Proof, Proof, Proof.

[Guest Asheline]

So everyone is constantly screaming for proof.

Let me pose this thought:

 

The Christian God loves His children unconditionally and fully. True love cannot be imposed or forced on the receiver.

So if we had absolute 100% proof of God and complete un-knockable evidence:

 

God would be forcing Himself on us, therefore it would not be true love.

 

(please do not bring thoughts on "God obviously doesn't have true love because He sends people to Hell." Post those thoughts elsewhere, please.)

 

A key component of love is selflessness and offering the choice to others of loving. It is actually a very vulnerable place to be in. If God were saying "Here I am. Look. I'm right here. Here's all the evidence you need, all the proof, everything! Believe in me right now." we would be mindless drones who worship God out of necessity and the absence of any other option.

 

It is VERY VERY difficult to seek God despite the easier route of becoming a God-hating atheist.

This is obviously a personal opinion, but I think most of you will find it is very true. Life without those troubling questions about God? Life without any accountability to God, only that to yourself and your family? Life without church and those sinners who like to pretend they are Christians?? (even though even Christians ARE sinners). Yes, it is a difficult road to God, especially if you have had awful experiences in the church. However, I believe that the church is not necessarily always God. More often than not, it is a faulty group of people who are so full of themselves and morals and rules that they hurt newcomers and "outcasts."

But that's not Jesus, folks. The church can very often be everything BUT Jesus.

Ok, I've gone off on a major tangent here. Sorry.

 

Back to the main point: Complete proof of God would throw true love out the window.

 

By the way, I've noticed that ex-Christians and atheists and such love to respond with horribly insulting, self-demeaning comments. If you have intelligence and something to say, post something intelligent. If you are simply a reactive Christian-hater, please resist your impulse to blow up.

 

I would love to hear thoughts on this.

[Brother Jeff]

So everyone is constantly screaming for proof.

Let me pose this thought:

 

The Christian God loves His children unconditionally and fully. True love cannot be imposed or forced on the receiver.

So if we had absolute 100% proof of God and complete un-knockable evidence:

 

God would be forcing Himself on us, therefore it would not be true love.

 

(please do not bring thoughts on "God obviously doesn't have true love because He sends people to Hell." Post those thoughts elsewhere, please.)

 

A key component of love is selflessness and offering the choice to others of loving. It is actually a very vulnerable place to be in. If God were saying "Here I am. Look. I'm right here. Here's all the evidence you need, all the proof, everything! Believe in me right now." we would be mindless drones who worship God out of necessity and the absence of any other option.

 

It is VERY VERY difficult to seek God despite the easier route of becoming a God-hating atheist.

This is obviously a personal opinion, but I think most of you will find it is very true. Life without those troubling questions about God? Life without any accountability to God, only that to yourself and your family? Life without church and those sinners who like to pretend they are Christians?? (even though even Christians ARE sinners). Yes, it is a difficult road to God, especially if you have had awful experiences in the church. However, I believe that the church is not necessarily always God. More often than not, it is a faulty group of people who are so full of themselves and morals and rules that they hurt newcomers and "outcasts."

But that's not Jesus, folks. The church can very often be everything BUT Jesus.

Ok, I've gone off on a major tangent here. Sorry.

 

Back to the main point: Complete proof of God would throw true love out the window.

 

By the way, I've noticed that ex-Christians and atheists and such love to respond with horribly insulting, self-demeaning comments. If you have intelligence and something to say, post something intelligent. If you are simply a reactive Christian-hater, please resist your impulse to blow up.

 

I would love to hear thoughts on this.

The Arena is reserved for formal debate, so this topic will likely get moved, probably to the Lion's Den.

 

Coming in with a bunch of conditions and assumptions, aren't you? Typical.

 

It's not just proof of the existence of God that would be nice, but ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL, BECAUSE THERE IS NONE! ZERO! ZILCH! NADA!

 

So if I truly love my child, I can't impose my love on him and let him know it? True love for another in action is an active, protective love, not a love that can't be expressed. If I don't impose my love, then it is not true love.

 

It's actually easy to seek god. I was a devout fundamentalist Christian for 15 years of my life, and never had a problem seeking god. The problem was hearing back from god, and I finally realized that the very simple reason for the complete and utter silence from him was due to the fact that he does not exist!

 

Atheists generally do not hate god. We don't believe in god, so why would we waste time and emotional energy hating a being that we don't believe exists?

 

Life without those troubling questions about God? Life without any accountability to God, only that to yourself and your family? Life without church and those sinners who like to pretend they are Christians??

Sounds peaceful, doesn't it? We all are accountable to ourselves, our family, and to the society that we live in. But accountability to nonexistent beings? NO.

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but what you've come in here saying we've all heard a thousand times before, refuted it soundly, and dismissed it. If you are here to try to bring us back into the fundie cult, forget it. It ain't happenin'.

[white_raven23]

Back to the main point: Complete proof of God would throw true love out the window.

 

My parents are real. I can see them, smell them, talk to them, see the emotions on their faces. I have proof of their existence. I love them.

 

By your reasoning, my love for my parents (or friends) cannot be "true" love because I have absolute proof of their existence.

 

Your point is thus unproven, and evidence clearly exists to the contrary.

 

If you have intelligence and something to say, post something intelligent.

 

Okay. Intelligence dictates that I carefully read the descriptions of forums to get an idea of what is okay to post where. By doing so, I know that the Arena is for FORMAL debate only. So I know better than to start a Thread there, when clearly the Coliseum or the Lion's Den are more appropriate.

 

 

Mods? Can this thread be moved to a more appropriate spot?

[Vigile]

It is VERY VERY difficult to seek God despite the easier route of becoming a God-hating atheist.

 

Surely you jest. Asking the hard questions has always been the more difficult road to travel. Most are too lazy and complacent to do so and end up being pew warmers.

 

We don't hate that which we don't believe in btw.

 

As to the rest of your post. Ganesh loves you. He loves you so much that he has chosen not to offer up incontrivertable proof so as not to force you to believe.

 

 

If you have intelligence and something to say, post something intelligent.

 

Yes, by all means please post something intelligent if you have something intelligent to say. You're first post is putting my brain to sleep.

[HuaiDan]

I don't question God's love. I used to question his existence, but I think it's safe to assume now that I'm quite certain God, as defined by Xtianity, does not exist.

 

 

Asheline, do you believe God is infinite? In what aspects? Do you believe either God or his creation has free will?

[Grandpa Harley]

an other fucking loony come to convert the heathen... I scent lion food....

[Kelli]

So everyone is constantly screaming for proof.

 

That may be your perception. The reality is that most have already searched for proof and found none. We're not wandering around aimlessly looking for answers.

 

The Christian God loves His children unconditionally and fully. True love cannot be imposed or forced on the receiver.

So if we had absolute 100% proof of God and complete un-knockable evidence:

 

God would be forcing Himself on us, therefore it would not be true love.

 

That is one of the most non-sensical arguments I have heard yet. Damn, I really screwed up bigtime with my kids. Here I have spent all this time and effort raising them one-on-one, when all this time they'd have been better off if I had moved to Costa Rica and just sent them letters every once in a while.

 

(please do not bring thoughts on "God obviously doesn't have true love because He sends people to Hell." Post those thoughts elsewhere, please.)

 

It's a very pertinent part of the argument against the "unconditional love" you said god had for us, but whatever.

 

 

A key component of love is selflessness and offering the choice to others of loving. It is actually a very vulnerable place to be in. If God were saying "Here I am. Look. I'm right here. Here's all the evidence you need, all the proof, everything! Believe in me right now." we would be mindless drones who worship God out of necessity and the absence of any other option.

 

Um, yeah. You know, the OT addresses this quite well. You know, the parts where god allegedly appeared as a pillar of cloud and fire and performed tangible miracles (Mannah and quail and water from a rock anyone? Anyone?), yet the people still rebelled. Kinda blows that theory out of the water. Maybe actually try studying your own Bible while contriving your flawed theories.

 

 

It is VERY VERY difficult to seek God despite the easier route of becoming a God-hating atheist.

This is obviously a personal opinion, but I think most of you will find it is very true. Life without those troubling questions about God? Life without any accountability to God, only that to yourself and your family? Life without church and those sinners who like to pretend they are Christians?? (even though even Christians ARE sinners). Yes, it is a difficult road to God, especially if you have had awful experiences in the church. However, I believe that the church is not necessarily always God. More often than not, it is a faulty group of people who are so full of themselves and morals and rules that they hurt newcomers and "outcasts."

But that's not Jesus, folks. The church can very often be everything BUT Jesus.

 

LOL, god-hating atheist. Well personally, I am not an atheist, though I must admit I'm close to that point. I have more evidence of the spiritual through paranormal experiences than I ever have had with god through church and that is the only thing that keeps me from saying I'm a full-blown atheist. Not everyone on this site is an atheist, there's quite a few of us agnostics and other flavors of ex-christian theists. Like others have said, it's hard to hate something you don't believe exists. What I do hate is when people make ignorant false assumptions.

 

 

Back to the main point: Complete proof of God would throw true love out the window.

 

And again, I think we've proven that theory to be completely false.

 

 

By the way, I've noticed that ex-Christians and atheists and such love to respond with horribly insulting, self-demeaning comments. If you have intelligence and something to say, post something intelligent. If you are simply a reactive Christian-hater, please resist your impulse to blow up.

 

Funny, I experience that all the time on Christian message boards, and I do frequent them. Somehow I've managed not to get banned from most of them, so I guess that means I can handle myself well. But please note that often christians will take what is not meant to be so, as an insult. That said, I hope you can come up with some new material, otherwise we'll likely get bored of this "debate" rather quickly.

 

 

 

~Kelli

[Deva]

The Christian God loves His children unconditionally and fully. True love cannot be imposed or forced on the receiver.

So if we had absolute 100% proof of God and complete un-knockable evidence:

 

God would be forcing Himself on us, therefore it would not be true love.

 

(please do not bring thoughts on "God obviously doesn't have true love because He sends people to Hell." Post those thoughts elsewhere, please.)

 

God sends people to hell, God sends people to hell,God sends people to hell,God sends people to hell...

 

If you don't want an angry response, don't come on here like some kind of moderator and tell us where we can post our thoughts. The hell question is very, very pertinent. You have to reconcile a God of love with the same one who will throw people into hell, just how do you do it? The rest of your logic isn't working out very well and I suspect you don't want to address this question because you don't have an answer. Am I right?

[Guest WarrantedPVC]

So everyone is constantly screaming for proof.

Let me pose this thought:

 

The Christian God loves His children unconditionally and fully. True love cannot be imposed or forced on the receiver.

So if we had absolute 100% proof of God and complete un-knockable evidence:

 

God would be forcing Himself on us, therefore it would not be true love.

God already forces things on us. Eg. we can't choose to disobey gravity. He seems to have left "freedom" in all the wrong bits.

 

It is VERY VERY difficult to seek God despite the easier route of becoming a God-hating atheist.

You couldn't be more wrong about that.

 

It is a LOT more difficult to honestly accept what reality is like than it is to live in a comfort bubble which tells you there is an almighty being who is your father and cares for you and loves you deeply. For most of us here, the deconversion from Christianity was the most painful experience of our lives. I know it was for me. Whatever you or any other Christian believe, it doesn't change the fact that I am lot less happier now than I was as a Christian. So why don't I convert straight back? Because truth is more important to me than personal happiness.

 

Besides, I don't hate God. I don't think he exists. And I never left God. He left me. And I was hurting because of that, very deeply. Do you understand that?

 

I know that is probably very difficult for you to understand. It is much easier for you to jump to unjustified conclusions. So, whatever. We don't have to defend ourselves to you.

 

By the way, I've noticed that ex-Christians and atheists and such love to respond with horribly insulting, self-demeaning comments. If you have intelligence and something to say, post something intelligent. If you are simply a reactive Christian-hater, please resist your impulse to blow up.

There are some ex-Christians or atheists who will be like that, yes. But it is because of how deeply hurt they are.

 

You are not resisting your own impulses either to hurt people more than you think. You only reap what you sow.. If you assume things about people, they will assume things about you. If you hurt them by your insensitivity, it's likely that they will hurt you by the very same insensitivity they got from you.

 

PVC

[Purple]

So everyone is constantly screaming for proof.

Let me pose this thought:

 

The Christian God loves His children unconditionally and fully. True love cannot be imposed or forced on the receiver.

So if we had absolute 100% proof of God and complete un-knockable evidence:

 

God would be forcing Himself on us, therefore it would not be true love.

 

For serious???

 

(please do not bring thoughts on "God obviously doesn't have true love because He sends people to Hell." Post those thoughts elsewhere, please.)

 

A key component of love is selflessness and offering the choice to others of loving. It is actually a very vulnerable place to be in. If God were saying "Here I am. Look. I'm right here. Here's all the evidence you need, all the proof, everything! Believe in me right now." we would be mindless drones who worship God out of necessity and the absence of any other option.

 

It is VERY VERY difficult to seek God despite the easier route of becoming a God-hating atheist.

This is obviously a personal opinion, but I think most of you will find it is very true. Life without those troubling questions about God? Life without any accountability to God, only that to yourself and your family? Life without church and those sinners who like to pretend they are Christians?? (even though even Christians ARE sinners). Yes, it is a difficult road to God, especially if you have had awful experiences in the church. However, I believe that the church is not necessarily always God. More often than not, it is a faulty group of people who are so full of themselves and morals and rules that they hurt newcomers and "outcasts."

But that's not Jesus, folks. The church can very often be everything BUT Jesus.

Ok, I've gone off on a major tangent here. Sorry.

 

Back to the main point: Complete proof of God would throw true love out the window.

 

By the way, I've noticed that ex-Christians and atheists and such love to respond with horribly insulting, self-demeaning comments. If you have intelligence and something to say, post something intelligent. If you are simply a reactive Christian-hater, please resist your impulse to blow up.

 

I would love to hear thoughts on this.

 

 

My thoughts would repeat a lot of what others have already posted. The fact I know someone, or some being exists, does not discount free will in loving them. I know my girlfriend exists, I love her. My kids know I exist, they love me. Knowledge is not force, all the knowledge of god's existance would do would be to allow people to make an informed decision. An unrushed, fully informed decision is best, it does not invalidate the decision.

 

What if a loved one of yours told you they were getting married, to someone they had never met, on the other side of the planet, and, honestly they didn't even know if said person existed. Would you say "Wow, that is such a beautiful love story." or would you be shocked, scared and concerned for them? I know if it was my daughter I would strongly advise against her doing so. I would say to her, that if this person truly loved her, he would want to meet her, and her family BEFORE the wedding, and he would want her, and her family to know him, and, if her family honestly loved her, he'd want them to know him as well. That is if he was for real, not running some scam, and truly loved her.

 

When someone wants you to make a serious, life altering decision, but withholds vital information, that's not being a gentleman who is unforceful. In real life, that's called a conman.

[mwc]

So everyone is constantly screaming for proof.

Let me pose this thought:

 

The Christian God loves His children unconditionally and fully. True love cannot be imposed or forced on the receiver.

So if we had absolute 100% proof of God and complete un-knockable evidence:

 

God would be forcing Himself on us, therefore it would not be true love.

 

(please do not bring thoughts on "God obviously doesn't have true love because He sends people to Hell." Post those thoughts elsewhere, please.)

It's about time a rational thought like this has been posted here. I've read the replies of the others and all I can say to them is 'Shame on you!' This person (I'm sorry that I cannot ascertain if you are man or woman from your name) speaks great wisdom.

 

Truth be told I have never met my parents, my siblings or my spouse. The only people I have ever met would be what I consider to be "rapists." Yes, emotional and even "spiritual" rapists. Those I truly "love" and I know truly love me are those I have yet to actually meet. They reveal themselves to me in other ways but I've never actually met or communicated with them. I've always had a "proxy" of some sort relay our messages to and fro (their messages to me are basically the same while mine tend to differ dramatically). The proxy tells me I will, one day, meet them if I prove worthy, and I truly look forward to that day. I pay him a little bit for his services (and this proxy service is well worth the money...for example they have get together's where I can mingle with others like myself and other fun things in addition to just the proxy service itself).

 

A key component of love is selflessness and offering the choice to others of loving. It is actually a very vulnerable place to be in. If God were saying "Here I am. Look. I'm right here. Here's all the evidence you need, all the proof, everything! Believe in me right now." we would be mindless drones who worship God out of necessity and the absence of any other option.

Are you a proxy? This a lot like what he tells me. If my loved ones were right in front of me I would take them for granted. I could become one of those "rapists" I mentioned above...but to them. I wouldn't want that. And since I don't wish to be "raped" I stay away from others. I am quite loyal to my "family" as we call them. Also, if my wife were here, I could come to dislike things about her. That's not right so by keeping her out of sight, but IN mind, she's always quite perfect and who would dare wander from such a love as that? Not I. Not from the perfect love I can only truly have in my own mind. Only a fool would risk such an arrangement.

 

No. To have my family around mean they might actually force their will upon me. I would do things for them out of necessity and not from my heart. As it is now I pay my proxy and attend meetings where we all talk about our families. That's truly honoring my relationship with them until one day they come to be with me or I leave to be with them. Probably the latter but only when I become really, really, old. I think that's best. Or maybe if I have to go earlier if, say, I have an accident or something but otherwise I think waiting until the last possible moment to be together is best all around. I'll think about them though...when time allows of course (they understand I get quite busy).

 

It is VERY VERY difficult to seek God despite the easier route of becoming a God-hating atheist.

This is obviously a personal opinion, but I think most of you will find it is very true. Life without those troubling questions about God? Life without any accountability to God, only that to yourself and your family? Life without church and those sinners who like to pretend they are Christians?? (even though even Christians ARE sinners). Yes, it is a difficult road to God, especially if you have had awful experiences in the church. However, I believe that the church is not necessarily always God. More often than not, it is a faulty group of people who are so full of themselves and morals and rules that they hurt newcomers and "outcasts."

But that's not Jesus, folks. The church can very often be everything BUT Jesus.

Ok, I've gone off on a major tangent here. Sorry.

What's all this about? You do seem off on a major tangent.

 

No. Wait. I get it. The church is everything BUT jesus. And your point is that is god was to actually send proof then it would be like forcing himself on us so therefore the church should get rid of jesus since it's like trying to PROVE god and so CHURCH is sort of like RAPING people EMOTIONALLY. Bravo my new friend! I couldn't have said it any better if I had crammed those words in your mouth myself.

 

Back to the main point: Complete proof of God would throw true love out the window.

And I totally agree with your logic! Huzzah!

 

By the way, I've noticed that ex-Christians and atheists and such love to respond with horribly insulting, self-demeaning comments. If you have intelligence and something to say, post something intelligent. If you are simply a reactive Christian-hater, please resist your impulse to blow up.

Well, never you worry. I'll take you under my protective wing as it were because as far as I'm concerned you and I have never met, and as such, that is a sign of true love on your part. Sure, you've violated me just a little by revealing yourself in this virtual way but I see the computer as a form of proxy. I will give it a little PayPal or something later to appease it. For all I know you are god here to save us all...or maybe I am? I think I just freaked myself out a little.

 

I would love to hear thoughts on this.

Well, neither you nor I are god since we'd already know everyone's thoughts. Oh well. We still have our true love.

 

mwc

[Ouroboros]

Asheline,

 

Words, words, words.

 

Love is proven in action.

 

Existence is proven in action.

 

Show me your God through acts by him instead of just words.

 

I know people that needs healing. People on this site needs healing and we have people here that have hateful families. Ask your God (supposedly creator of the universe) to fix it, and when it's fixed, you have a better position to use your words.

[Japedo]

So everyone is constantly screaming for proof.

Let me pose this thought:

 

The Christian God loves His children unconditionally and fully. True love cannot be imposed or forced on the receiver.

So if we had absolute 100% proof of God and complete un-knockable evidence:

 

God would be forcing Himself on us, therefore it would not be true love.

 

(please do not bring thoughts on "God obviously doesn't have true love because He sends people to Hell." Post those thoughts elsewhere, please.)

 

WTF? Why on earth not? Hell is the main motivator for the belief. If you can't defend your gods damnation then don't come here thumping your chest expecting a sincere discussion about love. You Christians are the biggest cherry pickers ever. Anything you can't defend you set up as untouchable in the discussion. What makes you think you get to set the ground rules here? Please post your thoughts elsewhere if you can not defend indefensible actions by the god you claim is full of true love ™.

 

I find it quite hysterical you come to ex-c on your high-horse and then look down your nose and dismiss anything you can't defend as "off topic".. How convenient for you. If you're a parent and you can see not killing your child but putting immeasurable torment til the end of time as an act of love because they doubt what you say, or disagree with you, well then you have the same abusive mindset as the god you claim to follow.

 

 

 

 

It is VERY VERY difficult to seek God despite the easier route of becoming a God-hating atheist.

 

Another dumbass repeating bullshit mantra from the pulpit. Atheists don't hate god. No more then you "hate" Zeus or you "Hate" Santa, the easter bunny or Mohammed. This is the most repeated and wrong statement by xtian cult followers. I perhaps hate dogma, ignorance, intolerance and other mind controlling ideology's, but I don't hate their imaginary friends.

 

 

 

 

By the way, I've noticed that ex-Christians and atheists and such love to respond with horribly insulting, self-demeaning comments. If you have intelligence and something to say, post something intelligent. If you are simply a reactive Christian-hater, please resist your impulse to blow up.

 

 

[Neon Genesis]

Going by your logic, when Jesus returns and proves his existence to us in the Second Coming, won't Jesus be taking our free will away to believe in him? Won't he then be forcing us to worship him? Would Jesus' Second Coming then be true love? So whether God proves his existence to us now or in the Second Coming, either way by your logic, he is still eventually going to take away our free will from us, thus by your logic God can never be truly loving. And Asheline, if you really believe that God proving his existence to us takes away our free will to choose to believe, then why are you here trying to force us to believe in your God? By your logic, aren't you taking away our free will by trying to re-convert us back to Christianity? P.S. This site is called ex-Christian.net, we've kind of already heard all of your "proof" arguments only about a million times in our lives.

[Hineni]

I've really not much to add in response, you've all done wonderfully...but to all my fellow ex's "YE ARE GODS"....

I love u...**gettin' a bit weepy..sniff,sniff**

 

Asheline:"(please do not bring thoughts on "God obviously doesn't have true love because He sends people to Hell." Post those thoughts elsewhere, please.)"

 

Damn hell you say! You come to our house and tell us we can't "bring thoughts"? Like tellin' me I can't be naked in the bath.

 

There is obviously a correlation between YOUR "loving" god and it's "love" for sending the unchosen to HELL!

 

Good day!

[Robbobrob]

If that is true love, we are all in trouble. It sounds more like romanticized love of what you fantasize someone to be like, and are usually disapointed when the real person shows up, with all his or her flaws and imperfections.

 

I cannot love imaginary objects, or imagined idealized versions of real objects.

 

True love means loving someone despite their imperfections. I know you do not want to hear this, but the doctrine of Hell runs counter to the concept of True Love. Why would a god care what we act out here, for would it not be just a mask we wear, and not our true self (our soul). I liken it to a mother not caring whether her child played the cop or the robber, as long as he or she came home for supper when called.

 

I hope you take the time to understand where the people on this board are coming from. Understanding is more important than truth.

[Ouroboros]

By the way, I've noticed that ex-Christians and atheists and such love to respond with horribly insulting, self-demeaning comments. If you have intelligence and something to say, post something intelligent. If you are simply a reactive Christian-hater, please resist your impulse to blow up.

I would, if you could state or ask anything intelligent first.

 

My dog loves me. All three of my dogs love me, and they show perfect love. They are the trinity of God. Is that any less intelligent than your conjectures?

[GraphicsGuy]

Well, I will add my voice to the crowd because, Asheline, you need to realize that all of your "reasoning" is nothing more that a clashing of cymbals in here. We know what you're thinking when you xians make opening posts like this. You think, "Aha! God's given me some words to say! I'll bet these unbelievers can't rebutt THIS argument! This'll get 'em! Thank you Jesus for leading me here to save even one!"

 

Been there. Done that.

 

It is VERY VERY difficult to seek God despite the easier route of becoming a God-hating atheist.

 

Hmmm...not accurate really. Yes, it is difficult to seek God (not difficult to become a Xian though...the two are not conclusively equal), but becoming an athiest is not an easier path. God-hating is not correct either. Organized religion-hating...that might work in some cases. Stereo-types really don't work on anyone, you know...except on Xians maybe. The religion is designed to develop clones and discourage free-thought.

 

Life without church and those sinners who like to pretend they are Christians?? (even though even Christians ARE sinners). Yes, it is a difficult road to God, especially if you have had awful experiences in the church. However, I believe that the church is not necessarily always God. More often than not, it is a faulty group of people who are so full of themselves and morals and rules that they hurt newcomers and "outcasts."

But that's not Jesus, folks. The church can very often be everything BUT Jesus.

 

Sounds like you've been burned and are trying to blaze your own trail. Maybe we're just doing the same thing. How do you know? You come in here and probably haven't read anyone's story. Xians tend not to bother doing that. Screw empathy! Just tell us heathens The Truth™ and we'll reconvert immediately!

 

I say once again to the Xians who assume to know the answers yet never read our stories, FUCK YOU!

 

This is obviously a personal opinion, but I think most of you will find it is very true. Life without those troubling questions about God? Life without any accountability to God, only that to yourself and your family?

 

Be accountable to someone who I can't see, hear, touch, smell? Someone that there is NO proof of? Okay, I don't know about you, but I tried that for 18 years and it really, really messed me up. All the talking to him in my head and imagining his responses really started damaging my mental faculties after a while.

 

Back to the main point: Complete proof of God would throw true love out the window.

 

So what is "true love" then? If proof of God throws love out the window, yet God is love...???

 

By the way, I've noticed that ex-Christians and atheists and such love to respond with horribly insulting, self-demeaning comments. If you have intelligence and something to say, post something intelligent. If you are simply a reactive Christian-hater, please resist your impulse to blow up.

 

"By the way, I've noticed that Christians love to respond with horribly insulting, self-demeaning comments. If you have intelligence and something to say, post something intelligent. If you are simply a reactive ex-Christian/atheist/any-religion-but-your-own-hater, please resist your impulse to spout your typical assumptive bullshit!"

 

There you go. Fixed your sentence for you.

[SWIM]

So everyone is constantly screaming for proof.

Let me pose this thought:

 

First off, it is on the asserter to provide proof, not the other way around. In other words, if I told you that I know two headed unicorns exisit it does NOT become YOUR responsibility to prove they don't, it is MY responsibility to prove they DO. Hey that's just how it works.

 

The Christian God loves His children unconditionally and fully. True love cannot be imposed or forced on the receiver.

So if we had absolute 100% proof of God and complete un-knockable evidence:

 

God would be forcing Himself on us, therefore it would not be true love.

 

(please do not bring thoughts on "God obviously doesn't have true love because He sends people to Hell." Post those thoughts elsewhere, please.)

 

A key component of love is selflessness and offering the choice to others of loving. It is actually a very vulnerable place to be in. If God were saying "Here I am. Look. I'm right here. Here's all the evidence you need, all the proof, everything! Believe in me right now." we would be mindless drones who worship God out of necessity and the absence of any other option.

 

If you *know* god exists, it does not mean you will instantly love him. Seeing is believing yes, but seeing does not mean you *have* to love either. I know my sister exists, but with so much bad blood, It is difficult to say I *love* her.

 

Proof of god, would *help* faith, because then you could choose to love or not love, the question "is he real?" gets replaced with questions about caracter.

 

Why do you fear hell talk? Do you not think hell doctrines are an issue? How can you ignore unjustness?

 

It is VERY VERY difficult to seek God despite the easier route of becoming a God-hating atheist.

 

News Flash! Atheists do NOT hate god. You would first have to actually believe in him to hate him. I don't hate "the force" from star wars, because I don't believe it exists.

 

This is obviously a personal opinion, but I think most of you will find it is very true. Life without those troubling questions about God? Life without any accountability to God, only that to yourself and your family? Life without church and those sinners who like to pretend they are Christians?? (even though even Christians ARE sinners). Yes, it is a difficult road to God, especially if you have had awful experiences in the church. However, I believe that the church is not necessarily always God. More often than not, it is a faulty group of people who are so full of themselves and morals and rules that they hurt newcomers and "outcasts."

But that's not Jesus, folks. The church can very often be everything BUT Jesus.

Ok, I've gone off on a major tangent here. Sorry.

 

Only someone with truely deplorable morals *needs* theology to be moral. We are accountable, just like you are. We are accountable because we *care* about others, as well as ourselves. I suggest it is a better form of morality. Why? Because as an atheist, you are not *praying* to help someone, you (gasp) actually *try* to help them. Many deists will pray, and *think* they *helped* thus giving them a clear conscious, when actually you did *nothing* at all to help. Which is more moral?

 

Back to the main point: Complete proof of God would throw true love out the window.

 

By the way, I've noticed that ex-Christians and atheists and such love to respond with horribly insulting, self-demeaning comments. If you have intelligence and something to say, post something intelligent. If you are simply a reactive Christian-hater, please resist your impulse to blow up.

 

I would love to hear thoughts on this.

 

Complete proof of god would cause such widespread worship it would make your head spin. All religions would unit, fear of death would be gone, it would be the best thing that ever happened to the world and I *think* you should know this. I *know* YOU exist, because you posted, that does *NOT* mean I love you, you would have to earn that love and respect. Proof does not go hand in hand with love.

 

BTW you come to an ex-christian board *and* post in the Lion's Den. I did not insult you *this* time, but it is my option and not yours. You don't walk into a den of lions and say, "good kitty, play nice, please don't eat me, just purr and let me pet you some."

 

Understand?

[xandermac]

Hell Yes to what everyone else said. Maybe you don't want us talking about your god sending people to hell because your ashamed of it. I would be if I believed in a god. I don't hate something I don't believe in. I don't hate christians. I do hate the way christianity runs my country and my public schools and says whether my county can sell alcohol or my state can have the lottery or whether i can buy certain things on your stupid sabbath. Freewill bullshit.

[Taphophilia]

(please do not bring thoughts on "God obviously doesn't have true love because He sends people to Hell." Post those thoughts elsewhere, please.)

 

I would guess the reason you gave us this condition is you cannot even begin to answer it.

 

It is VERY VERY difficult to seek God despite the easier route of becoming a God-hating atheist.

 

First of all, this is not atheist.net, it's ex-Christian.net. Not everyone here is an atheist. Second, how can you hate something that you do not believe exists. Do you hate Santa for not bringing you the present you asked for as a child? As an athiest, I hate god as much as I do unicorns.

 

However, I believe that the church is not necessarily always God. More often than not, it is a faulty group of people who are so full of themselves and morals and rules that they hurt newcomers and "outcasts."

But that's not Jesus, folks. The church can very often be everything BUT Jesus.

 

 

It's the old, "It's not Jesus, it's his followers" argument. Jesus is the head and the Church is the body. If someone slaps you across the face, do you blame the hand saying it's not the heads fault?

 

Back to the main point: Complete proof of God would throw true love out the window.

 

This is a new one. So, if you love someone and desire for them to love you in return, it means that you don't even have to provide them with proof that you exist?

 

A question for you, why do you equate God with the Christian concept of God?

[sojourner]

God would be forcing Himself on us, therefore it would not be true love.

 

(please do not bring thoughts on "God obviously doesn't have true love because He sends people to Hell." Post those thoughts elsewhere, please.)

 

How convenient as one just casts aside the whole eternal torment belief then asks folks to believe God is love?

 

How can you divorce the threat of eternal torment out of your convo if you believe in it and have a shred of honesty?

 

If you believe in eternal torment your God is a monster, simple as that

 

sojourner

[xandermac]

God would be forcing Himself on us, therefore it would not be true love.

 

(please do not bring thoughts on "God obviously doesn't have true love because He sends people to Hell." Post those thoughts elsewhere, please.)

 

How convenient as one just casts aside the whole eternal torment belief then asks folks to believe God is love?

 

How can you divorce the threat of eternal torment out of your convo if you believe in it and have a shred of honesty?

 

If you believe in eternal torment your God is a monster, simple as that

 

sojourner

 

 

 

I didn't trust you at first but I think I might like you.

[♦ nivek ♦]

So everyone is constantly screaming for proof.

 

Prove you are female. Prove you are something more than a "bot" here to provide you are here for more than raising hell with the ebbile afeeeeeists. Show me you nekkid body! I'm SCREAMING AT YOU NOW!!!!!! Show me PROOF you are really named ASHELINE!!!!!!

 

PROOF! PROOF PROOF! If you lubba me PROVE IT!!!!

 

Now that bullshit is outa my system, you are free to send nekkid shots, but please not of Hasslehoff. Buddy did last week, and my mind still has a hole in grey matter from that..

 

 

Let me pose this thought:

 

Nahhhhh. Lets not. Whenever a sectarian comes into Dave's House with that supposition, it ALWAYS means "Let me preach to you whilst we remain silent and be beat around ears with TRVTH!

 

No forkin' thank you.

 

The Christian God loves His children unconditionally and fully. True love cannot be imposed or forced on the receiver.

So if we had absolute 100% proof of God and complete un-knockable evidence:

 

So ya'll say. Dominonist/Calvinists say otherwise (Look them 'um up, they are the current heart of the War, err, Republican Party and with bush2 in ofice a major policy making body). Far too much evidence biblically says that the sand diety from prior to the bronze age hates everybody and will kill those whom he chooses. Check yer old testament out and read the whole buncha bi-bull there.

 

God would be forcing Himself on us, therefore it would not be true love.

 

It aint'a god that skeers me, but all his bibull filled godzoids ready to skull fuck anyone who doesn't believe as they do.

Kids raped from time they are old enough to be dropped off in sunday skulle and their little minds filled with mush.

 

God doesn't need to show up, there are generations of folks programmed to do what their masters tell them, all in god's name.

 

(please do not bring thoughts on "God obviously doesn't have true love because He sends people to Hell." Post those thoughts elsewhere, please.)

 

OK, have a bananna and a cup of grape juice on Kirk.

 

A key component of love is selflessness and offering the choice to others of loving. It is actually a very vulnerable place to be in. If God were saying "Here I am. Look. I'm right here. Here's all the evidence you need, all the proof, everything! Believe in me right now." we would be mindless drones who worship God out of necessity and the absence of any other option.

 

Got the mindless drones part quite right. Anything prior is feel_good_fluffy_bunny_foofoo_bullshit.

 

It is VERY VERY difficult to seek God despite the easier route of becoming a God-hating atheist.

This is obviously a personal opinion, but I think most of you will find it is very true. Life without those troubling questions about God? Life without any accountability to God, only that to yourself and your family? Life without church and those sinners who like to pretend they are Christians?? (even though even Christians ARE sinners). Yes, it is a difficult road to God, especially if you have had awful experiences in the church. However, I believe that the church is not necessarily always God. More often than not, it is a faulty group of people who are so full of themselves and morals and rules that they hurt newcomers and "outcasts."

But that's not Jesus, folks. The church can very often be everything BUT Jesus.

Ok, I've gone off on a major tangent here. Sorry.

 

 

If yer 'god" is so right and worthy, why the fucking fuck is it so hard to find this useless son of a bitch? When we prayed, we were doing so to empty skies, He was on back nine. When we were in agony, Jebus wasn't at the Help Desk. When we were destitute and poor, where was he to help us back to work, gainful employment, doing things to encourage other believers?

 

No fucking where. It, your choice of Gods exists as vaporware, ethergas, mindcrimes.

 

Back to the main point: Complete proof of God would throw true love out the window.

 

I'm married to a godless gal, we have a godless partner, and have raised a godless child with whom all who meet him complement us on his manners, rightness and politeness. Invisible spook had nothing to do with the humanity my son expresses to those around him.

That you postulate I cannot *love him w/o god* is as useless and garbage bullshit as I've EVER read on these Boards.

 

Up yers.

 

By the way, I've noticed that ex-Christians and atheists and such love to respond with horribly insulting, self-demeaning comments. If you have intelligence and something to say, post something intelligent. If you are simply a reactive Christian-hater, please resist your impulse to blow up.

 

Gee no shit? Ever notice that the sectarians feel as tho by some unseen unction owned by the majik sky Daddy they own the rights to posting horribly insulting, self demeaning comments?

 

You fail the Test Ash, you are still another in a line of folks with the "Same Shit, Different Day" religiousness that drops on here at ExC with a flavor of the day, expecting us to like dogshit flavored ice cream.

 

I would love to hear thoughts on this.

 

You own no thoughts that you've not been fed by a careful regurgitation of the same simple "feel good, is good" religious studies. You ARE the Taliborne shock troop, trying to compel folks to try on a nice jebus salad while your *betters* and *elders* seek ways to get the gut hooks back into the ebbile affffeeeeeeeists.

 

Appreciate your kind offer, but gonna suspect that you'll be short lived here when folks start talking the more serious things of theology and history which your teachers failed to instruct you in.

 

For now.. I am daFatman, Keeper of Webmaster's Gate, Washer of glasses, scrubber of floors. And not waiting for your puny god.

 

kFL

[Grandpa Harley]

One the subject of Kirk... I bet my willy is shaped just right to fit up his butt... I wonder if that means I was designed to fuck him up the ass? :innocent smile:

 

BTW God's shit bomber hasn't been back since nearly 4am my time... I think they came, they spouted shit like a man with dysentery, and left the building...