Guest Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Just thought of this this morning. Church is attacked by gunman. People are shot. Police must investagate. Police are paid...by tax dollars. Churchs do not pay taxes. So how much more is everyone else going to have to pay just so a church can have more $$?!?!?! This needs to stop. Churchs should pay their fair share like every other business, or they revoke their right for police and fire department protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhia Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Now, I'm not typically one to defend churches by any means - but here's where the problem lies: it's all well and good to not give fire and police protection to a building that does not pay taxes, or to a person who does not pay taxes (i.e. a pastor); but the people who were shot (I'm assuming) were tax-paying citizens. They pay their car, income, State, and Federal taxes, even though they attend a tax-free established congregation. Therefore, since they do pay their taxes, the police are being paid by them. Now, if someone where to burn down the church - that's when it gets hazy as to what is ethically acceptable to do with tax-payer's money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 the people who were shot (I'm assuming) were tax-paying citizens. They pay their car, income, State, and Federal taxes... Therefore, since they do pay their taxes, the police are being paid by them. Exactly. Furthermore, public schools don't pay taxes, do they? If police and fire services are to be denied to institutions that do not pay taxes, then public schools would have to be denied those services as well. Also, the whole reason churches do not pay taxes is that they have 501c3 status, which means they have abdicated certain rights to the government, such as free speech. If a pastor's church is tax exempt, he cannot endorse political candidates or take political positions. According to http://hushmoney.org/501c3-problems.htm , churches have effectively become state churches: In Bob Jones University v. United States (461 U.S. 574), the U.S. Supreme Court noted the following about the government’s intended purpose for the 501c3: The Court asserts that an exempt organization must “demonstrably serve and be in harmony with the public interest,†must have a purpose that comports with “the common community conscience,†and must not act in a manner “affirmatively at odds with [the] declared position of the whole Government.†Taken together, these passages suggest that the primary function of a tax-exempt organization is to act on behalf of the Government in carrying out governmentally approved policies... When a church accepts the 501c3 status, that church: Waives its freedom of speech. Waives its freedom of religion. Waives its right to influence legislators and the legislation they craft. Waives its constitutionally guaranteed rights. Is no longer free to speak to the vital issues of the day. Becomes controlled by a spirit of fear that if it doesn’t toe the line with the IRS it will lose its tax-exempt status. Becomes a State-Church. The point is, what we really have in America is not a system of churches controlling the government, but the government controlling the churches. Granted candidates play "religious" to get votes, but, on the other hand, have you ever wondered why so many church folk are in lock-step with the government on issues such as the war? Who is controlling whom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marty Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Now, I'm not typically one to defend churches by any means - but here's where the problem lies: it's all well and good to not give fire and police protection to a building that does not pay taxes, or to a person who does not pay taxes (i.e. a pastor); but the people who were shot (I'm assuming) were tax-paying citizens. They pay their car, income, State, and Federal taxes, even though they attend a tax-free established congregation. Therefore, since they do pay their taxes, the police are being paid by them. Now, if someone where to burn down the church - that's when it gets hazy as to what is ethically acceptable to do with tax-payer's money. Gotcha. After I posted that I realized I may have sounded like I wasn't thinking about the people who were killed. I did NOT consider it from your angle, thanks! The fire (or a robbery) are better examples. But even then, a fire should be put out anyway to prevent other buildings from catching fire, so it just turns into this huge slippery slope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 OTOH if the building were empty, and it burned down without danger of spreading the fire, shit let er burn. I hope one day the damned tax free status from morontheists are removed. I think even scientology is tax free and it's founder even said once "the best way to get rich is to start a religion" in one of his books. Even when the founder ADMITS it's a scam, they still get tax exempt status. I bet if you started the "First Church Of Atheists", it would be tax exempt too... Wow and we wonder why our country has budget problems... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Furthermore, public schools don't pay taxes, do they? If police and fire services are to be denied to institutions that do not pay taxes, then public schools would have to be denied those services as well. Public schools are funded by the tax payers. It is a state/ local government establishment which also in most cases also receives federal funds. Churches are not funded by the tax payers but by individuals gifts, there is a difference, it would have been more applicable if you used the red cross or some other volunteer based place. In saying that, I do not object to police and local agency's responding to a lunatic with a gun, bomb or any other device to kill innocent bystander's, I don't care where it happened. People do not deserve to be gunned down no matter what their faith or free exercise there of. I'd also like to point out that the laws of the town/ city/ state do not stop at the property of the Church, hence you wouldn't have very many armed citizens packing the pews which makes them sitting ducks. The point is, what we really have in America is not a system of churches controlling the government, but the government controlling the churches. Granted candidates play "religious" to get votes, but, on the other hand, have you ever wondered why so many church folk are in lock-step with the government on issues such as the war? Who is controlling whom? I agree with your tax exempt statements completely, nice job laying it out. I do think that one hand washes the other and both stand to gain huge benefits by the way it's set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artur Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Murderer was stopped dead by an armed Concealed Carry, this case a lady with a GUN! From here: Boyd said the female security guard was a hero in preventing further bloodshed, rushing to confront the gunman just inside the church. "She probably saved over a hundred lives," Boyd said of the guard, whom he said is not a law enforcement officer and used her personal weapon. Guns, not Jesus, indeed save Lives.. kFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueGiant Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Can't agree with this on a public-safety level. Not that they'd extend the same courtesy back to us, but it is the right thing to do, in addition to covering our own collective ass. Now as for the 501c3 status, I can see it as justified in some cases, such as those where the given church provides a public service (shelter, soup-kitchen, etc). It is definitely not in others (ex. FOTF.) Some do try to do good despite their faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Murderer was stopped dead by an armed Concealed Carry, this case a lady with a GUN! This is the one part of these shootings that stood out to me like a sore thumb. I can possibly see the need for a church to have security, but armed security? What's up with that? I have never heard of this before! P.S. You are absolutely right, in this case a gun stopped a crazed gunman, Jesus didn't do shit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 From reports gathered from news and from folks "on the ground" there at church site, she literally walked into hostile fire with people running crazy in front and around her, she took the shots that stopped the murderer and not a single round went *collateral*, into someone or -thing she wasn't aiming at. Don't give a fuck about her belief system, she "dun rite when rite needed dun". Reports are that she fired her magazine dry until the bad actor couldn't move. She didn't back off, hide or quit shooting. Sensei says "If your feet aren't moving the slide (of your pistol) needs to be." Lady earns a "First Place Winner" in an armed idiot fight. Whole lotta people better be thanking John Moses Browning and Col. Jeff Cooper this and every evening for the rest of their lives. kFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lamb on the lam Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Just caught the last 20 minutes of the Larry King interview with Ted Haggard's replacement and the woman who killed the perp. She seemed legitimate to me in her responses to Larry's questions and her demeanor was what I would expect, but the new pastor-in-chief of New Life seemed so strange to me. When the camera came back to them, he was grabbing a drink and sucking through the straw and when the father of one of the slain victim's in Arvada was talking, the pastor smiled briefly and then turned serious. I can't think of anything that was said that would make him smile this weird, detached smile. It was eerie. And I attended New Life at least twice while living in CO Springs. I found it to be a disturbing hour. The place gave me a headache. It was like attending a rock concert or a Bronco's game. And I remember how I use to try to plan my driving on Sunday mornings before or after their services, as there were so many cops who had to stop traffic on Hwy 83 in order to let the lambs loose for grazing at the nearby Olive Garden or Applebees after service. Colorado Springs is the Vatican of North America. Within 3 miles is Focus on the Famiily, which runs parallel to I-25, which is parallel to the Air Force Academy. It's all so surreal and I am so glad to be gone from that place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Public schools are funded by the tax payers. It is a state/ local government establishment which also in most cases also receives federal funds. Churches are not funded by the tax payers but by individuals gifts, there is a difference, it would have been more applicable if you used the red cross or some other volunteer based place. Yes, public school, unlike churches, are paid for by taxes. Good point. My point was, are we supposed to deny public services to institutions just because they don't pay taxes? Besides the inherent danger of letting fires, etc. go unchecked, it would be inordinately cruel (not that you were suggesting that). What are churches and other "non-profit", tax-exempt organizations supposed to do? Set up private fire, police and emergency services? That would be impractical, obviously. I don't think it would be unreasonable to charge them for services rendered, though. Send 'em a bill. In saying that, I do not object to police and local agency's responding to a lunatic with a gun, bomb or any other device to kill innocent bystander's, I don't care where it happened. People do not deserve to be gunned down no matter what their faith or free exercise there of. I'd also like to point out that the laws of the town/ city/ state do not stop at the property of the Church, hence you wouldn't have very many armed citizens packing the pews which makes them sitting ducks. You're right. There probably aren't many people in churches with guns and that does make them vulnerable. But nothing, at least where I live, prohibits people from bringing (concealed carry) guns to church. I agree with your tax exempt statements completely, nice job laying it out. I do think that one hand washes the other and both stand to gain huge benefits by the way it's set up. Thanks, but actually, the info was from the website. Honestly, I was criticizing the 501c3 system. As much as I dislike churches, due to how corrupt, cruel and manipulative they are, I think they should have independence from the government. If they have to pay taxes in order to do so, they would be better off. Religion in America, whatever it is, is supposed to be free from government control. Anything "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is inherently and grossly dangerous. As much as I distrust churches and pastors, I distrust the government and politicians even more so. I don't want politicians telling pastors how to pastor. They screw things up enough on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 "And I attended New Life at least twice while living in CO Springs. I found it to be a disturbing hour. The place gave me a headache. It was like attending a rock concert or a Bronco's game." It worked for the Nazis, who really just lifted the idea from the RCC and modified it... Remembering the 1988 UK election, it fails spectacularly on TV... it just becomes scary then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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