(my First Thread)a Beautiful Herecy

[Not_Scarevangelist]

My Bulgarian version has a slight difference about this verse.

Are you a troll?

 

Which one of you guys is behind this?

 

You could be right. We'll see how this plays out.

 

Not_Scary, if you're a troll or if you're a poser and a previous member here and just playing around, do understand we do not like that kind of behavior and can result in a temporary ban.

 

No, I have never had an account here. And I don't know who Chibby is. And I don't care. You should firstly check the IPs and ... I hope your system collects some info about me, right?

[Ouroboros]

No, I have never had an account here. And I don't know who Chibby is. And I don't care. You should firstly check the IPs and ... I hope your system collects some info about me, right?

We do, but I'm just a low level mod and I don't have the tracking system. Higher level mods do, and we'll see what they say.

[SWIM]

You are wrong. I read a lot of testimonies here...

Let's start with... hmmmmm...

1. Unanswered prayers.

There could be reasons for that. See Jacob

2. Hell

I explained it very well about universalism, there are articles about eternity, aion, aionios and so on...

 

Wow! I am impressed! You solved ALL the people's problems writing testimonies for all time here in just one post!

 

Man, I truly am impressed!

[gusdafa]

No, I have never had an account here. And I don't know who Chibby is. And I don't care. You should firstly check the IPs and ... I hope your system collects some info about me, right?

I didn't infer anything with what I quoted before, it's just that it was odd and it sounded like a joke (dont mean offense to Bulgarians out there).

 

Also, IPs don't really tell anything specific about a user nowadays.

[Ouroboros]

You are wrong. I read a lot of testimonies here...

Let's start with... hmmmmm...

1. Unanswered prayers.

There could be reasons for that. See Jacob

And there's another answer for unanswered prayers: no one at the other end of the phone.

 

It's like when you're talking to someone on some imaginary telephone line, and you're hoping the "person" on the other side hears you and can understand you, but you never hear anything or anything send in the mail.

 

Some day you get into a need where you want the help from this other powerful "person" but nothing happens.

 

Then you get into the next situation, and the same results.

 

And it happens again, and again, and again, and again, and ... some 100 to 1000 times, then you learn that when you do something and get an outcome you didn't want, only a fool try to do the same thing again and expect a different outcome. And that's what prayer is.

 

Do you know they have done a statistical study on prayer and miracles, and they tested a very large group, and the results were no different than the reference group that had no prayers. There are no miracles... ever. Only your imagination that something that actually have a natural explanation is considered by you as a miracle, only because you want it to be. Those kinds of miracles happens to us all, and all the time, with or without prayer, so prayer is inefficient to make nature do what nature does.

 

2. Hell

I explained it very well about universalism, there are articles about eternity, aion, aionios and so on...

Right. Hell is a common reason to lose your faith. Because in 99% of the cases, it just doesn't make sense. Do be punished for eternity only because you didn't believe in Santa Claus.

[Not_Scarevangelist]

No, I think it's a matter of faith. You can't be an ex christian if you have enough fight. Call me a narrow thinker, a moron, or whatever you want, this is how I see things.

 

Yes, there are some serious objections to christianity. For example, I read about a 12 year old girl who was afraid of hell. Yes, I think it's the most serious objection to Christianity. But there are a lot of false teachings. And this could be one of them.

[Ouroboros]

OK, who created the big bang? What do you think? The particles appeared from a great soup-like nonexistent fluid?

Ok, I can play, who created God?

 

After all, the universe is way to complex to have been created by pure chance, it must have been created by someone really complex... like God.. but wait, if God is way to complex to just exist by pure chance, then he must have been created by a even more complex Super-God... which means that...

 

Usually a house, a being, a plant and laws of nature come from smaller components. The smaller build and make up the larger. God must be smaller than the Universe for the formula to work.

 

If God can exist outside time, then the hot state of energy (pre-big-bang-singularity) could have existed outside of time.

 

If God can exist for eternity, then the singularity could have existed for eternity.

 

If God don't need a creator, then the singularity don't need a creator.

 

And so on...

 

The only reason you can't believe in nature and reality, is because you have decided to believe in fantasy.

[Not_Scarevangelist]

SanHolo: Wait a minute... If we view God as all powerful he knows what you want before you pray. So... he might want to test your faith by not answering you.

About this survey, I never knew about that. But I've heard about prayers and miracles in Bulgaria, the pastor said that his father was healed of a very serious form of cancer. And he looks like a honest person.

[SWIM]

Do you know they have done a statistical study on prayer and miracles, and they tested a very large group, and the results were no different than the reference group that had no prayers. There are no miracles... ever. Only your imagination that something that actually have a natural explanation is considered by you as a miracle, only because you want it to be. Those kinds of miracles happens to us all, and all the time, with or without prayer, so prayer is inefficient to make nature do what nature does.

 

That's a *very* good point hans. Been a while, but I read those studies too.

 

Also, it's interesting to point out, that lot's of people "claim" faith healed them, but they had illnesses that could not be "seen". There has never been a single case of an amputee being healed ever. That's an eye-opening fact just by itself.

[Ouroboros]

No, I think it's a matter of faith. You can't be an ex christian if you have enough fight. Call me a narrow thinker, a moron, or whatever you want, this is how I see things.

I believed for 30 years. I went on mission trips. I went to Bible school. I was evangelizing downtown once week for a year. I carried a Bible with me everywhere I went. I was hardcore.

 

But my faith was faltering and fading away. I read the Bible. I went to Church. And I prayed, but my doubts got stronger. I couldn't see any evidence of a God in my life, in my heart, in my mind, in my family, in life, in the world, in the universe or anywhere else. Things started to fall apart, and I asked God to fix it, but nothing happened, my doubts only got stronger... and I'm still waiting for "belief" to come back, but it hasn't. But during the time I've been waiting I have been active in trying to understand and see if there's any evidence of a God, but I can't find any. Since I strongly doubt there is a God, I don't have any faith. Since I have no faith, I need evidence to prove me wrong. And you have your chance to prove it, but I doubt that only words can prove the existence of something you can't test, see, hear, touch or talk to.

 

And yes. You are narrow thinker and simple minded. That will lead you to false conclusions and wrong interpretations of the Bible and you might go to Hell one day, just like Jesus said that some would. What did he say? "You called me Lord and you did miracles in my name, but I don't know you." Are you one of them?

[Not_Scarevangelist]

OK, who created the big bang? What do you think? The particles appeared from a great soup-like nonexistent fluid?

If God can exist outside time, then the hot state of energy (pre-big-bang-singularity) could have existed outside of time.

 

If God can exist for eternity, then the singularity could have existed for eternity.

 

If God don't need a creator, then the singularity don't need a creator.

 

And so on...

 

The only reason you can't believe in nature and reality, is because you have decided to believe in fantasy.

 

There's a flaw in this point of view. Outside we may not talk about energy, because everything should differ. I can't explain it well, but maybe even E=mc^2 may not work. There may be another type of organisation.

[Not_Scarevangelist]

Do you know they have done a statistical study on prayer and miracles, and they tested a very large group, and the results were no different than the reference group that had no prayers. There are no miracles... ever. Only your imagination that something that actually have a natural explanation is considered by you as a miracle, only because you want it to be. Those kinds of miracles happens to us all, and all the time, with or without prayer, so prayer is inefficient to make nature do what nature does.

 

That's a *very* good point hans. Been a while, but I read those studies too.

 

Also, it's interesting to point out, that lot's of people "claim" faith healed them, but they had illnesses that could not be "seen". There has never been a single case of an amputee being healed ever. That's an eye-opening fact just by itself.

 

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/w...l_amputees.html - check this

[Ouroboros]

SanHolo: Wait a minute... If we view God as all powerful he knows what you want before you pray. So... he might want to test your faith by not answering you.

This means I love my family more than God.

 

What I want was not for me, but for someone that I love very much. My son who loved climbing trees, can not do so anymore, because God refused to protect him and refused to heal him. We've had 11 years of trial. That outbeats Job many times over.

 

I did not want my family or my kids to get hurt, and we prayed for protection before the trip 11 years ago. We believed God would protect us. The accident could have been avoided by a simple word from God, a simple hint, or anything small to change it. I know that some things could have been just one second later or earlier and my son would be able to walk still today. It didn't take God much to prevent this, but he decided (if he exists) to try my son and my family. We went throug Hell already, and we're still somewhat there. So your fantasy Hell doesn't really scare me. I live in reality, and I'm sorry that imagination is more important to you than real life.

 

About this survey, I never knew about that. But I've heard about prayers and miracles in Bulgaria, the pastor said that his father was healed of a very serious form of cancer. And he looks like a honest person.

In one of the issues of New Scientists there was an article about how our bodies can heal cancer. They have found out that our body actually can, in some cases, make cancer recede. So there are natural explanations to things like that.

 

I met a mom, 25 years ago, that had a son who had cancer. He started on a vegetarian died, and got rid of the cancer. He and his mom were atheists... Glory to Salad and dark fruits and vegetables!

[Not_Scarevangelist]

No, I think it's a matter of faith. You can't be an ex christian if you have enough fight. Call me a narrow thinker, a moron, or whatever you want, this is how I see things.

I believed for 30 years. I went on mission trips. I went to Bible school. I was evangelizing downtown once week for a year. I carried a Bible with me everywhere I went. I was hardcore.

 

But my faith was faltering and fading away. I read the Bible. I went to Church. And I prayed, but my doubts got stronger. I couldn't see any evidence of a God in my life, in my heart, in my mind, in my family, in life, in the world, in the universe or anywhere else. Things started to fall apart, and I asked God to fix it, but nothing happened, my doubts only got stronger... and I'm still waiting for "belief" to come back, but it hasn't. But during the time I've been waiting I have been active in trying to understand and see if there's any evidence of a God, but I can't find any. Since I strongly doubt there is a God, I don't have any faith. Since I have no faith, I need evidence to prove me wrong. And you have your chance to prove it, but I doubt that only words can prove the existence of something you can't test, see, hear, touch or talk to.

 

And yes. You are narrow thinker and simple minded. That will lead you to false conclusions and wrong interpretations of the Bible and you might go to Hell one day, just like Jesus said that some would. What did he say? "You called me Lord and you did miracles in my name, but I don't know you." Are you one of them?

 

That's strange. When I pray I feel my faith goes stronger. And I really feel I'm being touchned by a loving God.

[Ouroboros]

OK, who created the big bang? What do you think? The particles appeared from a great soup-like nonexistent fluid?

If God can exist outside time, then the hot state of energy (pre-big-bang-singularity) could have existed outside of time.

 

If God can exist for eternity, then the singularity could have existed for eternity.

 

If God don't need a creator, then the singularity don't need a creator.

 

And so on...

 

The only reason you can't believe in nature and reality, is because you have decided to believe in fantasy.

 

There's a flaw in this point of view. Outside we may not talk about energy, because everything should differ. I can't explain it well, but maybe even E=mc^2 may not work. There may be another type of organisation.

What's the flaw?

 

The reason why they consider the singularity is because of math. It's mathematically consistent, but God is not.

 

So you're saying, infinite and "outside" of time and space is only possible for a "God" but not for a Universe? So in what kind of universe would heaven and hell be in, if a universe can not exist outside our universe? You are inconsistent in your beliefs here.

 

Have you heard about the multiverse ideas?

[Ouroboros]

That's strange. When I pray I feel my faith goes stronger. And I really feel I'm being touchned by a loving God.

It's all in your mind.

 

Positive thinking does work to strengthen your own faith. It's a emotional feedback. But if your faith is faltering and it get tested really, really hard, you will find that it doesn't help anymore, because it's not miraculous, but a natural feedback system in your brain. It evolved that way, because there are (or used to be) some benefits to survival in believing things that are not there, but only to a certain degree.

 

I know a guy, his wife got cancer, and the doctors told him that medicine could only do so much, but she would only survive if he would give her moral and emotional support. He did. She survived. They are atheists.

[crazy-tiger]

SanHolo: Wait a minute... If we view God as all powerful he knows what you want before you pray. So... he might want to test your faith by not answering you.

If you know anything about Han, you'd know that this method of testing his faith would be through inflicting pain and suffering on an innocent child. (not to mention the related pain of those around as they watch this child going through said pain and suffering...)

 

Congratulations on making your God out to be a callous bastard...

About this survey, I never knew about that. But I've heard about prayers and miracles in Bulgaria, the pastor said that his father was healed of a very serious form of cancer. And he looks like a honest person.

Oh please... you believe him because he looks like a honest person?

 

Is this guy honest-looking? Would you believe his claims of miracles?

[Not_Scarevangelist]

Have you heard about the multiverse ideas?

 

No, but I'd like to hear about them.

[SWIM]

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/w...l_amputees.html - check this

 

 

Total garbage.

[Not_Scarevangelist]

SanHolo: Wait a minute... If we view God as all powerful he knows what you want before you pray. So... he might want to test your faith by not answering you.

This means I love my family more than God.

 

What I want was not for me, but for someone that I love very much. My son who loved climbing trees, can not do so anymore, because God refused to protect him and refused to heal him. We've had 11 years of trial. That outbeats Job many times over.

 

I did not want my family or my kids to get hurt, and we prayed for protection before the trip 11 years ago. We believed God would protect us. The accident could have been avoided by a simple word from God, a simple hint, or anything small to change it. I know that some things could have been just one second later or earlier and my son would be able to walk still today. It didn't take God much to prevent this, but he decided (if he exists) to try my son and my family. We went throug Hell already, and we're still somewhat there. So your fantasy Hell doesn't really scare me. I live in reality, and I'm sorry that imagination is more important to you than real life.

 

About this survey, I never knew about that. But I've heard about prayers and miracles in Bulgaria, the pastor said that his father was healed of a very serious form of cancer. And he looks like a honest person.

In one of the issues of New Scientists there was an article about how our bodies can heal cancer. They have found out that our body actually can, in some cases, make cancer recede. So there are natural explanations to things like that.

 

I met a mom, 25 years ago, that had a son who had cancer. He started on a vegetarian died, and got rid of the cancer. He and his mom were atheists... Glory to Salad and dark fruits and vegetables!

 

That's really sad. Yet, I believe that God can do a miracle even now. And it will be great.

The plain truth I just can't live without faith. Maybe I'm weak. I would feel very sad if there are no miracles, no healings, no... God.

My story is more trivial. I went through depression, loss of girlfriend, alcoholism. Now I'm cured from that alcoholism and it's like a miracle to me. Yes, when I see my coleagues in the University drinking in the local bar (yes, there is a bar in my Uni), I say.. "Thanks God for healing me".

[Mythra]

Wait a minute... If we view God as all powerful he knows what you want before you pray. So... he might want to test your faith by not answering you.

 

Yes yes! I'm familiar with that particular textual variant!

 

In Codex Bezae it says:

 

"Verily verily, I say unto thee: whatsoever you ask in my name, I will do it. Except during those times in which I test thee. For I find great delight in fuckin witcha"

[Ouroboros]

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/w...l_amputees.html - check this

I gave an answer to this and the website timed out on me and I lost it.

 

Basically, I don't believe rumours.

 

There are pastors that claimed for years they were healed, but at their deathbed or after their death it was shown they had been hiding their illness for all those years.

 

My son can't walk because of broken spine and damaged spinal cords. I would believe again, if he got healed, because there's no way it could happen through natural means. And why do I say that? Because I know the situation and his medical history.

 

So I don't believe anymore, because someone else believes they got a miracle. I will believe if God proves to me that he can still do it for my family. It's not for me, but for my son. I love my son to death, but God loves him not. Prove me wrong.

[SWIM]

In that apologetic garbage website, the "amputee" healed is the one in the bible. There is ZERO evidence of this actually happening. Also, it says "you will cure the sick, raise the dead, do what I do and more" yet nobody at all heals amputees or raises the dead.

[Ouroboros]

That's really sad. Yet, I believe that God can do a miracle even now. And it will be great.

The plain truth I just can't live without faith. Maybe I'm weak. I would feel very sad if there are no miracles, no healings, no... God.

My story is more trivial. I went through depression, loss of girlfriend, alcoholism. Now I'm cured from that alcoholism and it's like a miracle to me. Yes, when I see my coleagues in the University drinking in the local bar (yes, there is a bar in my Uni), I say.. "Thanks God for healing me".

I can understand your sentiment. It's emotional, and I can tell you, I do not want to take your faith away, but you have to come to an understanding that belief is personal and some people do not believe and they have valid reasons to do so. If God does exist, and if God is good, then God is fair, and he would know why someone don't believe anymore and he would take that into consideration. Maybe my un-belief is valid and I won't be judged?

 

What do you mean by universalist by the way? Does it mean "universal christian" that only christians go to Heaven? or Universal in the sense that many unbelievers and believers of other faiths will also go to Heaven?

[Ouroboros]

Wait a minute... If we view God as all powerful he knows what you want before you pray. So... he might want to test your faith by not answering you.

 

Yes yes! I'm familiar with that particular textual variant!

 

In Codex Bezae it says:

 

"Verily verily, I say unto thee: whatsoever you ask in my name, I will do it. Except during those times in which I test thee. For I find great delight in fuckin witcha"

Very good point. The Bible is not clear about if you will get answer or not. It seems like Jesus had this delusion that God would always answer your prayers (or at least if you prayed hard enough).

 

It says "where two or three are gathered in my name, I'm with them" (or something like that). And we used to believe that. Jesus was in the car when it ran into the 1 ton steel-roll. Jesus got out of the car unscathed, but not my kids.