wears on the street.

 

They stopped to ask us if we were Mennonites so I told them the basic tenets of Mennonite theology and all of us went our way. My sisters were glad to have me there to answer the religious questions. When we got back from our walk I saw the men at a batch of houses on a cul-de-sac off our street. I guess they were some kind of religious people going door to door. I would have thought they were JW except that they didn't really talk like JWs do--nothing about Jesus or the kingdom of heaven, or even anything about their own beliefs. Since we were religious they seemed to think we were okay. JWs think everyone who isn't JW is wrong. These didn't seem to be like that.

 

Also, when we talked with them, they looked really cold and I asked where they were from. They were from somewhere in the Western States, maybe where it doesn't get so cold, fresh off the plane. I would say they weren't dressed for the weather, what with their light topcoats and no hats to go with their short hair. They were walking; no car in sight. I don't know if we have Mormons around here but we have lots of JWs and they know how to dress warmly. It wasn't that cold for the time of year. So I'm wondering if this sounds like "Mormon missionaries" to those of you who are familiar with Mormons.

[woodsmoke]

I'm not sure what a topcoat is (a different/regional word for suit jacket?), but that seems about right. Mormon missionaries all have their hair cut very short and clean, keep themselves clean-shaven and usually tract in formal wear (collared button shirt, slacks, dress shoes, tie and, depending on the weather, a suit jacket), with a little black tag clipped to their chest pocket that has their name and the church title on it. Making them even easier to recognize is the fact they always go out in pairs.

[R. S. Martin]

I'm not sure what a topcoat is (a different/regional word for suit jacket?), but that seems about right. Mormon missionaries all have their hair cut very short and clean, keep themselves clean-shaven and usually tract in formal wear (collared button shirt, slacks, dress shoes, tie and, depending on the weather, a suit jacket), with a little black tag clipped to their chest pocket that has their name and the church title on it. Making them even easier to recognize is the fact they always go out in pairs.

 

I googled topcoat. I couldn't tell about style but this gives you a general idea. It's a dress coat for wearing over top of the suit jacket when it's cold. But when it's this cold you need a heavier coat than they were wearing. At least, the horse and buggy men do. And you need either a tall collar to protect your head or a hat. They had neither. For comparison, here's a batch of regular winter coats people use on the street and in cars around here.

 

Given that they were wearing long top coats, I could not see whether they were wearing things like suit jackets and dress shirts and ties. But what struck me was that they were in a pair and in formal wear and talking religion. I would guess they were Mormon missionaries.

 

I was raised with the idea that missionaries were things to be feared but I sensed nothing about these men that I couldn't handle intellectually. I just keep being amazed at how many things The Church got wrong.

[HadouKen24]

A couple Mormons stopped by my house after work today, after talking with them for awhile I decided to trap them with logic and tried to get them to explain to me how it is possible that God can make prophecies and be omniscient at the same time that we have free will. Of course when faced with irrefutable logic they tried to use a copout response saying "god just knows what we will choose, its not that we don't have free will… He just knows us better than we know ourselves.†I called them on it and accused them of not being intellectually honest with themselves.

 

Anyway, they said that they would go back to their church and get the answer for me and come back on Saturday. I'm thinking it should be fairly interesting, I always love to see religious people squirm while they dodge questions where they know the answer but they can’t get themselves to utter it for the fear it would be blasphemy.

 

I look forward to debating with them on Saturday and was wondering if any of you had any other ideas for things I could bring up. (I’m always looking for new weapons in my personal war on superstition)

 

Eh, I wouldn't bring up the free will thing if I were you. Divine omniscience and free will are perfectly compatible. Your average Christian on the street may be stumped by the problem, but every theologian worth his salt has had to confront the problem and resolve it. And the solutions work quite well. For instance, Boethius argued that, from a proper view of eternity, divine foreknowledge only seems to be foreknowledge because of our limited capacities. God himself, being eternal, sees all actions as if they exist in a single eternal moment. Thus, his knowledge of actions occurring in the future no more infringe on free will than your knowledge of actions occurring as you see them.

 

That said, I do believe that God's knowledge of our future actions does give him some level of responsibility for the sin and suffering in the world, if the account of Adam and Eve in the Garden is to be taken literally. He knew that they would sin if he placed them there, and so it's like giving a severely alcoholic friend a bottle of whiskey in the middle of his recovery. Sure, it's his choice not to drink it, but you know for a fact that he will. Likewise, God knew that they were going to eat of the fruit if he put them there.

 

Moreover, punishing all humanity for the first two humans' actions--if not with damnation, then by introducing disease and suffering into the world--is not just in any sense of the term understandable by humans. To say that it is just in some divine sense not understandable by humans is nonsensical. If we can't understand what is meant by the term in this context, then we aren't saying anything in predicating it of God.

[woodsmoke]

I googled topcoat. I couldn't tell about style but this gives you a general idea. It's a dress coat for wearing over top of the suit jacket when it's cold. But when it's this cold you need a heavier coat than they were wearing. At least, the horse and buggy men do. And you need either a tall collar to protect your head or a hat. They had neither. For comparison, here's a batch of regular winter coats people use on the street and in cars around here.

 

Thanks for the info, looks like your topcoat is indeed our suit jacket. Ah, fun with language.

 

As far as I know, Mormon missionaries are prohibited from wearing hats while tracting by a dress code. I'm not really sure why, but I imagine it has something to do with not messing up the hair and possibly making them look less "respectable." I agree about it being stupid in cold climates like Canada, though.

 

Given that they were wearing long top coats, I could not see whether they were wearing things like suit jackets and dress shirts and ties. But what struck me was that they were in a pair and in formal wear and talking religion. I would guess they were Mormon missionaries.

 

I was raised with the idea that missionaries were things to be feared but I sensed nothing about these men that I couldn't handle intellectually. I just keep being amazed at how many things The Church got wrong.

 

I think it's a case of both The Church getting it wrong and your average Mormon missionary pair being much more agreeable on average. There are no life-long missionaries in the Mormon church like there are in other faiths. Young men in the LDS church leave to serve a mission at 19 years old, and especially those from Utah will have been raised in an extremely sheltered environment, so right out the gate they already have a boatload of ignorance in their column. Their relative youth works in their favor in that they rarely have many "set in stone" convictions and they tend to give default respect to people older than them (i.e. 95% of the people they're likely to encounter in the course of their mission). Most of them also genuinely believe they're simply trying to help people and don't think that necessarily has to mean converting them; just being friendly and lending a hand where needed (by helping an unfortunate driver push their car out of a ditch, f'rex) can well be seen as a witness in and of itself, and (as far as I know, anyway) there's no overwhelming pressure to ram the Book of Mormon down every potential convert's throat at every opportunity.

 

Taken together, their youth, ignorance and general amicability can throw a lot of people used to dealing with older, less... tactful missionaries for a loop. Which, in my opinion, is somewhat of a good thing. I don't think a person should take it easy on Mormon missionaries simply because they're not "trench veterans" like a JW couple may be, but having grown up as one and being able to identify with being 19 years old and knowing virtually nothing about the world beyond the "safe" confines of church-approved knowledge, I can't help but cringe when others talk about extending and sharpening their non-theist claws in gleeful anticipation of filleting themselves the missionary pair who had no idea what they were getting themselves into by knocking on their door. By all means, challenge and educate them, just don't be excessively harsh about it. (that last part not directed at you, Ruby, but meant to apply generally)

[R. S. Martin]

I googled topcoat. I couldn't tell about style but this gives you a general idea. It's a dress coat for wearing over top of the suit jacket when it's cold. But when it's this cold you need a heavier coat than they were wearing. At least, the horse and buggy men do. And you need either a tall collar to protect your head or a hat. They had neither. For comparison, here's a batch of regular winter coats people use on the street and in cars around here.

 

Thanks for the info, looks like your topcoat is indeed our suit jacket. Ah, fun with language.

 

 

 

So what do you call the coat that goes with the pants of the suit?

 

Today I saw a pair of Mormon missionaries wearing black suits. It's warm today so they did not wear top coats but they did wear suit jackets or coats to go with the pants.

 

A top coat goes over top of the suit jacket--a guy wears two coats overtop of each other. Don't you ever do that in your part of the world?

 

As far as I know, Mormon missionaries are prohibited from wearing hats while tracting by a dress code. I'm not really sure why,

 

Probably because of the passage about headship and prayer in 1 Cor. 11:3-16. Here are a few verses and I highlighted the one applying to men:

 

^{3} But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband^ is the head of his wife,^ and God is the head of Christ. ^{4} Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, ^{5} but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head—it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved.

 

Verses 14 and 15 probably also apply (again, I highlight the part applying to men):

 

^{14} Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him, ^{15} but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory?

 

QUESTION: Do Mormon women wear their hair long with a prayer veil like these verses command?

 

but I imagine it has something to do with not messing up the hair and possibly making them look less "respectable." I agree about it being stupid in cold climates like Canada, though.

 

I think it has a lot to do with the scripture passages I mentioned above. People native to cold climates have found ways of being "respectable" and "formal" and also keeping warm and following scripture.

 

Given that they were wearing long top coats, I could not see whether they were wearing things like suit jackets and dress shirts and ties. But what struck me was that they were in a pair and in formal wear and talking religion. I would guess they were Mormon missionaries.

 

I was raised with the idea that missionaries were things to be feared but I sensed nothing about these men that I couldn't handle intellectually. I just keep being amazed at how many things The Church got wrong.

 

I think it's a case of both The Church getting it wrong and your average Mormon missionary pair being much more agreeable on average. There are no life-long missionaries in the Mormon church like there are in other faiths. Young men in the LDS church leave to serve a mission at 19 years old, and especially those from Utah will have been raised in an extremely sheltered environment, so right out the gate they already have a boatload of ignorance in their column. Their relative youth works in their favor in that they rarely have many "set in stone" convictions and they tend to give default respect to people older than them (i.e. 95% of the people they're likely to encounter in the course of their mission). Most of them also genuinely believe they're simply trying to help people and don't think that necessarily has to mean converting them; just being friendly and lending a hand where needed (by helping an unfortunate driver push their car out of a ditch, f'rex) can well be seen as a witness in and of itself, and (as far as I know, anyway) there's no overwhelming pressure to ram the Book of Mormon down every potential convert's throat at every opportunity.

 

Taken together, their youth, ignorance and general amicability can throw a lot of people used to dealing with older, less... tactful missionaries for a loop. Which, in my opinion, is somewhat of a good thing. I don't think a person should take it easy on Mormon missionaries simply because they're not "trench veterans" like a JW couple may be, but having grown up as one and being able to identify with being 19 years old and knowing virtually nothing about the world beyond the "safe" confines of church-approved knowledge, I can't help but cringe when others talk about extending and sharpening their non-theist claws in gleeful anticipation of filleting themselves the missionary pair who had no idea what they were getting themselves into by knocking on their door. By all means, challenge and educate them, just don't be excessively harsh about it. (that last part not directed at you, Ruby, but meant to apply generally)

 

 

Thanks for this "inside" story about the boys. The boys I saw today looked somewhat pathetic. I was on a bus in a part of town I'd never been before so maybe I was projecting my own "lost" feeling onto them--I dunno. Anyway, the bus stopped to pick someone up and I saw this pair of black suited young men with backpacks strapped onto their backs stagger toward the bus. They didn't want a ride--just wanted to cross the street, I guess. About the same time I heard a running commentary from the back of the bus something like this: As soon as the kids turn eighteen they send them in pairs on the street. They have to go door to door and live on charity...

 

Rightly or wrongly, I made a connection between the speaker and the young men and concluded that the speaker felt sorry for the boys. What you say fits the picture. It's almost like it's an initiation rite into adulthood.

[Mythra]

You could ask them about "reformed Egyptian". And what other documents of antiquity are written in this language.

 

You could ask about the lack of archaeological and anthropological evidence for the Lamanites in ancient america.

 

You could ask about all of the animals and plants that are referenced in the BOM that were non-existent in Mesoamerica.

 

Or the DNA evidence that Native Americans are not decendants of Israelites.

 

But it won't matter. You won't change the minds of the little mobots, or deter them from their mission.

[woodsmoke]

A top coat goes over top of the suit jacket--a guy wears two coats overtop of each other. Don't you ever do that in your part of the world?

 

Ah, so not a different regional word for the suit jacket, but an additional garment altogether. I'm afraid that's something we don't have down here in Utah--at least, not that I've ever seen. When it's cold enough to demand more than the jacket, we just throw a conventional casual coat on overtop.

 

Unless that's what you've been referring to the whole time, in which case I'm just about as obtuse as a person can possibly get.

 

Probably because of the passage about headship and prayer in 1 Cor. 11:3-16. Here are a few verses and I highlighted the one applying to men:

 

^{3} But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband^ is the head of his wife,^ and God is the head of Christ. ^{4} Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, ^{5} but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head—it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved.

 

Verses 14 and 15 probably also apply (again, I highlight the part applying to men):

 

^{14} Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him, ^{15} but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory?

 

QUESTION: Do Mormon women wear their hair long with a prayer veil like these verses command?

 

I suppose that could have something to do with it. I never served a mission, though, so I couldn't authoritatively say.

 

As to the "prayer veil," I've never seen one--at least, none that I would recognize as such. It's possible some women wear them so it just looks like a shawl. Most of the Mormon women I've known do tend to have long hair, but I'm sure that has just as much to do with the fact it's kind of the regional norm as it does with any religious motivation; most of the women around here have hair of at least shoulder length (though shorter styles do become more common as they get older).

[R. S. Martin]

A top coat goes over top of the suit jacket--a guy wears two coats overtop of each other. Don't you ever do that in your part of the world?

 

Ah, so not a different regional word for the suit jacket, but an additional garment altogether. I'm afraid that's something we don't have down here in Utah--at least, not that I've ever seen. When it's cold enough to demand more than the jacket, we just throw a conventional casual coat on overtop.

 

Unless that's what you've been referring to the whole time, in which case I'm just about as obtuse as a person can possibly get.

 

I think you got it now. Maybe you didn't click on the links I provided. The links led to pictures of the kinds of coats I was talking about. The top coat is a formal coat rather than casual. I don't know too much about climate in Utah. We have four distinct seasons here in Ontario. Top coat is for spring and fall, and heavier winter coat is for when it's really cold. I would say they were wearing a spring/fall coat in winter, which is not adequate.

 

Probably because of the passage about headship and prayer in 1 Cor. 11:3-16. Here are a few verses and I highlighted the one applying to men:

 

^{3} But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband^ is the head of his wife,^ and God is the head of Christ. ^{4} Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, ^{5} but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head—it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved.

 

Verses 14 and 15 probably also apply (again, I highlight the part applying to men):

 

^{14} Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him, ^{15} but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory?

 

QUESTION: Do Mormon women wear their hair long with a prayer veil like these verses command?

 

I suppose that could have something to do with it. I never served a mission, though, so I couldn't authoritatively say.

 

So you don't automatically have to do it when you turn a certain age? Or maybe you left the church before being pressed into service?

 

As to the "prayer veil," I've never seen one--at least, none that I would recognize as such. It's possible some women wear them so it just looks like a shawl. Most of the Mormon women I've known do tend to have long hair, but I'm sure that has just as much to do with the fact it's kind of the regional norm as it does with any religious motivation; most of the women around here have hair of at least shoulder length (though shorter styles do become more common as they get older).

 

This sounds as though the women cut their hair. Some churches teach that it is wrong to cut women's hair and they they need to keep their hair covered up because of those verses. The Mennonites and Amish and possibly some SDA have that belief. Are Mormons the same as SDA? Maybe there are different branches, just as there are different branches of the Mennonite church.

[R. S. Martin]

I look forward to debating with them on Saturday and was wondering if any of you had any other ideas for things I could bring up. (I’m always looking for new weapons in my personal war on superstition)

 

Mr. Bungle, did they come back? Did you have an interesting conversation?

[hereticzero]

My wife had the unique way of answering the door with our 6' 10" bull snake draped over her shoulders. We have not seen any more for quite some time. This beats my Pastafarian pirate's hat and dreadlocks that I wear to the door. I've been working on my crappy Jamaican accent, "Hey bell-ringer mon! You want to meet the noodle of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?" You get the idea, right? Then I offer to take them door to door in their neighborhood but they have to help me pass out information on the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I have had no takers on my offer. I'll listen to their crap and when they are done, we go evangelizing for the Pastafarians. That was my offer but they just left and did not come back. Maybe I could work on my Capt. Jack stance?