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PandaPirate

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When immersed in Wicca I frequently used spells to obtain a desired outcome. I've never had one fail. I believe there is a scientific explanation for everything, including ghosts.

 

Is there a theory as to how spells really work? If so, what is it?

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Sorry PP,

 

None that I'm aware of. If you could provide a specific example, maybe we can look into it. In my experience, "magic" is the same as prayer - you get the results you expect and if you don't you are able find a rationalization for why you didn't get the expected outcome.

 

A bit like a self-fulilling prophecy. Of course, this is my opinion, but if there was any way to scientifically verify "magic" I'm sure it would have been done by now. If it hasn't, perhaps we can come up with one?

 

IMOHO,

:thanks:

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Up to Randi's million dollar challenge?

 

Sorry, I'm skeptical of any of that stuff...PROOF! I want proof, dammit! lol

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When immersed in Wicca I frequently used spells to obtain a desired outcome. I've never had one fail. I believe there is a scientific explanation for everything, including ghosts.

 

Is there a theory as to how spells really work? If so, what is it?

 

 

I have an opinion as to why spells work better than prayer. A prayer is more of a petition. A request if you will, beseeching aid from a higher power. Once the request is made, it is now in "god's hands". The petitioner has done all they can do (to their way of thinking).

 

A spell however....a spell is more focused on the desired outcome. Some requests are made, but not without the petitioner doing more than just asking for what is wanted. The asker has to do a ritual. Belief in the purpose of the ritual could be to let the goddess (or whomever) know you are sincere, or you could believe the ingredients, motions, crystals or whatnot themselves have the power to cause the desired outcome, it doesn't matter.

 

The physical action of doing more than just asking the sky is interpreted as a very different thing in the brain. You subconcious gets a different message. It's not "in god's hands"....it's in the spellcaster's hands! So the mind is already geared towards making "something" happen. So the sub conscious influences the casters actions towards doing things to increase the chances of the spell working.

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I have a "spell check" button on my browser... does that count? :)

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A spell however....a spell is more focused on the desired outcome. Some requests are made, but not without the petitioner doing more than just asking for what is wanted. The asker has to do a ritual. Belief in the purpose of the ritual could be to let the goddess (or whomever) know you are sincere, or you could believe the ingredients, motions, crystals or whatnot themselves have the power to cause the desired outcome, it doesn't matter.

 

The physical action of doing more than just asking the sky is interpreted as a very different thing in the brain. You subconcious gets a different message. It's not "in god's hands"....it's in the spellcaster's hands! So the mind is already geared towards making "something" happen. So the sub conscious influences the casters actions towards doing things to increase the chances of the spell working.

 

I agree with this. The preparation and action of doing a specific ritual, along with plenty of mental visualization is very different than prayer. Much more effective in my opinion. Of course the effectiveness is all subjective and in the mind but the feeling is very different.

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When immersed in Wicca I frequently used spells to obtain a desired outcome. I've never had one fail. I believe there is a scientific explanation for everything, including ghosts.

 

Is there a theory as to how spells really work? If so, what is it?

 

Yes, there is. Actually, there are several, none of which can really be proven, of course. :D

 

For example:

 

There's a guy named Isaac Bonewits who wrote a book called "Real Magic," based on his work in college getting a degree in (you guessed it) magic. In a nutshell, his theory is that a kind of emotional and mental energy is the "power" that causes magic to work. This energy is neutral, exists everywhere, and can be concentrated and directed a little bit like water or air. He believes that everyone uses this energy even if they are unaware of it, and that skilled magic workers use techniques with concentrate and direct it more forcefully than simply wishing or praying.

 

The book is out of print now, but you can get it through an interlibrary loan. It's worth a read. He even has an answer regarding why contests like Randi's are never won. He proposes that they themselves use their own kind of magic (which is more like an anti-magic).

 

 

There are a few different versions of magic theory along these general lines. Whether it's a neutral energy that can be directed by the mind, some power in the mind itself, or some energy that is affected by or comes from planets and stars.

 

 

Then there are other theories that propose very negative versions of how it works... such as the Christian idea that "demons do it." I seem to recall at least one suggestion that Muslims might believe that jinn do it.

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When it comes to the terra incognita of the human mind, I tend to take the middle road... if it worked for you then proof is futile. I will state one thing that is, to me, almost a religiously held belief - there ain't no such thing as the supernatural, just poor models of nature :)

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Now when I talk about the power of the unconcious mind, I'm not referring to anything metaphysical.

 

In Gavin DeBecker's The Gift of Fear, there's a great example of how the conscious mind and the subconcious mind work. The conscious mind functions in a linerar way. It starts at "A" and has to go through the whole alphabet to get to "Z", whereas the subconscious mind makes leaps. It can go from A to Z without stopping at any other letter on the way. Because of this, the subconscious mind, when it influences physical action, does so in a way that may not make immediate sense to the conscious mind until later reflection. In this way, trusting our "gut" in a crisis carries us safely through even though we may have to really think, or talk to someone later to understand those moments when it seems like some sort of "autopilot" takes us completely over.

 

Well, that inner sense must be with us all the time, only influencing us quietly and subtly instead of in the way we cannot ignore, like when our legs seem to just carry us right out of the room and out the front door when the man with the gun told us to stay put on the couch while he steps into the bathroom.

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There's a guy named Isaac Bonewits who wrote a book called "Real Magic," based on his work in college getting a degree in (you guessed it) magic. In a nutshell, his theory is that a kind of emotional and mental energy is the "power" that causes magic to work. This energy is neutral, exists everywhere, and can be concentrated and directed a little bit like water or air. He believes that everyone uses this energy even if they are unaware of it, and that skilled magic workers use techniques with concentrate and direct it more forcefully than simply wishing or praying.

I've read Real Magic and enjoyed it very much. Isaac Bonewits is still around, BTW... A quick Googling will get you right to his home page and other things he's written.

 

I like the emotional-energy hypothesis, as it fits with my own experiences and with other things I've read over the years. However, until the actual energy is identified I'm treating the phenomenon as a placebo effect.

 

One thing intense emotion can effect is quick and dirty reprogramming of the unconscious and pre-conscious mind, priming it to be alert for specific situations and opportunities. (Self-imposed hypervigilance, if you will.)

 

The mindset of a would-be spellcaster is, IMO, much more psychologically healthy than the mindset of someone praying for divine intervention. Regardless of whether it's a physical reality or just a really neat form of self-hypnosis, spellcasting puts you in the seat of responsibility and empowers you to do something. Here and now, not at the earliest convenience of a capricious deity.

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What? No quantum-based magickal theories? :magic:

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What? No quantum-based magickal theories? :magic:

 

Such as? :)

 

I wouldn't be surprised if *someone* had one, but I don't know of any off the top of my head.

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Heck why not. Maybe it all is just quantum entanglement and when you wish on a star or cast a spell, it will happen because your mind is interconnected with the event that would happen anyway...

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Old 'Mad Art' Clarke reckons that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic...

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Up to Randi's million dollar challenge?

 

Sorry, I'm skeptical of any of that stuff...PROOF! I want proof, dammit! lol

 

Too the best of my knowledge nobody ever won this wager.

 

You know, the logic is that you are "doing" rather then "asking". So, this may work on a psychologial level, but how would this effect the "target" of the spell?

 

IOW "you" "might" believe you did something, but suppose the spell were a "love" spell. Your belief that it is "working" might cause you to be more aggressive in your quest for the love object, but if you totally left the person alone, what "force" would influence them?

 

None imo, its just a mind game you play with yourself, and there is no "power" that can be conjured.

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Too the best of my knowledge nobody ever won this wager.

 

No, no one has. People say it's set up to be impossible to win, but it is set up to be purely scientific.

 

Meaning that if there IS a result, it has to be repeatable. Consistently.

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What? No quantum-based magickal theories? :magic:

I think Wilhelm Reich covered that pretty well. Some of his books:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/103-1...amp;x=0&y=0

 

He felt so strongly that he had found scientifically proven evidence of a "life force" that he threw away a comfortable career as a prestigious psychiatrist in order to further develop that knowledge. A lot of people practice magic these days employing his principles and techniques for harnessing and directing it. Although to my knowledge he had never used it in willful spell-casting, he believed it to be the basis for a quantum theory of personality organization, which when magic is seen as an expression of desire, could also be included in a theory of magic.

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Up to Randi's million dollar challenge?

 

Sorry, I'm skeptical of any of that stuff...PROOF! I want proof, dammit! lol

 

Too the best of my knowledge nobody ever won this wager.

 

You know, the logic is that you are "doing" rather then "asking". So, this may work on a psychologial level, but how would this effect the "target" of the spell?

 

IOW "you" "might" believe you did something, but suppose the spell were a "love" spell. Your belief that it is "working" might cause you to be more aggressive in your quest for the love object, but if you totally left the person alone, what "force" would influence them?

 

None imo, its just a mind game you play with yourself, and there is no "power" that can be conjured.

 

That's just it. When doing a spell I've been taught to keep silent and let go (non-interference so as to let the energy manifest) so I've never been more aggresive after a spell. Anyway, I read a book called The Holographic Universe based on the Holographic Paradigm and it goes into an explanation or theory about how "magick" works.

 

I think there's a scientific explanation. If someone from the year 500 BC were to come to the future and see TV, planes, internet and cars they would think we were all witches.

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TBH, no one knows if there is a million dollars for the challenge, and there have been a goodly number of 'challenges' that have been kicked back... so it's not open to 'all comers no matter how odd' just people that they're pretty certain won't win...

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TBH, no one knows if there is a million dollars for the challenge, and there have been a goodly number of 'challenges' that have been kicked back... so it's not open to 'all comers no matter how odd' just people that they're pretty certain won't win...

 

That wouldn't really work though. If you could meet the challange, you could make a big stink of it by publically doing the experiment and winning, crying foul! To the media about the challenge. Eventually, after you did your "trick" on enough local news programs, the pressure would be on to let them take the test. I could even see a lawsuit being won for the challenge money *if* (and that's a mighty big word) you could really pull off proof.

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TBH, no one knows if there is a million dollars for the challenge, and there have been a goodly number of 'challenges' that have been kicked back... so it's not open to 'all comers no matter how odd' just people that they're pretty certain won't win...

 

That wouldn't really work though. If you could meet the challange, you could make a big stink of it by publically doing the experiment and winning, crying foul! To the media about the challenge. Eventually, after you did your "trick" on enough local news programs, the pressure would be on to let them take the test. I could even see a lawsuit being won for the challenge money *if* (and that's a mighty big word) you could really pull off proof.

 

I"m going to cast a spell on King Leonidas now. I'll let you know how it turns out!

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When immersed in Wicca I frequently used spells to obtain a desired outcome. I've never had one fail. I believe there is a scientific explanation for everything, including ghosts.

 

Is there a theory as to how spells really work? If so, what is it?

 

 

What kind of spells are we talking about here? If, as you say, they do work, can you cast one today (Saturday January 5th, 2008) on the person spinning the Florida lotto spinning wheel so they spin the numbers I choose. Thank you very much.

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When immersed in Wicca I frequently used spells to obtain a desired outcome. I've never had one fail. I believe there is a scientific explanation for everything, including ghosts.

 

Is there a theory as to how spells really work? If so, what is it?

 

I WANT TO BELIEVE I REALLY, REALLY DO!

But I've not seen anything in the spirituality of anything to make me believe any kind of spells work. Miracles of Jesus can't be proven, what proof do you have your spells always work and never fail? To what do you contribute your success?

 

How do you cast spells?--by chanting bad poetry and cooking herbs? These days you could get a job on the Food Network with a gig like that.

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What kind of spells are we talking about here? If, as you say, they do work, can you cast one today (Saturday January 5th, 2008) on the person spinning the Florida lotto spinning wheel so they spin the numbers I choose. Thank you very much.

 

You may have heard about this...

 

(I know it's not "proof," but it's interesting.)

 

Isaac Bonewits in his book on "Real Magic" discusses using magic to win the lottery. He suggests that so many other people are also using magic, prayer, or other energy-raising techniques of various kinds to win the same drawing that it would be very difficult to make your magic beat everybody else's out to get the prize.

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[i WANT TO BELIEVE I REALLY, REALLY DO!

But I've not seen anything in the spirituality of anything to make me believe any kind of spells work. Miracles of Jesus can't be proven, what proof do you have your spells always work and never fail? To what do you contribute your success?

 

I've used magic, too, and I do think it works. Not always, but often enough that it's convinced me that there is something to it beyond pure psychology. (Because there's usually a helluva lot of that going on as well.) Isaac Bonewits's book Real Magic is probably the best theory of it that I've seen, but there are a few Chaos Magick books out there that are really good, too.

 

How do you cast spells?--by chanting bad poetry and cooking herbs? These days you could get a job on the Food Network with a gig like that.

 

Hey, if chanting poetry and cooking herbs works for you... :HaHa:

 

Isaac and other theories are a bit more detailed than what I'm gonna describe here, but in a nutshell most magic books I've read suggest that a spell requires these things:

 

1. A distinct "message" regarding what you want, which can be set up in any kind of "packaging" that your particular mind finds attractive. So that could in fact mean chanting bad poetry and cooking herbs, if the poetry or herbs reflect the meaning of your message of intent. It could also be a simple line drawing called a "sigil," whether actually drawn or simply imagined and held in the mind.

 

2. Energy to send the "message" and to give it its magical "punch." Raising energy can include anything from dancing to chanting to concentrating really hard.

 

3. A technique to get the message past one's "internal censor" which is supposedly linked to the doubting, skeptical, second-guessing part of the human mind. The message needs to get past this admittedly protective and useful part of the mind to do its work. There are various ways of doing that which is sometimes where strange-sounding techniques or bad chants come in.

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