Spells

[Amethyst]

I tried Paganism for a year or so when I was just out of the Christian religion. Spells struck me as being pretty much like prayer with props. The spells worked for me with the same randomness that prayer did. In other words, they didn't work.

 

I have to give Paganism credit though, for opening my eyes and allowing me to realize that I can't believe literally in any religion anymore with no proof. Just because something sounds good and I want it to be true, doesn't mean it's actually true.

[twincats]

I'm with Amethyst.

 

After 37 years as a xtian, I gave it up and did Wicca for 8. Gave it up last year when I realized that prayer and spells had the exact same rate of efficacy; that is, no better than random chance.

 

The big difference came when I told my pagan friends and family of my 'apostacy.' They have all wished me well on my new path. In contrast, my xtian family still doesn't know I'm no longer xtian!

[Guest Anonomous Person]

There is currently no Scientifically accepted theory that can cover causality from the mind to matter. That is not to say that in the future this will not be the case. Certainly there are many examples of Causality moving from Consciousness to Matter ie: Sexual Arousal, Hypnothis, Placebo Effect, Panic Attacks, Biofeedback etc. As modern Science views Consciousness as a construct created from the electro-chemical workings in the brain, this presents them with a real mystery. Scientists are generally very skeptical about anything supernatural, and to a degree I think this is probably a good thing. Someone else mentioned "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot. A very interesting book IMO. I would highly recomend you read this. Essentially this theory which perfectly complements traditional Mystical theories is that unlike the theories of current Material Science, Consciousness is actually the Primal Cause and the material universe is actually the last link in the chain. Following this there are many intermediate levels or dimensions inbetween the Absolute and the Relative 3D state that we are all familiar with. Just as there are specific Scientific laws that govern the material universe, there are also specific laws that govern the higher worlds, and knowledge of these higher laws can be used to effectively "override" the laws of the material world. A good text on this "The Kybalion" a short and profound Hermetic Mystical text. Also "Autobiography Of a Yogi" has many references to miracles and a few attempts at explaining how they work. It really is a continually occuring theme that I find popping up in virtually every traditional Mystical text that I read that the whole Universe is like a cosmic dream ie The Universe is made from Thought!

I must stress however, that proving such things in the sense that modern Science requires proof is rather difficult. Most often powerful spiriutal experiences provide proof for the individual of the reality of the Spiritual Worlds, however you can't expect other people to be equally convinced. I realise that my brief comments do not constitute proof for the unbeliever. I suspect PandaPirate is already a believer in such things, simply looking for an explanation. Basically we need a theory that is cohesive to all the information, basically like a Grand Unified Theory, covering not just external Science, but inner Science as well. Bye for now.

[PandaPirate]

When immersed in Wicca I frequently used spells to obtain a desired outcome. I've never had one fail. I believe there is a scientific explanation for everything, including ghosts.

 

Is there a theory as to how spells really work? If so, what is it?

 

I WANT TO BELIEVE I REALLY, REALLY DO!

But I've not seen anything in the spirituality of anything to make me believe any kind of spells work. Miracles of Jesus can't be proven, what proof do you have your spells always work and never fail? To what do you contribute your success?

 

How do you cast spells?--by chanting bad poetry and cooking herbs? These days you could get a job on the Food Network with a gig like that.

 

For example, I've cast a spell to bring $1,000 income in by a certain date. By the date I had chosen, I had that exact amount.

 

On another occasion I cast a spell asking that my ex-boyfriend call me on a certain night. He called. I've done this several times and it has always occured.

 

Mostly, the spells I've cast are for money and they've always worked.

 

HOWEVER, I do not believe that spells are spiritual in nature. It is simply our minds working with universal energy.

[Sophronia]

I don't think that spells always work. I might even venture so far as to say that they seldom work, at most perhaps there is a 50% rate. Human error will be a factor in any practice or belief system.

 

But I don't particularly feel the need to prove that spells work; why should I bother? I'm not trying to convince anyone else to perform them, and I am not accepting government funds to prop up my spells (unlike certain organizations who might get money for prayer-based activities). If you don't think that spells sound a. fun, b. effective, or c. otherwise entertaining or useful (even as a mental prop), don't do them. I might feel that turning my hat under the table helps me win at cards, and while this might be hooey, so long as my doing so harms nobody else it really doesn't make much difference.

 

This contrasts with the Christian path which would tell us that everyone should pray. I would say there's a higher burden of proof on someone who is actually trying to sell me their particular method. If Christians kept their prayer to themselves instead of trying to force it on others, its efficacy would be a non-issue for me.

[Grandpa Harley]

When immersed in Wicca I frequently used spells to obtain a desired outcome. I've never had one fail. I believe there is a scientific explanation for everything, including ghosts.

 

Is there a theory as to how spells really work? If so, what is it?

 

I WANT TO BELIEVE I REALLY, REALLY DO!

But I've not seen anything in the spirituality of anything to make me believe any kind of spells work. Miracles of Jesus can't be proven, what proof do you have your spells always work and never fail? To what do you contribute your success?

 

How do you cast spells?--by chanting bad poetry and cooking herbs? These days you could get a job on the Food Network with a gig like that.

 

For example, I've cast a spell to bring $1,000 income in by a certain date. By the date I had chosen, I had that exact amount.

 

On another occasion I cast a spell asking that my ex-boyfriend call me on a certain night. He called. I've done this several times and it has always occured.

 

Mostly, the spells I've cast are for money and they've always worked.

 

HOWEVER, I do not believe that spells are spiritual in nature. It is simply our minds working with universal energy.

 

We could do a test... I'd like £42 million by end of May 08

[Sophronia]

Mostly, the spells I've cast are for money and they've always worked.

 

HOWEVER, I do not believe that spells are spiritual in nature. It is simply our minds working with universal energy.

 

We could do a test... I'd like £42 million by end of May 08

 

Well. To make it a fair test, we'll need more than one subject. I need 3 hundred thousand US dollars please... by the end of February would really be best.

 

If you can work out a way to hide that from the IRS (taxman), even better.

[SWIM]

Heyya PP cast a spell on me to win poker lol!

[hereticzero]

A theory for spells? Theories are generally used to explain facts. There is factual data concerning spells? That's like going back to the bible to prove miracles work.

[Sophronia]

A theory for spells? Theories are generally used to explain facts. There is factual data concerning spells? That's like going back to the bible to prove miracles work.

 

One could study the act of spellcasting and the perceived results, and develop a hypothesis as to whether or not there is any correlation.

 

One could also study prayer in such a manner, and I believe some have, with wildly varying results of course. Studies are easy to manipulate.

[PandaPirate]

When immersed in Wicca I frequently used spells to obtain a desired outcome. I've never had one fail. I believe there is a scientific explanation for everything, including ghosts.

 

Is there a theory as to how spells really work? If so, what is it?

 

I WANT TO BELIEVE I REALLY, REALLY DO!

But I've not seen anything in the spirituality of anything to make me believe any kind of spells work. Miracles of Jesus can't be proven, what proof do you have your spells always work and never fail? To what do you contribute your success?

 

How do you cast spells?--by chanting bad poetry and cooking herbs? These days you could get a job on the Food Network with a gig like that.

 

For example, I've cast a spell to bring $1,000 income in by a certain date. By the date I had chosen, I had that exact amount.

 

On another occasion I cast a spell asking that my ex-boyfriend call me on a certain night. He called. I've done this several times and it has always occured.

 

Mostly, the spells I've cast are for money and they've always worked.

 

HOWEVER, I do not believe that spells are spiritual in nature. It is simply our minds working with universal energy.

 

We could do a test... I'd like £42 million by end of May 08

 

The following might sound bitchy...but it's not meant to sound that way. Just couldn't think of any other way to say it!

 

Unfortunately I could care less if you get 42 million so I wouldn't be able to invest the necessary emotional energy that I think is an essential ingredient.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Han Solo: Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.

 

Blaster's always worked well for me....

 

kL

[Grandpa Harley]

The following might sound bitchy...but it's not meant to sound that way. Just couldn't think of any other way to say it!

 

Unfortunately I could care less if you get 42 million so I wouldn't be able to invest the necessary emotional energy that I think is an essential ingredient.

Fair enough... you self centred bitch

[Grandpa Harley]

Han Solo: Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.

 

Blaster's always worked well for me....

 

kL

 

Glock or some nickel plated sissy pistol?

[PandaPirate]

The following might sound bitchy...but it's not meant to sound that way. Just couldn't think of any other way to say it!

 

Unfortunately I could care less if you get 42 million so I wouldn't be able to invest the necessary emotional energy that I think is an essential ingredient.

Fair enough... you self centred bitch

 

Stop telling the truth!

[Grandpa Harley]

Ya love me REEEEEELEEEEE! *big eyes*

 

I tend to get accused of sarcasm when I make an observation....

[PandaPirate]

Ya love me REEEEEELEEEEE! *big eyes*

 

I tend to get accused of sarcasm when I make an observation....

 

Your clown resembles Brad Pitt. Who is he?

[Grandpa Harley]

It's the son of a friend of the artist, Mark Wilkinson, called Robert Mead.

 

It's a Mashup of the Wilkinson painting for Market Square Heroes 12" EP and the cover of "Misplaced Childhood"... I think it was used on a 'Best of' Marillion album... back before they shook out the last of the just-post-Pete-Gabriel-Genesis sound...

[Grandpa Harley]

 

[PandaPirate]

That is ROCKIN! I like it!

[Grandpa Harley]

The image appeals on a very Jungian level to me...

[MultifariousBirdLady]

 

We could do a test... I'd like £42 million by end of May 08

 

The following might sound bitchy...but it's not meant to sound that way. Just couldn't think of any other way to say it!

 

Unfortunately I could care less if you get 42 million so I wouldn't be able to invest the necessary emotional energy that I think is an essential ingredient.

 

That certainly does help.

 

Although... there is also the technique of magick in which you "fire a sigil" during a moment of "gnosis" and then just forget about it.

 

 

BTW, my experience suggests that Sophorina's view that spells don't always work (at least, not quite like you want them to) is correct. I did a series of experiments along these lines once to prove to myself whether magick is real or not. I ended up with a series of "results" that had some element of what I had asked for but were not exactly right. But after refining my "directions" a few times I did actually get the results that I was after.

 

What exactly you set out to achieve and how probable it is factors into the equation (some magick books actually say this), so highly improbable events would need quite a lot of magickal power to bring it about. At least one book (Liber Kaos by Peter Carroll) actually attempts to create mathematical equations that predict the efficacy of different spells. Most of the variables are unmeasurable, though, so it's not very useful except perhaps as a way to figure out what techniques might work better than others. But the point here is that getting someone 42 mil. by May 8 is gonna be a helluva lot tougher than getting oneself a few thousand in the same time period. "Of course, this can always be excused as coincidence, but most magicians would be quite content with being able to arrange coincidences." (Psychonaut by Carroll)

 

Just something to consider.

[Tabula Rasa]

When immersed in Wicca I frequently used spells to obtain a desired outcome. I've never had one fail. I believe there is a scientific explanation for everything, including ghosts.

 

Is there a theory as to how spells really work? If so, what is it?

 

Yes, there is. Actually, there are several, none of which can really be proven, of course.

 

For example:

 

There's a guy named Isaac Bonewits who wrote a book called "Real Magic," based on his work in college getting a degree in (you guessed it) magic. In a nutshell, his theory is that a kind of emotional and mental energy is the "power" that causes magic to work. This energy is neutral, exists everywhere, and can be concentrated and directed a little bit like water or air. He believes that everyone uses this energy even if they are unaware of it, and that skilled magic workers use techniques with concentrate and direct it more forcefully than simply wishing or praying.

 

The book is out of print now, but you can get it through an interlibrary loan. It's worth a read. He even has an answer regarding why contests like Randi's are never won. He proposes that they themselves use their own kind of magic (which is more like an anti-magic).

 

 

 

What bonewit says about how everyone uses this energy without realizing it has got me wondering. What I'm specifically wondering is it's possible some people might be more attuned to it and might be able to use large amounts though still unaware of it. Also, would it be possible to consciously use magic without using any ceremonies or ceremonial items. Essentially concentrating strongly on the desired outcome and accomplishing it with sheer force of will. I hope I don't sound crazy, but I've sometimes thought that I've affected the weather a little bit just by wishing hard it wouldn't rain or that it would. I suppose it could be explained by coincidence, but I still have to wonder.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

What bonewit says about how everyone uses this energy without realizing it has got me wondering. What I'm specifically wondering is it's possible some people might be more attuned to it and might be able to use large amounts though still unaware of it. Also, would it be possible to consciously use magic without using any ceremonies or ceremonial items. Essentially concentrating strongly on the desired outcome and accomplishing it with sheer force of will. I hope I don't sound crazy, but I've sometimes thought that I've affected the weather a little bit just by wishing hard it wouldn't rain or that it would. I suppose it could be explained by coincidence, but I still have to wonder.

 

Since nobody can really measure or prove that sort of thing, it's really hard to say. However, based on what I remember from Isaac's book, along with some things in Chaos Magick, this is what I think might be going on:

 

First, yes, some people might be better at raising energy, or at focusing on their intention, or even at realizing "gnosis" in order to send some thought intent into their subconscious mind. There are different techniques that can be used in magick and some might be naturally talented at one or a few kinds, and no, they don't require the use of ceremonies or ceremonial items. The primary tool is your mind, and the ceremonies and items serve mostly to get your mind to jump through some hoops. That said, Isaac at least believes that most people, if trained, can do magick better than untrained people with natural ability. Chaos Magicians believe about the same thing, except that they further add that knowing your own mind and creating your own system(s) to work with is much more effective than using someone else's. Some (like Isaac) do believe that ritual work can create some real energetic boundaries (magic circles and so on) that help to contain and concentrate magickal power until it's ready to be fired off. Chaos Magicians on the other hand think that a quick but wisely-crafted spell can be just as effective and a lot more direct than fiddling with the whole magic circle paradigm. But, they'd also say, if you like them and if it works well for you, go ahead and use 'em.

 

With respect to changing the weather... actually it's fairly common for people to think they've done this, and sometimes arguments occur in the Pagan community whether trying to influence the weather is ethical or not (those who think it's not usually believe Nature re-corrects itself after such attempts in negative ways, or that it's not ethical to affect the weather of everybody around you just because you want a sunny day... the farmers need rain and all that). I think this is a tricky subject, because the weather is always changing and what you wish for is bound to happen eventually. So in that sense, I tend to err on the side of caution here when it comes to causality. If humans could really affect the weather that much, then 1) I think it would have rained in Georgia last year much earlier than it did, and 2) Global Warming shouldn't be such an issue.

 

On the other hand, as Crowley says, "You cannot produce a thunderstorm unless the materials exist in the air at the time, and a Magician who could make rain in Cumberland might fail lamentably in the Sahara," so for those who do this, the local conditions are considered to be a big part of their success. As mentioned before, much of magick can be called "the art of arranging coincidences." I have seen some interesting things occur, such as a rainstorm that began at a festival just as a magician started an element-based stage act started the segment on "Water Magic." The storm ended right as this water-based segment ended, too. I don't know if the magician had put forth any conscious intent to produce this effect, but it sure was memorable, and the entire crowd noticed and cheered. I've also seen an unexpected and really powerful thunder-snowstorm begin during a ritual at the moment a particular God associated with the sea and weather was invoked. (Incidentally, everybody in the local community now asks that particular God to "come gently" when they invoke him.) I've read anecdotal accounts of things like Aleister Crowley causing a thunderstorm on a clear day when rain was not supposed to occur, and I've seen some local attempts at weather magick appear to work.

 

But then again, I've also seen some local attempts at weather magick also completely fail to produce their intended results.

 

If you're interested in this, try some things and keep a log of observations like a scientist. See how it works for you.

[PandaPirate]

I tend to believe that people like myself who have a strong ancestral history of using ceremonial magick (I am part Native American) that we might have some sort of genetic memory that allows us to raise energy more easily than others.

 

I was also raised in New Orleans so there were a lot of voudon influences (not to mention beling Catholic).

 

I think the word "magick" sounds more hokey pokey than "using the force."

 

I'm certain there's a "FORCE" bigger than we are that we can use for good or bad purposes. It's like a radio though, you have to tune into the right frequency.