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MM,

Are you satisfied with the answers that science is presenting?

Madam M has only presented to you a small, tiny, puny fraction of what science knows and got documented about the mind and the brain. And most of it is based on something called: reality. They study nature, they study and observe real, physical, things. The stuff we can touch, measure, medicate, organize, mix, work on, test on... and they have a very good, but yet not complete, understanding of how it works.

 

Do I trust thousands of books written the last 100 years by sincere scientists versus one book written 2000 years ago by peasants? HELL YEAH!!!

 

The evidence for REALITY is so overwhelming that it can't be denied unless you live in fantasyland.

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Hey HanSolo

 

I dont know if my post belongs on this thread, sorry for going off on a bunny trail

 

it was really in response to calivinism on another thread and love on this thread, it belongs between the two threads somewheres haha

 

sorry

 

sojourner

I like bunnies. ... :HaHa:

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So go kill everyone who is injured? I got it.....make food out of them for the poor people. Soilent greens!

 

 

Never any middle ground huh? All or nothing is it? That's not a very healthy way to look at life. Life is full of shades of grey.

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So go kill everyone who is injured? I got it.....make food out of them for the poor people. Soilent greens!

What? What do you mean? Why should we kill everyone who is injured? Are you talking about Shiavo? It totally proves that you don't know anything about what you're talking about. You're making extreme statements based on emotional resaoning instead of facts and reality. That's very religious, and that's why it's so dangerous.

 

Let's see:

 

Take a person. He's in a gun fight and gets his head shot off.

 

But because "End3 love" dictactes that we shouldn't "kill" injured people, we will maintain life in his body with medical technology.

 

And we should do so, because it's just a scratch wound?

 

Define the word Injuried please. Terry Shiavo was dead. Her brain was gone. It wasn't brain mass anymore, or nerves or anything, it was water and proteins in a stew. And if I recall correctly, it was proven through physical evidence, but looking at it with their eyes, autopsy. So in this case, Terry was no just some injured with a little cut, or a little head ache. She was already gone. And this is so typical for Christians. To argue extreme emotions to force their twisted belief on others.

 

--

 

Basically what you want is to dig up all dead bodies and put a life support system to them and keep everyone alive with technical help. It doesn't matter if you only have a hand or a leg or just an eye left of someone, but that part is them is "alive" and should kept fresh through medicine for eternity.

 

Why are Christians so hell bent on saving peoples life if people are going to heaven anyway? Wasn't it better for Terry to go to Heaven??? Why did you want her to stay here and suffer? End3, are you that Evil that you like to torture people?

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I can see ya'lls point about proof, but I do not understand how you can look at something that has evloved, especially man, to know with certainty the original.

 

I don't wish to be mean either, but I don't see proof from your side either. I do enjoy the conversation. It is one thing that makes me feel "alive". Thanks MM

Who said certainty on anything anywhere is possible? No one knows anything with certainty, since no one can know everything. Why is certainty a criteria for accepting something? (Read my signature below as clue how that works).

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I don't mind discussing, but when I present my beliefs, some get mad and then make statement of how arrogant, or retarded, or stupid, or lame, or....you asked me, and I told you. Why, if I don't agree, does this make me all of those things. A simple OK would be fine. I am listening to your responses about the brain thing, but I don't agree as of today. Some of you were in Christianity for X number of years. Could an ex come into church and say, "You believe this reality today! Otherwise, you are a an idiot".

 

Physiological, I got it.

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Absolutely how I felt during the Terry thing in that she wasnt even present, just her body for people to fight over and why in Gods name doesnt a mother that claims to be a christian let a child go that is in that shape? I cant help it to me that was the selfishest display of motherhood Id ever seen. If I truly believed to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord then why act like that hanging onto a corpse that is kept alive on tubes?

 

that was heartless to me, Im a mother and I know it would really hurt me deeply to have to let my child go but in all honesty its not all about ME

 

sojourner

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Absolutely how I felt during the Terry thing in that she wasnt even present, just her body for people to fight over and why in Gods name doesnt a mother that claims to be a christian let a child go that is in that shape? I cant help it to me that was the selfishest display of motherhood Id ever seen. If I truly believed to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord then why act like that hanging onto a corpse that is kept alive on tubes?

 

that was heartless to me, Im a mother and I know it would really hurt me deeply to have to let my child go but in all honesty its not all about ME

 

sojourner

The only conclusions I have is that Terry's parents were driven by one or some of these factors:

 

1) They couldn't admit their daughter didn't have any brain left. It was just an empty shell with a mix of protein and water. They couldn't understand that fact

 

2) They though they acted on emotions, but those emotions were misguided and completely out of reason or reality

 

3) They didn't like Terry's husband and wanted to get back at him

 

4) They thought there were still some money left in her trust account that they could take

 

There might be more factors here, but those are the ones I thought about back then.

 

It's important to remember that the autopsy said: "Terri Schiavo suffered severe, irreversible brain damage that left that organ discolored and scarred, shriveled to half its normal size, and damaged in nearly all its regions, including the one responsible for vision, according to an autopsy report released yesterday."

 

And also that she told her husband that if she ever go into a state like this, she wanted him to turn off the machines. It was HER WISH.

 

End3 is a person that stands on the other side and want to force people to live or die based on his opinion and emotions. To have a society driven by emotions instead of reasons is extremely dangerous.

 

If someone say "If I become brain dead. Then turn off the machines." Then it was their option and their will and their choice. How come Christians are so eager to take away the Free Will of people just because they "feel" like it? Shame on them. They're just a bunch of lying hypocrites.

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How do you know who or what I am Hans, do you have all the "facts"?

Do you?

 

You make emotional pleading based on lack of facts and knowledge, and that's how you argue. Things are "right" according to how you see it because of things you don't know. You don't have all the facts either. Ever thought about that?

 

So answer me this: why did you even bring up Terry Shiavo if you didn't have the facts, and then argued emotionally about "kill all injured and eat them"? That's just some absurd arguments and not the facts.

 

Here's the reason why it's irritating. You talk like you do know the facts. You talk like you have the "rigth" view of things and that emotions, faith, belief and religion is the way to look at life and understand nature. And I strongly disagree.

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I don't remember the specifics of the Shivo case, I will grant you that. But I do remember it causing a large debate about "is she in there". I don't know. I have faith that there is a soul in there. I can also see the science, but agree with the faith. I was trying to say MM, that if the entire US had problems with the delimma, that being an average guy from west Texas did not make me an authority. There were numerous intelligent people on both sides. You were asking me to make the definitive call on that.

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end3 here is a question for you ok? Like you I still believe in a soul and spirit

 

Do you think God would have kept the soul of Terry confined in a useless body all that time? What would be the point?

 

I see someone brought up the point that till now this wasnt even an option, modern medicine brings this question that used to be decided for us. There was a time when it was simple, they couldnt keep you alive like that.

 

sojourner

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I don't remember the specifics of the Shivo case, I will grant you that. But I do remember it causing a large debate about "is she in there". I don't know. I have faith that there is a soul in there. I can also see the science, but agree with the faith. I was trying to say MM, that if the entire US had problems with the delimma, that being an average guy from west Texas did not make me an authority. There were numerous intelligent people on both sides. You were asking me to make the definitive call on that.

But wasn't she a Christian? Wouldn't she go to heaven? Her brain was gone and beyond repair. Unless you could have prayed for her and caused a miracle, she would never be a human again. Why didn't you pray for her and give her a miracle before the media circus? Why judge her husband when it was too late? It's easy to sit on the side and judge people. Please, stop that, and study the subject first.

 

If you didn't know the details, why didn't you research first before you make emotional pleadings that don't fit the facts? Why did you do it, unless you just wanted to "win" the argument, but doing so without having any real facts or evidence. Start reading up on things before you throw emotional arguments out there.

 

People had a problem with the case because they did not know either. They just did what you just did. Throw out emotional arguments based on rumours. My mom does that at alot. And it annoys me, becuase it is basically lying from ignorance. Claim things that are untrue without even trying to research the background.

 

I have to go to work. More to come later...

 

--edit--

 

Important note:

 

To keep people alive using medical advancements and technology is acting as God.

 

If it is God's will for someone to die, then we are doing wrong by keeping them alive.

 

It's acting against God's will.

 

Do you disagree on this End3? Do you prefer to disobey God out of emotions?

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I thought end3 wanted to talk about love. Now he's talking like a cannibal. :ugh: Even the ugliest christians I know aren't quite THAT bad.

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Sojourner, some posts back you asked for a link on the brain and faith. I forget the exact terms you used but I was reminded of the articles on God and the Brain that I found so helpful. Some of this was discussed here, in case you didn't see it, from both the Christian and nonChristian perspectives. I think when one takes all of these articles and discussions together with Madame's arguments regarding the frontal lobe of the brain one gets a "natural" explanation for "soul" or "spirit."

 

Soj, in another post you went on a little rant about the different views about God and your problems with them. I think that is okay. It helps you work through your ideas and beliefs. It helps develop critical thinking skills so that what you hold as true is your own and not just something someone else told you to believe. It is much easier to defend one's own beliefs than some hand-me-down stuff from an ancient tradition.

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My post about eating people was sarcasm.....part of my problem is I don't write in complete thoughts. I am sorry that there is misunderstanding.

 

Soj,

If it were my child, I would have emotion about missing them if I let them go(turned off the machines). I would want to do the best I could for my child. Intelligent people work relentlessly to deafeat death i.e. cancer etc. I think they do this out of love as well. I would pray that I make the right decision and rely on what was right in my heart via the HS to answer "what is God's decision"and then trust.

 

I think the point would be: Look at the commuity of Love coming together to defeat death, faith and intellect.

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Soj,

If it were my child, I would have emotion about missing them if I let them go(turned off the machines). I would want to do the best I could for my child. Intelligent people work relentlessly to deafeat death i.e. cancer etc. I think they do this out of love as well. I would pray that I make the right decision and rely on what was right in my heart via the HS to answer "what is God's decision"and then trust.

 

Ok. seeking wisdom for the sake of the child and not just hanging on out of selfish motives is good I think too

 

I think the point would be: Look at the commuity of Love coming together to defeat death, faith and intellect.

 

You lost me here, I dont understand what you are saying in that sentence above

 

sojourner

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If it were my child, I would have emotion about missing them if I let them go(turned off the machines). I would want to do the best I could for my child.

 

 

As a christian then, isn't the BEST thing for your child to leave this world to meet with jesus? Why cry, struggle, pray, have horrific emotional break downs, *if* you *know* by faith they are going to heaven? You know what? Deep down inside you don't really *know* at all, faith or otherwise, where they are going, if anywhere at all.

 

If you *really*, honestly thought that she would float up to heaven if the machines were turned off, which is defeating the natural death process in the first place, you would JOYOUSLY pull the plug yourself, then celebrate, not mourn them.

 

It is said we mourn the departed, not for their sakes, but for our own, we will miss them and it hurts. That is true for the most part, but it is also true that we see a mirror of ourselves. We see in the death of others the mortality of life. We *know* by observation that we too will walk that path, we too will die one day. Seeing someone else is a harsh reminder of this fact of life, and it is in your face.

 

Christians like to say there are "no atheists in fox holes". I say there are no christians in fox holes. The fear of death is so strong, they huddle in the hole, pop up to shot now and they do that to defend their lives, more so then their faith or anything else. If you *thought* you *really* were saved and protected by the lord, you would fearlessly jump up and run to the enemy, knowing the lord is on your side, and you would win the day.

 

And let me ask you this, if xtianty is real, why not faith heal shivo? Why not raise her from the dead AFTER the plug is pulled? The bible you hold so dear and get your religion from says right in it that if you believe you CAN do these things, and more! It really does say that, does it lie?

 

Oh I see it's a metaphor huh? Anything stupid or that doesnt make sense, or contradicts is a metaphor right? That's pretty damned convient don't you think? A wee bit too convient.

 

Think about it.

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Thanks Ruby for the links

 

my rant really has taken years

 

I first left armenianism belief back in around 1995 after 12 years beliving it, went to calvinism then saw the filth in that belief and landed in universalism and here I sit having folks tell me now in universalism that God is satan too and behind all the evil in the world - dont misunderstand , not all universalists believe this but some do and it sickens me to think there would be a god like that in charge of things. It makes no sense at all, honestly very little makes any sense

 

what I keep coming back to is what I believe in my gut, if you will

 

oh well its all laid out on the table and being very examined right now, dont know where I will end up

 

sojourner

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I think the point would be: Look at the commuity of Love coming together to defeat death

 

Your efforts to defeat death are in direct rebellion and disobedience against God. In Genesis 3 God tells Adam that because he ate of the forbidden fruit he will die. In Heb. 9:27 it is written that "it is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment."

 

Talking about rebellion, 1 Samuel 15:23 says, "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbonness is as iniquity and idolatory. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath rejected thee..."

 

I heard that in many and many a sermon when I was a Christian so you cannot say this is biased because I am not a Christian. Also, my Christian father was very much against using life support. Using life-support machines is NOT the way God-fearing people do things. People who trust in a loving and all-wise God to make good decisions do not prolong life with machines. Last March my Christian mother died an early death because she did not believe in prolonging life with machines. My Christian siblings and father strongly supported her decision.

 

There is no scriptural support for your attempt to defeat death. It is simply not there.

 

Also, your attempt to defeat death is a clear statement to the world that you do not believe in God, that you do not trust God, that you do not believe in heaven. Look at HanSolo. He knows what it is like having a child in critical condition. Yet what is he saying? He is saying: Face reality. Look at the facts.

 

What are you saying? You are saying: My child is going to die! Boo-hoo! Pity poor me! Nothing so bad has ever befallen humans! Nobody cares! Boo-hoo!

 

Okay, I don't know if your child is in danger of death but on another thread you said your biggest fear is the death of your child. On here you talk as if your biggest duty as a Christian were to defeat death. I happen to know something about the Christian message and that is not it.

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I think the point would be: Look at the commuity of Love coming together to defeat death, faith and intellect.

 

Sorry, I can't resist. Finally, a christian said it. Their community's purpose is to defeat intellect. I'm not sure why they are defeating faith though? Hmmmm...

 

Madame :3:

 

My guess is it's a typo. Poor end3 has confessed to not being a good writer. Also says he thinks intellectuals are going to hell. In his own words:

 

In my mind Soj, I put most intellectuals in the non-believing category.

 

I guess means we're going to hell. I'd much prefer your company in hell than his in heaven, if that means anything to you.:)

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No, MM, your interpretation is not what I was saying

 

I was saying faith and intellect are joining together to stop death. (did I mention I quit high school?_

 

Yes, you said:

 

I think the point would be: Look at the commuity of Love coming together to defeat death, faith and intellect.

 

In other words, according to the common rules of English grammar, the community of love comes together to defeat death, faith and intellect.

 

If that isn't what you mean they you need to clarify what you mean. You can't just twist and break the rules of grammar to suit your whims of the moment. Nobody mentioned high school. I don't know where that concept comes from. Are you in highschool?

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