Tyson Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Often times the example of lack of free will involves the Pharoah of the alleged Exodus. Christian apologists often point to the fact that Pharoah first hardened his heart and God just helped him along later in the story as if this somehow clears up the problem entirely. Well I was flipping through the book of Joshua for a post I wanted to make and came across Joshua 11:19 and 20: "There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle. For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded" What's wrong with this picture IF one uses to reason to analyze it??? By the way, the Bible I have has footnotes (comments and elaborations) and it just occured to me that whenever there is a rather foolish scripture, the footnotes generally have NOTHING to say about it as in the case of the above scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ TexasFreethinker ☆ Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Often times the example of lack of free will involves the Pharoah of the alleged Exodus. Christian apologists often point to the fact that Pharoah first hardened his heart and God just helped him along later in the story as if this somehow clears up the problem entirely. Well I was flipping through the book of Joshua for a post I wanted to make and came across Joshua 11:19 and 20: "There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle. For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Yahweh spent much of the old testament hardening people's hearts. That implies that he made sure that people didn't choose the "right" path and made it possible for him to justify slaying them (or having them slayed). That is immoral. Christians can't (or won't) see that because it messes up the entire "god is love" doctrine. But blindess to immorality doesn't lessen immorality. If it walks like an immoral monster and hardens hearts like an immoral monster, it's an immoral monster. *** Takes two Yahweh Lipitor tablets to make sure my heart can't be hardened *** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 By the way, the Bible I have has footnotes (comments and elaborations) and it just occured to me that whenever there is a rather foolish scripture, the footnotes generally have NOTHING to say about it as in the case of the above scripture. Ain't that the standard? Honestly, if I had one single Euro for every time I asked a fundie a hard question and he gave an answer to a wholly different question... (And of course, when I complained about him not answering, fundie boy always proudly pointed at his irrelevant babble and accused me of willful ignorance...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diggin Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 Often times the example of lack of free will involves the Pharoah of the alleged Exodus. Christian apologists often point to the fact that Pharoah first hardened his heart and God just helped him along later in the story as if this somehow clears up the problem entirely. Well I was flipping through the book of Joshua for a post I wanted to make and came across Joshua 11:19 and 20: "There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle. For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded" What's wrong with this picture IF one uses to reason to analyze it??? By the way, the Bible I have has footnotes (comments and elaborations) and it just occured to me that whenever there is a rather foolish scripture, the footnotes generally have NOTHING to say about it as in the case of the above scripture. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Great question. imho, God views all people as dead already. It doesn't much matter what he does to them, because the whole Old Testament was like a set of pictures that God wanted to play out so that people later could read about it and learn some lessons. ALL THE PEOPLE who lived and died in those times will be coming back to experience life on earth, and will be the better for having lived through whatever happened to them -- whether they were Jews or Gentiles, whether they died in battle or plagues, or the earth swallowed them up. Your Joshua scripture proves that God is in charge, and if people don't understand or believe, it's OK -- they can still be useful in God's plan. The mistake would be to assume God is petty or doesn't care about these people. He will bless all of them eventually. God wanted the Jews to conquer the land for shortterm and longterm reasons. Shortterm, he wanted to stamp out the diseases and the moral decadence that accompanied canaanite cult worship. He knew that if the Jews coexisted with those peoples, they would be infected by the microbes and the mindset of those debauched and degraded folks. Longterm, he knew the Jews would fail to do all that he commanded, and he wanted them to have the seeds of their own future tough lessons growing among them. And even longer term, he wanted people who would view this from a spiritual perspective to see lessons they could apply to their lives and learn from. That's why it's useful for authentic xtians to study the Old Testament. Super longterm, God is planning to resurrect all the folks, good, bad, and in-between, and teach them his ways so they can all live happily ever after. No joke. (See Ezekiel 16 for example -- read it all the way to the end) One last thing. The same sort of thing is happening today. God puts "hooks in the jaws of Gog" to bring them to Israel to fight. (Ezekiel 38:4) Read about Russia, read about the U.S., and you'll see God doing exactly that. Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush II .... they all are useful at any given moment to accomplish what God wants done. Could it be that today, just as in Joshua's day, God wants to curtail the favors that have been given to this nation or any other nation? I don't see why not....but again, super long term everybody will get the favor of true life and the "2nd half of their education." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokudo Ningyou Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 Great question. imho, God views all people as dead already. It doesn't much matter what he does to them, because the whole Old Testament was like a set of pictures that God wanted to play out so that people later could read about it and learn some lessons. ALL THE PEOPLE who lived and died in those times will be coming back to experience life on earth, and will be the better for having lived through whatever happened to them -- whether they were Jews or Gentiles, whether they died in battle or plagues, or the earth swallowed them up. Your Joshua scripture proves that God is in charge, and if people don't understand or believe, it's OK -- they can still be useful in God's plan. The mistake would be to assume God is petty or doesn't care about these people. He will bless all of them eventually. God wanted the Jews to conquer the land for shortterm and longterm reasons. Shortterm, he wanted to stamp out the diseases and the moral decadence that accompanied canaanite cult worship. He knew that if the Jews coexisted with those peoples, they would be infected by the microbes and the mindset of those debauched and degraded folks. Longterm, he knew the Jews would fail to do all that he commanded, and he wanted them to have the seeds of their own future tough lessons growing among them. And even longer term, he wanted people who would view this from a spiritual perspective to see lessons they could apply to their lives and learn from. That's why it's useful for authentic xtians to study the Old Testament. Super longterm, God is planning to resurrect all the folks, good, bad, and in-between, and teach them his ways so they can all live happily ever after. No joke. (See Ezekiel 16 for example -- read it all the way to the end) One last thing. The same sort of thing is happening today. God puts "hooks in the jaws of Gog" to bring them to Israel to fight. (Ezekiel 38:4) Read about Russia, read about the U.S., and you'll see God doing exactly that. Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush II .... they all are useful at any given moment to accomplish what God wants done. Could it be that today, just as in Joshua's day, God wants to curtail the favors that have been given to this nation or any other nation? I don't see why not....but again, super long term everybody will get the favor of true life and the "2nd half of their education." Uh....so God wanted hypocrisy, lying, and extramarital affairs? Makes perfect sense now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 imho, God views all people as dead already. It doesn't much matter what he does to them, because the whole Old Testament was like a set of pictures that God wanted to play out so that people later could read about it and learn some lessons. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Do you think, that your God also is forming your life, so people in some distant future may learn some lessons from reading about it? If so, I think your God is abusing you. Shortterm, he wanted to stamp out the diseases and the moral decadence that accompanied canaanite cult worship. He knew that if the Jews coexisted with those peoples, they would be infected by the microbes and the mindset of those debauched and degraded folks. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This is totally out of touch with reality. Wake up to real life!!! Longterm, he knew the Jews would fail to do all that he commanded, and he wanted them to have the seeds of their own future tough lessons growing among them. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Does your God also call you into someting he already knows, that you will fail? Once again, abuse!!!! And even longer term, he wanted people who would view this from a spiritual perspective to see lessons they could apply to their lives and learn from. That's why it's useful for authentic xtians to study the Old Testament. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So you are an authentic xtian. I am glad, that I have left that religion. Super longterm, God is planning to resurrect all the folks, good, bad, and in-between, and teach them his ways so they can all live happily ever after. No joke. (See Ezekiel 16 for example -- read it all the way to the end) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I do not think you are joking. I am perfectly aware, that there are a hell lot of different versions of Christianity. One last thing. The same sort of thing is happening today. God puts "hooks in the jaws of Gog" to bring them to Israel to fight. (Ezekiel 38:4) Read about Russia, read about the U.S., and you'll see God doing exactly that. Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush II .... they all are useful at any given moment to accomplish what God wants done. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No free will, no resposibility. You are free to vote for an idiot. It doesn't matter, because it is basically God who is in control. Could it be that today, just as in Joshua's day, God wants to curtail the favors that have been given to this nation or any other nation? I don't see why not....but again, super long term everybody will get the favor of true life and the "2nd half of their education." <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Great question. imho, God views all people as dead already. It doesn't much matter what he does to them, because the whole Old Testament was like a set of pictures that God wanted to play out so that people later could read about it and learn some lessons. ALL THE PEOPLE who lived and died in those times will be coming back to experience life on earth, and will be the better for having lived through whatever happened to them -- whether they were Jews or Gentiles, whether they died in battle or plagues, or the earth swallowed them up. If God loves us like they say then God must be a necrophiliac. Kinky! What happened to the golden rule? Is that only for dead people? If God doesn't give a fuck for dead people, why should I? God wanted to give good lessons on being a terrorist? The bible teaches reincarnation? Are Christians allowed to think about the absurd outcomes of their random thoughts? Or does the Holy Spirit poke you with a hat pin just as you are about to think "oops"? Your Joshua scripture proves that God is in charge, and if people don't understand or believe, it's OK -- they can still be useful in God's plan. The mistake would be to assume God is petty or doesn't care about these people. He will bless all of them eventually. Hang on there, Sparky. You just got done saying people are already dead and it doesn't much matter what happens to them. Please try to be consistent within a single post. Folks will take you more seriously that way. God wanted the Jews to conquer the land for shortterm and longterm reasons. Shortterm, he wanted to stamp out the diseases and the moral decadence that accompanied canaanite cult worship. He knew that if the Jews coexisted with those peoples, they would be infected by the microbes and the mindset of those debauched and degraded folks. What moral decadence? You mean like conducting genocide? I suppose that we should be killing those that have AIDS don't you think? How about cholera? How about those with the flue? The cure for the common cold = I guess the truth of God is a little weak, since it can't stand up to a little heathen thinking? I've heard it said that the Canaanites were killing an occasional child in sacrifice therefore God had to rub them out. Headline: GOD KILLS KIDS TO SAVE THEM FROM GETTING KILLED! Longterm, he knew the Jews would fail to do all that he commanded, and he wanted them to have the seeds of their own future tough lessons growing among them. Really? Got a scripture for that? Diggin Brain Cell 23:1-3 And even longer term, he wanted people who would view this from a spiritual perspective to see lessons they could apply to their lives and learn from. That's why it's useful for authentic xtians to study the Old Testament. Oh, I see. Lessons for the Inquisition, or your tithe dollars at work. Super longterm, God is planning to resurrect all the folks, good, bad, and in-between, and teach them his ways so they can all live happily ever after. No joke. (See Ezekiel 16 for example -- read it all the way to the end) Super! Then it won't matter if I give him the finger now for being an asshole will it? After all it is just part of the fairy tale -- "and they lived happily ever after." It must be god's plan that I would think that he is a slime not worthy to lick the toe jam from Satan's feet -- if god existed, which he don't. But of course, not existing is part of God's plan too. One last thing. The same sort of thing is happening today. God puts "hooks in the jaws of Gog" to bring them to Israel to fight. (Ezekiel 38:4) Read about Russia, read about the U.S., and you'll see God doing exactly that. Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush II .... they all are useful at any given moment to accomplish what God wants done. Holy Golden Calf! Batman! I haven't heard of Gog since the soviets took a nose dive in 89! Lordy, I bet those commie bastards are sneeking up on us again. Could it be that today, just as in Joshua's day, God wants to curtail the favors that have been given to this nation or any other nation? I don't see why not....but again, super long term everybody will get the favor of true life and the "2nd half of their education." Sure, why not. But couldn't it be that God just wants to get that really big bugger out of his left nosteral? On the other hand, maybe he is just trying to figure out what the meaning of is is. That should keep him busy for a couple of more "God Days". You are a JW aren't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AscendoTuumDeus Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 It further proves that the Bible-God is a sadistic bastard. That is all it possibly can say since he is omnipotent and omniscient, and did nothing at all to help the other cities of Israel; then sent them to live eternity in hell to make room for more dominionists in heaven: all of which wish to implement the Bible-God's laws on Earth; reducing the roles of women to basically slaves, bringing the death penalty in for many things (such as blasphemy, adultery, possibly stealing, etc.), and other atrocities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Helmet Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 nevermind, I'm too sleepy to put my thoughts in order... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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