Love

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks Ruby for the links

 

my rant really has taken years

 

I first left armenianism belief back in around 1995 after 12 years beliving it, went to calvinism then saw the filth in that belief and landed in universalism and here I sit having folks tell me now in universalism that God is satan too and behind all the evil in the world - dont misunderstand , not all universalists believe this but some do and it sickens me to think there would be a god like that in charge of things. It makes no sense at all, honestly very little makes any sense

 

what I keep coming back to is what I believe in my gut, if you will

 

oh well its all laid out on the table and being very examined right now, dont know where I will end up

 

sojourner

 

Soj, you're not the only one who has searched long and hard. This may not be down your alley but yesterday I found some articles that I found helpful for me in refuting Christianity. You might not want to refute Christianity but maybe they would provide you with tools to think through your questions. You can find the links here.

[Guest end3]

Mike,

You said why don't we fearlessly jump up and run out of fox holes.

 

Let me ask you a question. Why do the movies that seem to be the best are the ones where the underdog wins in the end. Because it was the guy that jumps up out of the foxhole and defeats the bad guy. Think about it.

[Alice]

"If God is the only source of love, sometimes he walks out on the injured and the diseased."

 

 

I don't know how that can be an absolute. I am with that person, so Love has not walked out...

 

end3 - the absolute is coming from christians who claim that God is the only source of love. I was making reference to those people who undergo brain trauma of some kind and no longer have a capacity to express or feel love as a result. If God is the source of love then he has walked out on them.

 

If love is an emotion generated and experienced in our brains, the loss of this capacity is an unhappy side effect of injury in the brain. If God generates love, then the loss of this feeling is either a negligence or an incompetence on his behalf.

 

Some of the sights I saw on the ward where my Father recovered from his brain surgery will stay with me forever - eventhough they did not affect me directly. A wife and a daughter were tenderly nursing their loved one as he came round from his surgery. Their excitement as he began to come round changed to horror as he began to spit and swear at them, he knocked the wash basin out of his wife's hand and spouted a whole stream of insults, his daughter tried to take his hand saying 'daddy?' - he pushed her so hard she fell.

 

I pressed the alarm for a nurse.

 

He had to be restrained and sedated. I remember talking to them and suggesting that this might be a temporary thing. My Mother stayed in touch with them for a while - he never recovered his capacity to feel love for his family and his new personality, once gentle and gracious remained hateful and violent. This was not a choice. This was what can happen when the brain - the source of love and compassion - is damaged.

[Ouroboros]

In my mind Soj, I put most intellectuals in the non-believing category. I am saying, thought, that somehow, we seem to work for the same goal. survival to them, deafeat of death to me.

By defeating death through medicine is going against God's will.

 

Show me where in the Bible you have support for keeping someone alive that is brain dead. There's isnt' any.

 

The Christian message is to defeat the spiritual death and the eternal death, not the bodily death. That Christians work so hard against letting someone die, only proves to me that they really don't believe in Heaven.

 

So when you End3 argue that it's wrong to let a braindead person pass on to Heaven and to keep them here in torture, it proves to me that you don't believe in Jesus, God and Heaven at all. You are doubting. Admit it, and come clean. It feels better after you have.

 

If you really believed in Jesus and Heaven, then you shouldn't have a problem to let people go there.

[Ouroboros]

Mike,

You said why don't we fearlessly jump up and run out of fox holes.

 

Let me ask you a question. Why do the movies that seem to be the best are the ones where the underdog wins in the end. Because it was the guy that jumps up out of the foxhole and defeats the bad guy. Think about it.

In this country, the atheists are the underdogs. We are only a small fraction, while 90% are in religious dominance and work hard on pushing their religious agenda on us.

[Ouroboros]

I've moved away from the original topic, so is it loving of god to make the smartest the hardest to save?

[Guest end3]

One at a time please.

 

Let me start....

 

Alice.

I can see your view and find that a bad situation for all. Sorry. I can not accept that there is no soul inside the body.

 

MM,

I do not want to be willfully ignorant.

I thinks God wants us to love as children do.

"Wisdom of the world"....have you listened to the media lately

"Brings us to a place of non-faith"... I think it points out that it will not be easy. I would assume that increased itelligence over the population would end up giving one extra pride after awhile and remaining there might take a person away from faith. "die to self" is the one of the phrases I despise most.

I think people can see God in creation, but why do you not accept it?

 

Hans,

I'm at a loss with your comments. I don't believe I am saying anything of the sort.

[Guest end3]

MM,

I have a bachelors degree.....but I spent most of my time being put off by the arrogant phD's.

[Guest end3]

Ok MM,

Tell me then why you want me to believe as you do. I am asking sincerely. And why is it not ok for me to remain in my faith?

[Ouroboros]

End3, are these some of your posts?

 

MM,

I agree with Soj on that one. Do you remember the Terri Shivo (sp)....the whole US could not define that, and I am just a redneck from Texas....My belief now is the soul is separate from the body, the Spirit can inhabit the body with the soul, and when we die, we inhabit the Spirit without the old earthly body....if that helps you understand where I am coming from.

 

So go kill everyone who is injured? I got it.....make food out of them for the poor people. Soilent greens!

 

Are these two posts above related to each other? What do you mean kill injured people and eat them? Do you mean the Terry Shiavo was only "injured" and by disconnecting her lifesupport we basically killed someone with a little scratch and we wanted to eat her? Explain yourself.

 

 

 

 

Are you also responsible for there posts?

 

No, MM, your interpretation is not what I was saying

 

I was saying faith and intellect are joining together to stop death. (did I mention I quit high school?_

 

MM,

I have a bachelors degree.....but I spent most of my time being put off by the arrogant phD's.

 

And you also had a post saying (can't find it right now) that say that you're just a redneck.

 

So what is it? Bachelors degree, or redneck without highschool?

 

I believe you're a fake. You are lying to us about who you are.

 

TROLL WARNING!!!

[Guest end3]

Hans,

You seem to know it all, you tell me. You have repeatedly tried to put me in some category....my soilent greens, flesh eating response was sarcasm on my part in response to YOUR post that you know exactly when life is worth living. Yes, I did quit high school. Yes, I took my GED. Yes, I went back and graduated from our local state university. That doesn't guarentee much as evidenced in my poor writing skills. Now do you understand?

[R. S. Martin]

Hans, found it with word search. Post 61 as follows (emphasis added):

 

MM,

I agree with Soj on that one. Do you remember the Terri Shivo (sp)....the whole US could not define that, and I am just a redneck from Texas....My belief now is the soul is separate from the body, the Spirit can inhabit the body with the soul, and when we die, we inhabit the Spirit without the old earthly body....if that helps you understand where I am coming from.

[R. S. Martin]

End3, you have not yet responded to this challenge. Both Hans and I made this charge that you are disobeying God by trying to defeat death. I provide Bible verses as listed below. If you are for real I would like to see a well-reasoned argument. If your bachelor's degree is for real I would like to see writing skills and an argument to prove it. Otherwise you got some 'splainin' to do.

 

I think the point would be: Look at the commuity of Love coming together to defeat death

 

Your efforts to defeat death are in direct rebellion and disobedience against God. In Genesis 3 God tells Adam that because he ate of the forbidden fruit he will die. In Heb. 9:27 it is written that "it is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment."

 

Talking about rebellion, 1 Samuel 15:23 says, "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbonness is as iniquity and idolatory. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath rejected thee..."

 

I heard that in many and many a sermon when I was a Christian so you cannot say this is biased because I am not a Christian. Also, my Christian father was very much against using life support. Using life-support machines is NOT the way God-fearing people do things. People who trust in a loving and all-wise God to make good decisions do not prolong life with machines. Last March my Christian mother died an early death because she did not believe in prolonging life with machines. My Christian siblings and father strongly supported her decision.

 

There is no scriptural support for your attempt to defeat death. It is simply not there.

 

Also, your attempt to defeat death is a clear statement to the world that you do not believe in God, that you do not trust God, that you do not believe in heaven. Look at HanSolo. He knows what it is like having a child in critical condition. Yet what is he saying? He is saying: Face reality. Look at the facts.

 

What are you saying? You are saying: My child is going to die! Boo-hoo! Pity poor me! Nothing so bad has ever befallen humans! Nobody cares! Boo-hoo!

 

Okay, I don't know if your child is in danger of death but on another thread you said your biggest fear is the death of your child. On here you talk as if your biggest duty as a Christian were to defeat death. I happen to know something about the Christian message and that is not it.

[Guest end3]

let me look at it Ruby

[Alice]

Alice.

 

I can see your view and find that a bad situation for all. Sorry. I can not accept that there is no soul inside the body.

 

I had not made any reference to the soul. My comments related to love. When you say that you can see my view what are you saying? That you accept that if God is the source of love, then he has walked away from those who cannot experience or express love following brain injury, or are you accepting that the capacity to generate and feel love lies in our brains and is sometimes damaged by injury?

[Ouroboros]

Hans,

You seem to know it all, you tell me. You have repeatedly tried to put me in some category....my soilent greens, flesh eating response was sarcasm on my part in response to YOUR post that you know exactly when life is worth living.

I didn't say I know exactly when a life is worth living or not. He wish was to die if she ever got into this situation, and you make the claim it was wrong to let her go. So you are the one claiming to know better than Terry and her husband. You are the one who make judgments based on poor knowledge and emotional arguments. Shake religion of your back and get your head together. You claim to know exactly how things are, without even studying them. You even admitted when I forced this subject on you that you did not know ALL THE FACTS in this matter, and yet you are here making strong judgments based on your belief. Is that ignorance or what? If you're gonna claim something... well put your diploma to good use and do some research.

 

For instance, do you seriously claim that someone without a brain is alive? Should we keep bodies alive when the head is gone?

 

Yes, I did quit high school. Yes, I took my GED. Yes, I went back and graduated from our local state university. That doesn't guarentee much as evidenced in my poor writing skills. Now do you understand?

Then I'm very surprised that you used your "quit high-school" as an argument when it's only half-true. Half-truth is a lie, according to most Christians. To lie once makes you a liar to most Christians. So according to your own religion and belief you are a liar. That's how your friends argue. That's how Christians come here and tell us. We have to be saved because we're liars, and we're liars because we told something that wasn't fully true. So now, face the music. Now it's your turn. Christians should not lie or tell half-truths.

 

You better start being honest with me. Even if I'm an atheist, I don't lie and I hate liars. I'm straight and honest with my wife, my kids, my friends, on my tax report and in business. If I don't know something, of if I'm guessing, I rather explain that or not say anything at all, but I don't present half-truths. If I ever do, I'm sincerely displeased with myself and ask for forgiveness from the other party. Why do I repeatedly see Christians coming to this site telling half-lies and using non-supported or false facts to argue their case, and when forced on the issue they never say they're sorry but then suddenly they think it's okay to be dishonest? And to me End3, when someone is dishonest with me, they're put on the bottom of the list. You gain trust with me by being honest. I don't demand that you know everything, but to gain trust from me you better start being truthful.

[Guest end3]

"If God is the only source of love, sometimes he walks out on the injured and the diseased."

 

 

I don't know how that can be an absolute. I am with that person, so Love has not walked out...

 

end3 - the absolute is coming from christians who claim that God is the only source of love. I was making reference to those people who undergo brain trauma of some kind and no longer have a capacity to express or feel love as a result. If God is the source of love then he has walked out on them.

 

If love is an emotion generated and experienced in our brains, the loss of this capacity is an unhappy side effect of injury in the brain. If God generates love, then the loss of this feeling is either a negligence or an incompetence on his behalf.

 

Some of the sights I saw on the ward where my Father recovered from his brain surgery will stay with me forever - eventhough they did not affect me directly. A wife and a daughter were tenderly nursing their loved one as he came round from his surgery. Their excitement as he began to come round changed to horror as he began to spit and swear at them, he knocked the wash basin out of his wife's hand and spouted a whole stream of insults, his daughter tried to take his hand saying 'daddy?' - he pushed her so hard she fell.

 

I pressed the alarm for a nurse.

 

He had to be restrained and sedated. I remember talking to them and suggesting that this might be a temporary thing. My Mother stayed in touch with them for a while - he never recovered his capacity to feel love for his family and his new personality, once gentle and gracious remained hateful and violent. This was not a choice. This was what can happen when the brain - the source of love and compassion - is damaged.

 

Alice,

What I am saying is, I can understand you rational, that this happens physiologically, but I can't agree that that is all. I can't say that because WE see these things, loss of love, etc, that this means that the original soul, with love, is not in there. Hope that helps.

[Antlerman]

end3 here is a question for you ok? Like you I still believe in a soul and spirit

 

Do you think God would have kept the soul of Terry confined in a useless body all that time? What would be the point?

 

sojourner

This brought a thought to my mind. If Christians believe the soul and spirit is tied to body, as in the Terry case, why do they bury the dead instead of burning them to destroy the previous home of the sprit so it can be released into heaven? Many religions believe this is necessary, yet Christians preserve the body (an thus trapping the soul in a box for the 1,000,000 years until the box and bones all turn to dust. "Nice! Thanks a lot!," says the departed from their bronzed casket in the ground.

 

Maybe what really happens in brain injuries like MM described is that the original spirit left the body, and another disembodied spirit from another person with a brain injury jumped into their body effectively taking up residence in their old body. This effectively explains the shift of personalities, without having to pay all those expensive fees to medical doctors to tell you what's going on. Plus it somewhat squares with the Bible when it describes personality shifts in people as demonic possession. But what does science really know? They haven't proved that demons don't exist yet.

 

End3, do you believe these personality shifts are due to demon possession, or is there a natural explanation for them?

[Alice]

Alice,

What I am saying is, I can understand you rational, that this happens physiologically, but I can't agree that that is all. I can't say that because WE see these things, loss of love, etc, that this means that the original soul, with love, is not in there. Hope that helps.

 

Nope - that doesn't help. What's the soul got to do with it?

 

I think you are muddling up a couple of conversations. I'm just talking about the belief that God is the source of love. This would mean that if someone was unable to express or feel love then God was no longer supplying them with love.

 

Now whilst many christians claim that non believers cannot experience 'true' love without God, it is generally acknowldeged that the capacity to experience and express some level of love is pretty universal, but some people lose this capacity - usually as a result of some kind of brain injury. What a ghastly God - to withdraw the capacity to love from some of those who suffer brain injury!

[Guest end3]

Hans,

Those statements were attempts at being self-deprecating. I assure you it was not intentional.

 

To me Hans, a living, breathing, body, with no brain, could contain a soul.

[Ouroboros]

Hans,

Those statements were attempts at being self-deprecating. I assure you it was not intentional.

 

To me Hans, a living, breathing, body, with no brain, could contain a soul.

So is a body, without a brain, incapable of seeing, have no hearing, can't taste, can't feel, do not communicate, can't eat and got no brain activity, but somehow still have a soul, not better of to be in Heaven? At what point does a body stop having the soul? When the heart stops? Or when the brain stops?

 

Does a decapitated person contain a soul? In which part? In the head or the body? Or is that person now two souls? Or is the soul two half-souls?

[white_raven23]

Yes, I took my GED. Yes, I went back and graduated from our local state university. That doesn't guarentee much as evidenced in my poor writing skills. Now do you understand?

 

And you have your bachelor's degree? From where? In what? Phys Ed?

 

I can say for a fact that a creditable bachelor's degree from a state university REQUIRES better writing skills to pass! How did you get around all the paper writing? Have someone else do it for you? Like I believe you occasionally do on here?

[Guest end3]

Alice,

I am trying.....I think a soul comes from God and gets "put" into the body at some given time, let's say birth, (so we won't have to argue that),love and all. If the body get's damaged, that doesn't mean that the soul is not still in there. How do you know God is ghastly, Why can you not also put God at work inside the damaged body? Why can you not see it as Jesus's body, (nurses), at work helping an injured person?

 

You asked what does a soul have to do with it. I think we are given a soul that is as close to perfect as I can imagine, at birth. Love, nothing tainted, in a new birth. That is my explanation for the connection between the soul and love.

[Deva]

Hans,

Those statements were attempts at being self-deprecating. I assure you it was not intentional.

 

To me Hans, a living, breathing, body, with no brain, could contain a soul.

 

This End3 is obviously not the same person who first posted on its thread "Moses' Glowing Face." That person claimed to be an uneducated redneck and I guarantee you that person would never write a sentence such as we see here, nor have a fancy latin signature. End3 is a troll and a fraud. That is why I will not engage in further conversations with him/it.

[Alice]

Alice,

I am trying.....I think a soul comes from God and gets "put" into the body at some given time, let's say birth, (so we won't have to argue that),love and all. If the body get's damaged, that doesn't mean that the soul is not still in there. How do you know God is ghastly, Why can you not also put God at work inside the damaged body? Why can you not see it as Jesus's body, (nurses), at work helping an injured person?

 

You asked what does a soul have to do with it. I think we are given a soul that is as close to perfect as I can imagine, at birth. Love, nothing tainted, in a new birth. That is my explanation for the connection between the soul and love.

 

I am saying that if God is the source of love, then sometimes he stops providing this love in those who have experienced brain injury. Ghastly.

 

To no longer be able to express or experience love, to have someone you love lose this capacity and see it replaced with a violent and hateful personality because they have undergone brain surgery - that is ghastly. In fact I can't think of many things that would be worse. Believing that this is the horrible side effect of injury is one thing - believing that God is responsible for whether or not we feel love or can love - is quite another.