My Brother, The Preacher

[Emme]

There are a lot of things about xianity that I find funny, stupid and dangerous.

 

My brother is a preacher and he seems really happy and content. He is a loving,

humorous, compassionate person and i love him - except of course when it comes to god and the church,

here our opinions are of as different as night and day.

 

The problem is, I don't know if I should question his beliefs, because he IS his beliefs!

 

 

I don't want to force my opinion on him, because I hate when people do that, but I really

think that some of his beliefs that merge into politics are really, really offensive and discriminating.

 

Mostly, I just don't bother arguing, because I don't think he is willing to listen, but on the other hand,

my opinions are just as important as his, and I shouldn't have to stand back.

Ordinarily, we don't meet on neutral grounds, my entire family is xian and discussions take place

at home, so I feel like I'm in a position where noone would back me up.

 

How do you deal with your xian relatives?

 

Do you shut up or do you argue?

[Deva]

How do you deal with your xian relatives?

Do you shut up or do you argue?

 

My personal approach is to keep quiet. As you have observed with your brother -- they ARE their beliefs. My parents are in their 70s and they are not going to change. It took me probably 30 years to get out of fundamentalism. No other person influenced me. I did it myself and it was not easy.

 

I have told my parents I am not going to discuss religion with them (in a letter).

[no-one]

I'd go with the 'keep quiet' option too. My family are quite religious. They know I don't go to church but they don't know I'm an atheist and it would really upset them if they knew. So, I just keep quiet. You don't need to judge him on his beliefs, he's still your bro and you wouldn't want to mess things up. So when you talk to him just stick to safe neutral subjects if you can. I know it can be tough especially when politics gets involved, I'm a nightmare since I seem to be the only leftie in my family but if all else fails I know loads of good drinking games revolving around christian discussions. I invented quite a few, it makes xmas more bearable

[Vigile]

I dunno, I guess you just have to love them despite their flaws. My uncle, like your brother was a preacher. He was a very happy, caring, big guy with a huge cult of personality. He had vision and a real passion for life. He just passed away a couple of days ago.

 

The sad thing is, I talked to him on the phone about a month ago as I knew he was passing. It was great to talk to him as it had been years since I've seen him (I live out of the country). Even though it was great talking to him, the conversation was littered with BS about heaven, miracles, visions of angels and a future with god in some magic place in the sky. It was very uncomfortable to just sit there and nod my head and grunt my indifference to his wild and rich life of fantasy.

 

I promised to call him again the next week, but wasn't able to do it. I loved the guy, but sitting on the phone listening to fairy tales from a grown man for an hour is just more than my patience can handle such a short time later.

 

Fortunately the rest of my family are more sensitive and don't pile their beliefs on me. In fact, I talked to my mom yesterday to tell her how sorry I was about her losing her brother. It seemed like she started to say something about prayer or god's comfort, but she stopped herself and said something much more innocuous. I wouldn't have minded if she hadn't held back, and I've never said anything about her beliefs before to make her feel like she needed to control her language around me, but it was easy to see she did so soas not to make me uncomfortable.

 

In any case, your brother will probably never change. It's probably best to just stay on off-topic subjects with him where you have more neutral ground to cover.

[Emme]

In any case, your brother will probably never change. It's probably best to just stay on off-topic subjects with him where you have more neutral ground to cover.

 

You're probably right. then again, I've changed.

[SWIM]

They "might" change, they might not. Leaving a religion is a lot like thinking outside the box. Not many can really do this well, and it also takes courage.

 

I deal with xtian in-laws and relatives by basically leaving them alone. If I am really pressured then I will discuss it with them, but other then that, I leave them be.

[Ouroboros]

A person can change, but it has to come from inside. It has to be their doing. A process where they have come to the only conclusion they can come to.

 

In regards to how open your disagreement with your brother is, it depends on you and your brother. If he's willing to have casual and friendly discussions, just try to keep your cool and never go too far and push him beyond what he's willing to go. It's very emotional, since religions is, just like you say, how they identify themselves.

[Beowulf]

I've learned to keep quiet. You can't swing a dead cat in my family without hitting a preacher. I have seven brothers and sisters, which, if also you count spouses and children, includes three Methodist ministers and three Baptist ministers. My father was once a Pentecostal Holiness preacher, but is now Methodist.

[Emme]

You can't swing a dead cat in my family without hitting a preacher.

 

ahahha!

[Neon Genesis]

My family still doesn't know I don't believe anymore, and the discussion of religion almost always comes up when we go visit relatives, so I just leave the room and go read a good book until they're done talking about it. I find that to be much more entertaining, personally. After all, they say there are three things you should never discuss with people; religion, politics, and the Great Pumpkin.

[Llwellyn]

My brother-in-law and sister are Bible translators (missionaries) in one West African country. My parents are also Bible Translators in a Central African country. I am honest with them about my feelings and my new point of view. I am grateful that they don't react in a negative way. They tend to listen politely without trying to argue or convince me. Of course, I am also polite and don't speak too cruelly about the things that they believe and teach. For example, I don't tell them that Bible translators are like people irresponsibly copying out chain letters.

 

(By the way -- after that ex-pentecostal killed a bunch of people in Denver, I'm getting a little nervous about my signature. Do you think I should change it? Please don't call the FBI on me -- I'm not a threat!)

[GraphicsGuy]

I think I would argue if I have to. Both of my parents are fairly liberal Xians now. I believe most of my aunts and uncles are as well.

 

I just don't understand the more liberal viewpoint and I have asked my mother why she bothers to believe at all. She kind of hemmed and hawed and I didn't really understand her answer...???

[Ouroboros]

You can't swing a dead cat in my family without hitting a preacher.

So the followup question would be how many dead preachers you have to swing around to hit a cat?

[Deva]

I just don't understand the more liberal viewpoint and I have asked my mother why she bothers to believe at all. She kind of hemmed and hawed and I didn't really understand her answer...???

 

Graphicsguy, you aren't the only one that doesn't understand it. I tried to do it for 5 years and STILL don't get it. Now I am not sure I even want to.

[Beowulf]

You can't swing a dead cat in my family without hitting a preacher.

So the followup question would be how many dead preachers you have to swing around to hit a cat?

 

Counting grandparents, uncles, and various cousins, probably close to twenty. Of course, I'd have to dig them up first.

[GraphicsGuy]

Graphicsguy, you aren't the only one that doesn't understand it. I tried to do it for 5 years and STILL don't get it. Now I am not sure I even want to.

 

I'm spending Xmas with my parents. I'm certain it's going to come up. It isn't bad with them...we don't argue, we actually do discuss. I'm mildly worried about some of the other people I may run into while I'm there though...

[♦ nivek ♦]

Ms emme...

 

My younger brother? I'd not piss on his face if his teeth were on fire...

Went all fundy, got "christed up" and wants to, or is going to some kind of preacher's schooling.

 

Long story, but he managed to offend my wife, piss me off, and estrange us all with some unguarded wonderfully not-so-christian problem making...

 

Rest of my family is nominally either charismatic, evangelical or of the jewish religious persuasion.

 

I and family live on west coast of uS, the rest for most part live on east.

 

Like it that way, lest I have to kill a lotta cats to swing there way..

 

We don't "get together" often...

 

Fuck'um for the most part.

 

kL

[Amethyst]

My personal approach is just to keep quiet also. Some members of my family are very religious and it wouldn't do any good to argue with them. In fact, it would probably do more harm than good.

[Purple]

We have a kind of big family to do on xmas. They do it on Easter adn Thanksgiving too. My DH, and family have never done thanksgiving, and the immidiate family LOVE this.

 

To answer your question directly I would not, in your situation bring it up. They won't get it, they may be kind, it probably wouldn't be a fight, or maybe it would I don't know your family. I just can't see any good coming from it. I'm lucky in although my family is all xian, they don't talk about it a lot it's kind of an unwritten rule, there is a before meal prayer, that ends with "In Jesus name" and that's it. You see they're all xian, they are just not all the same kind of xian. Episcopalian, Lutherans, 7th day adventist, and a sundry of non- denoms. Oh my oldest brother is an atheist, and will soon be marrying a buddahist, this should be interesting. Yeah, um we just don't talk about it.

[dr_funkenstein]

My dad was the pastor of the church I grew up in. He's not a pastor anymore but still a churchgoer and firm believer.

 

We sometimes go at it hammer and tongs in arguments - but we have the kind of relationship where that's ok. We each love the other very much, and he knows that my desire to rid him of his faith comes from a good place.

 

I'm a bit of an argumentative cunt at the best of times though, and because I believe very strongly that I'm right I'll have no problem whatsoever challenging the faith of anyone who crosses my path. If they are stupid enough to witness to me, well they'll know soon enough that they picked the wrong bloke to try and infect with their mind virus on that day, let me tell you.

 

I look at xianity as a memeplex that if left unchallenged will continue to infect more and more people. Once someone is infected by it, ridding them of the mind-virus is unlikely in the extreme, but if I can in some small way challenge that person's beliefs then I know I'm doing my part in a movement that will one day - not in my lifetime, but one day - see xianity relegated to the history books.

[R. S. Martin]

I've cut ties with my biological relatives so they don't count. With other people I don't discuss religion unless it comes up. I tend to agree and be noncommital so far as I can without compromising personal integrity. The type of relationship plays hugely into the picture. For example, last night I went to a Winter Solstice Event.

 

I told my landlady that I was going out and that someone would be picking me up, just so she would know in case someone rang the doorbell for me. We use the same front door. Well, she had no business asking where I was going but she did. She asked if I was going to a Christmas party. I said yes. I figured that would be Christian for it. I didn't want to discuss religion. I have not come out to her. I don't know if she has heard from others about my lack of beliefs or not. Close neighbours (who are also mutual friends) know. They may or may not have told her.

 

She may or may not know that this particular question was a tricky one. I don't think she would have known, but we never discuss religion so I don't know. Like I said, it depends on the relationship. This particular relationship is very important in that I want to keep on living here and she wants to keep me here. Keeping the peace is of top priority for both of us. I found with my relatives and businesses from a wide range of denominations that in this area conservative religion has the power to slice relationships right down through the middle. I can't risk that with my landlady. It's best not to discuss religion.

 

Then there is my supervisor for the Theology Thesis Paper. He's very open-minded and the school is receptive of all belief systems, so I came out to him right away just so we both know where we're at. Besides, I had to tell someone and I felt comfortable with him. It turned out to be a bit more tricky than I anticipated but I think we worked through the issues.

 

For a relationship where I had no stakes whatsoever, there was the stranger on the bus or the JWs at my door. In more than one case, people would try to evangelize me but I had so many questions and/or points of view that in the end they shut up or left. I think their problem was that I was so dead serious and genuine there was no way they could face me down.

 

It's funny but when it comes to power struggles I try not to over-power people. I try to be fair and let them have an out. But almost without exception, they surrender when I'm down to my second or third last option. Sometimes when I ask them a day or two later why they didn't take that approach they act embarrassed and say they never thought of that.

 

Since they act so embarrassed I let it go. I guess this would be mostly with family. As stated, I've cut ties.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

When I first broke the news to my parents that I no longer believed, we had tremendous fights. My sister would occasionally make snide comments, but didn't really argue with me. At this point my parents and I don't fight about it. They know they won't convince me, and I don't bring it up.

 

I never told my extended relatives, because none of them ever asked. If they did, I'd tell them, but I wouldn't get into a fight unless they start it.

 

A few of my birth-relatives on one side of the family did ask, and I told them, but we're distant enough that we never fought over it. One of my birth-relatives did send me a couple of books full of arguments intended to convince me that Christianity was true, though. If I remember right, I think I sent a note thanking them for their concern or something like that. I considered sending a book I liked back to her but I don't remember at this point if I did or not. If I did, it wasn't some kind of "here's why the bible is bullshit" type book. It may have been something like Anthony de Mello's The Song of the Bird, which contains some ideas that challenge fundamentalist thinking without being terribly angering in the process.

 

Soon I will spend some time with my immediate family holed up in a cabin in the middle of nowhere for several days. We'll see if anybody brings the topic up there.

[MathGeek]

Everybody has their tales to tell and they are quite intriguing. Political discussions are to my family what numbers are to mathematics. This is my first Christmas outside of the faith and I really wonder what will happen. Religious discussions are usually avoided. My mother went ape when I told her I wanted to be a fundy at one time and she's a guilt-driven Roman Catholic. I assume she knows my antagonism toward the faith. My father could probably care less or blow a gasket. My brother wouldn't give two shits. My little sister worries for me but she's a teen and I know she has a great heart. My brother-in-law knows, I discussed it with him last night and he seems to understand where I am coming from. He attends a church that is Evangelical and he said it helped him turn his life around. My in-laws don't know and I don't want them to. From what I've gathered, my father-in-law might not be to happy about it if it were revealed. As for my grandparents, they don't preach unless you break the house rules and I'll keep mum there, too.

 

All in all, just watch where the land minds are.

[upstarter]

I sit firmly in the "don't talk about it" camp. I have to say that over 20 years my family seem to be getting it that I don't want to talk about Jesus. The Jesus talk is WAY down, even with my sister who used to use Jesus in every sentence with me.

 

As for politics, well even when I was still trying to be a xtian I was politically liberal. I'm simply cannot be any other way. So my family is used to my politics. I don't live in the U.S. where politics is so much more closely linked to religion, so maybe it's easier for me. I can be the looney lefty in my family without it turning into a religious argument.

 

Of course when my mother talks about voting for certain people and parties because they represent family-values etc. I do speak up at times.

 

Heather

[PandaPirate]

There are a lot of things about xianity that I find funny, stupid and dangerous.

 

My brother is a preacher and he seems really happy and content. He is a loving,

humorous, compassionate person and i love him - except of course when it comes to god and the church,

here our opinions are of as different as night and day.

 

The problem is, I don't know if I should question his beliefs, because he IS his beliefs!

 

 

I don't want to force my opinion on him, because I hate when people do that, but I really

think that some of his beliefs that merge into politics are really, really offensive and discriminating.

 

Mostly, I just don't bother arguing, because I don't think he is willing to listen, but on the other hand,

my opinions are just as important as his, and I shouldn't have to stand back.

Ordinarily, we don't meet on neutral grounds, my entire family is xian and discussions take place

at home, so I feel like I'm in a position where noone would back me up.

 

How do you deal with your xian relatives?

 

Do you shut up or do you argue?

 

Christians are dangerous because they talk to people who don't exist. Today we call this schizophrenia. I know of one xtian drug rehab that won't allow their clients to take their anti-depressants. They think god can heal them. It's pretty dangerous to play psychiatrist to a mentally ill person.

 

In addition, I don't tell xtians about my deconversion. It would serve no purpose except for me to have to waste my breath explaining something they'll never understand or even TRY to understand.