Guest WarrantedPVC Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 The "trigger" for my deconversion was basically a single question, "How do you know it's not the devil deceiving you to believe what you believe." Of course there were many other problems but this one started an avalanche.... Before anyone asks me, yes, I have read the Bible and I know that it reports the following stories (true or not) - Jesus was tempted and resisted the temptation - Jesus drove the devil out of the possessed man - Jesus was teaching good things etc etc. But none of that explains how I can be sure that Jesus wasn't deceived by the devil. If I were the devil, I'd gladly pretend Jesus defeated me or that I go out of that poor little man, I'd even let Jesus teach good things, all for the greater purpose of deceiving Jesus, all the audience, and everyone who believes in him, to the maximum degree. And why would a devil deceive you to believe the teachings of Jesus? Well, for example, if the Muslims are right then all Christians, good or bad, go to hell - and one of the most cunning tricks the devil can play in that case is to convert as many people as possible to Christianity... that would maximise the number of souls in hell. Thoughts? PVC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 You're absolutely right. There's no way to know for sure (if the story even was true). The Muslims have the same problem. The Satanic Verses allude to that very same issue and that's why Salman Rushdie now have to fear for his life. Furthermore, lets say there are some advanced alien race that can do mind manipulations and even make "miracles" with high tech equipment, how can someone be sure the whole things is a setup and a hoax from the planet Xlargoq? Actually, it would make more sense if it was... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbobrob Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 What a beautifully delicious turn around on the "devil has decieved you" ploy of Christians. I am so tired of being bashed over the head with that old chestnut.....will be fun to turn it on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I've tried this approach before and got a whole steaming handful of nothing from xians. They can't seem to get the concept...at least as I presented it. I said that what if the whole xian thing was an elaborate hoax by Satan to lead people astray? Jesus is the devil and he has demons behave like the "sick" people and he "cures" them. Easy. Then he "dies" and comes back again since you can't kill the supernatural and he can appear as an "angel of light" according to so many. This way people who don't buy in end up in his pocket and those who do buy in are his as well. He wins both ways. It's a great plan and it has caused a lot of pain and suffering in the process too which he's supposedly likes. The only ones that didn't fall for it were the Jews and they are the ones that he'd really like to yank away from YHWH but who knows what else he might do? I got some of the "a house divided cannot stand" (like xians are united) and "Beelzebub cannot cast out his own" (which is what Satan/jesus says...but I can't see why he couldn't cast out his own if it were part of the plan so this comment is stupid) but it seems they didn't/couldn't see the "maybe you're being duped" concept I was placing in their laps. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven, is that it?" "Why not? I'm here on the ground with my nose in it since the whole thing began. I've nurtured every sensation man's been inspired to have. I cared about what he wanted and I never judged him. Why? Because I never rejected him. In spite of all his imperfections, I'm a fan of man! I'm a humanist. Maybe the last humanist." - The Devil's Advocate. I wanted to put this as my sig but it was too long. Taph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PandaPirate Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 The "trigger" for my deconversion was basically a single question, "How do you know it's not the devil deceiving you to believe what you believe." Of course there were many other problems but this one started an avalanche.... Before anyone asks me, yes, I have read the Bible and I know that it reports the following stories (true or not) - Jesus was tempted and resisted the temptation - Jesus drove the devil out of the possessed man - Jesus was teaching good things etc etc. But none of that explains how I can be sure that Jesus wasn't deceived by the devil. If I were the devil, I'd gladly pretend Jesus defeated me or that I go out of that poor little man, I'd even let Jesus teach good things, all for the greater purpose of deceiving Jesus, all the audience, and everyone who believes in him, to the maximum degree. And why would a devil deceive you to believe the teachings of Jesus? Well, for example, if the Muslims are right then all Christians, good or bad, go to hell - and one of the most cunning tricks the devil can play in that case is to convert as many people as possible to Christianity... that would maximise the number of souls in hell. Thoughts? PVC I actually have a theory similar to yours. I sometimes have wondered if the REAL test for getting into heaven is this: You enter the front gates and the gatekeepers look to see if you believed in the bible, jesus, etc. If so, they laugh at you and say that if you actually bought this crap that you deserve to go to hell. The real test while here on earth is to be able to see bullshit and call it bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PandaPirate Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 You're absolutely right. There's no way to know for sure (if the story even was true). The Muslims have the same problem. The Satanic Verses allude to that very same issue and that's why Salman Rushdie now have to fear for his life. Furthermore, lets say there are some advanced alien race that can do mind manipulations and even make "miracles" with high tech equipment, how can someone be sure the whole things is a setup and a hoax from the planet Xlargoq? Actually, it would make more sense if it was... Hmmm...kinda like Descartes First Meditation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedah Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Ugghh...This is the most annoying flaw about fundies. Through all their starry eyed faith they dont seem to realize that "proof through faith" is the among the most ridiculous double standards man has ever come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 After reading this thread I don't think I'll ever feel inferior to any fundy ever again. I won't try to get them to see the joke is on them but I can cherish it to my heart and know I'm right. Those of you who don't know my family situation won't understand but they would take it as the highest form of blasphemy so just take my word for it. They're like the Amish and there's stuff you just don't say to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Thoughts? Just for fun, I wouldn't blame the devil The Jews hold that Saturday is the sabbath day. Saturday, among my fellow Asatruar, is seen as the day of Loki. And you know what Loki's part is in the pantheon of Asatru, dontcha? Yep, I say it's all a prank by Loki - the biggest prank of all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuaiDan Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Good thread. Not necessarily an original thought, but it's a great point , a useful weapon, and not often brought up in debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Hmmm...kinda like Descartes First Meditation? The demon deceiving him and then all would be a lie. Well, maybe it's better to suspend our beliefs instead of trying to find a reason to why we must believe. Why even try to figure out a solution to the problem of doubt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PandaPirate Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I look at it like this. xtians say that the devil is the author of confusion. By that logic, Paul is the devil. http://www.christianityisevil.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbobrob Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Ok, so what if Jesus was God, but once he was out of the way, the Devil appeared to Paul, pretending to bew Jesus, and got Paul to derail the early church before it got moving. The Christian Church would have been a very different, and possibly still completely Jewish denomination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I actually have a theory similar to yours. I sometimes have wondered if the REAL test for getting into heaven is this: You enter the front gates and the gatekeepers look to see if you believed in the bible, jesus, etc. If so, they laugh at you and say that if you actually bought this crap that you deserve to go to hell. The real test while here on earth is to be able to see bullshit and call it bullshit. Hey, I've often thought the exact same thing! I can't remember if someone on this site said that "Faith is a 'sin' against the intellect" or if that came from another site, but I think it's a great Truthâ„¢. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I thought of the same thing it really is an interesting idea because it works. People have done terrible things in the name of Christianity, far worse than others but the idea of Jesus being the devil makes perfect sense to me. If this was true that means the Jews were right all along in a sense (The ones that followed Christianiity were really being decieved by the devil). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimmyDtD Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 The devil did not know God's plan ahead of time. Jesus did. Satan entered into Judas so that Judas would betray Christ, and that he would be killed. Satan wanted Jesus killed, but did not realize that his death was part of God's plan for defeating Satan's plan for mankind. So, you see the devil was duped, and the devil was in fact part of his own defeat, which started at the cross and will be complete when he is thrown into the lake of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WarrantedPVC Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 The devil did not know God's plan ahead of time. Jesus did. Satan entered into Judas so that Judas would betray Christ, and that he would be killed. Satan wanted Jesus killed, but did not realize that his death was part of God's plan for defeating Satan's plan for mankind. So, you see the devil was duped, and the devil was in fact part of his own defeat, which started at the cross and will be complete when he is thrown into the lake of fire. How do you know it wasn't satan who deceived you to believe that? PVC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 The devil did not know God's plan ahead of time. So how do you explain all the religions, in some cases thousands of years before Christianity that are similar to Christainity. Basic apologetics, and the early apologists, explain them away by Satan knowing God's plan ahead of time. So, either Satan knew God's plan or he didn't. Which is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 The devil did not know God's plan ahead of time. Jesus did. Satan entered into Judas so that Judas would betray Christ, and that he would be killed. Satan wanted Jesus killed, but did not realize that his death was part of God's plan for defeating Satan's plan for mankind. So, you see the devil was duped, and the devil was in fact part of his own defeat, which started at the cross and will be complete when he is thrown into the lake of fire. Yet this dumbarse supposedly rules this physical world. Braindead much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimmyDtD Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 The devil did not know God's plan ahead of time. So how do you explain all the religions, in some cases thousands of years before Christianity that are similar to Christainity. Basic apologetics, and the early apologists, explain them away by Satan knowing God's plan ahead of time. So, either Satan knew God's plan or he didn't. Which is it? What are all these religions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 What are all these religions? Osiris, Attis, Dionysus, Mithras, just to name a few. Here's a quote from Justin Martyr: "When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter." [First Apology, 21] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuaiDan Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 And if not, did Satan have free will in his plan to enter Judas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Here's a quote from Justin Martyr: "When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter." [First Apology, 21] And to add to it, Justin Marty lived between 100 and 165 CE, and this was written some time are 150 CE. Which means, this text and opinion was just as fresh as most of the Gospels and letters. Wasn't it Justin Martyr that actually said that Satan deceived humanity with false saviors before Jesus, and that Satan copied the Gospel stories beforehand? Which would lead to that Satan did have foreknowledge. But heck, that's just an opinion of one of the founding fathers of the Christian faith, what can he know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 And if not, did Satan have free will in his plan to enter Judas? If Judas was forced to do what he did, can he really be blamed? And besides, Judas obeyed the will of God and the prophetic plan, so if he had refused, he would have been disobedient to God and still punished. Poor guy. He was a perfect patsy, and he's in Hell for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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