Christmas

[R. S. Martin]

Sonja, this post might speak specifically to your question.

[Mythra]

1. Do you celebrate Christmas with your family?

 

Yes. It was a very nice time.

 

Of course, we were unable to express any love or caring for each other, since none of us have Jesus in our hearts.

 

[Mythra]

What a stupid question.

 

No offense.

 

Oh, hell with it. Go ahead and take offense.

[Unknowing1]

As far as my husband referring to China as a “commie†country on the air – yes, he does stuff like that occasionally – no big deal, freedom of speech and all that, you know.

 

You say in your op not to bash Jesus but to bash you instead and then turn around and defend your husband's on air comments by saying "freedom of speech and all that, you know". Why is it all about you? I mean really what makes you think that you can say anything you want but want to limit what others say? I'm serious, just trying to understand.

[Unknowing1]

My family and I like to start out Christmas day by urinating on 4 or 5 churches. Even grandma gets in on it.

Then, we head over to the orphanage with empty boxes that have been wrapped(you should see their faces when they open them!).

After that, we take our pet dog, Lucifer, to the pound. Not to leave him there, but to show the other dogs what freedom looks like.

Then we drop by our local AA and drop off a case of beer.

We go home, eat a big meal, and then open all of the 'Toys for Tots' presents we stole from drop-boxes in the area.

/Sarcasm

 

What the hell do you think we do on Christmas?!

 

 

Damn what's wrong with me? I did it backwards this year, I organized a drive for the food bank and dropped off the food and also helped with a toys for tots collection.

[SWIM]

Here's a little word jumble Sonya can appreciate:

 

 

Santa ----- unscramble the jumble you get ---- Satan

 

 

LOL

[RedPillAddict]

My family and I like to start out Christmas day by urinating on 4 or 5 churches. Even grandma gets in on it.

Then, we head over to the orphanage with empty boxes that have been wrapped(you should see their faces when they open them!).

After that, we take our pet dog, Lucifer, to the pound. Not to leave him there, but to show the other dogs what freedom looks like.

Then we drop by our local AA and drop off a case of beer.

We go home, eat a big meal, and then open all of the 'Toys for Tots' presents we stole from drop-boxes in the area.

/Sarcasm

 

What the hell do you think we do on Christmas?!

 

 

Damn what's wrong with me? I did it backwards this year, I organized a drive for the food bank and dropped off the food and also helped with a toys for tots collection.

 

Oh...we do that on Halloween.

[Neon Genesis]

I swore to myself that I’d never come back to this website again.

Didn't Jesus say in the Sermon On The Mount that it was a sin to swear at all and that you should simply let your yes be yes and your no be no? Aren't you sinning by admitting you swore to yourself even though you claim to be a Christian?

 

However, after this weekend of all our family Christ-centered Christmas celebrations….and after a comment my husband made on the radio Monday*, it really made me wonder….I’d appreciate any honest reply. I’d like to avoid Christian bashing but if you must bash, at least bash me and not Christ who loves you in spite of your non-belief.

Please explain why we would bash imaginary creatures that we don't believe exists. Do you bash Santa Claus because you don't believe he exists?

 

1. Do you celebrate Christmas with your family?

Yes, I do.

 

2/; I you answered yes how can you get around that Christmas is a Christian holiday?

At first it was kind of annoying since the preachyness of Christians is like turned up to the maximum during this time of year, but after awhile you get used to it and learn to treat Jesus the same way you treat Santa Claus and other mythological beings associated with Christmas.

 

That silly question made mje wonder if non-Christians celebrate Christmas - and who better to ask?

I'm lost here. What the fuck does Santa Claus and ex-Christians celebrating Christmas have anything to do with communism?

[FreeFromReligion]

First of all, Christmas is NOT a Christian holiday. It is a pagan holiday that was "Christianized" to try to convert the pagans. It was originally celebrated as the winter solstice - meaning that spring was on its way. I don't celebrate Christmas because it means nothing to me. I'm not a Christian, nor a pagan so why would I celebrate? I personally think it's silly to go cut down a living tree, put it up in the middle of the livingroom, throw some baubles and lights on it, and then throw it out. It's equally non-sensical to me to go out to spend a lot of money on gifts for people who don't need and probably don't want what you pick out for them. There was even a time here in the U.S. when celebrating Christmas by Christians was considered heresy. What does Christmas really have to do with Jesus anyway? Nowhere in the bible does it tell believers to celebrate the birth of Jesus. It's also unlikely Jesus - if he existed - was born in December as the shepherds would not have been out in the fields with the sheep. I believe that December 25th had some meaning for the pagan cult of mother and child, you'll have to google it as I'm really not interested.

 

I understand your "concern" because I used to feel the same way when I ran into people who were unbelievers. Tust me though, your concern is misplaced and you really shouldn't worry about those of us who don't believe. You're causing yourself unnecessary stress. Your job as a Christian is to tell people about Jesus, it is not your job to "make" them believe. The bottom line is that you're wasting your time on most of us here because we've been awakened to the truth that there is no god or at least there isn't any god of the bible. the bible states itself that god is not the author of confusion. Yet the bible is just one massive book of confusion, misinformation, errors, and inconsistencies. The bible is simply an ancient book written by those with limited knowledge or uneducated supersitious people who didn't have the scientific explanations we have now for things they couldn't explain.

[sonyaj68]

(sonyaj68 @ Dec 25 2007, 11:38 PM)

I swore to myself that I’d never come back to this website again.

(Neon Genesis @ Dec 27 2007, 02:27 PM) Didn't Jesus say in the Sermon On The Mount that it was a sin to swear at all and that you should simply let your yes be yes and your no be no? Aren't you sinning by admitting you swore to yourself even though you claim to be a Christian?OTE

 

Yes you caught me, I'm human, I mess up all the time

 

(Neon Genesis @ Dec 27 2007, 02:27 PM) I'm lost here. What the fuck does Santa Claus and ex-Christians celebrating Christmas have anything to do with communism?

 

The comment on the radio about Santa not stopping in China because they don't celebrate Christmas made me think...do people who do not believe in Christ (specifically those who did at one time but no longer do) still celebrate Christmas which is what many believe to be a Christian holiday. I have a limited scope of experience and I really wanted to know. I received some intelligent answers here which helped me understand. I really just wanted to understand, and of course it makes sense - I just didn't think about it right to start with or I would not have had to ask the question.

[Taphophilia]

I actually was/am aware that the origins of so many of the “Christmas†traditions that we have today (Santa Claus, elves, decorated trees, etc.) were of pagan origin. I also know that Jesus was not born in December.

 

hmm... have you ever considered what else about Christianity is of Pagan origins?

 

Taph

[sonyaj68]

(Btw, Sonya, how will you celebrate the New Year? Do you think that is a Christian holiday too? If yes, from what? If not, how can you justify celebrating it?)

 

Good point Hans I don't consider New Years a religious/Christian holiday, but I will be spending New Years

Eve at church and New Years Day watching college football (which is practically a religion where I live but that's another subject,

[Ouroboros]

Good point Hans I don't consider New Years a religious/Christian holiday, but I will be spending New Years

Eve at church and New Years Day watching college football (which is practically a religion where I live but that's another subject,

Made any new years resolutions yet? I have... I will try to be a bit nicer to visiting Christians on this site... am I doing a good job so far?

 

I've noticed that there's some similarities between the emotional high some people get from a game, or an Amway seminar or a pentecostal prayer meeting. I wonder if it's just the endorphin high people are looking for?

[Lightbearer]

I do celebrate Christmas. So does my family. I just don't pray with them. Tune out the talk about Jesus' birth etc etc...

 

My views on Christmas are roughly expressed in this article...

 

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2254

 

Christmas Should be More Commercial

by Leonard Peikoff

 

Christmas in America is an exuberant display of human ingenuity, capitalist productivity, and the enjoyment of life. Yet all of these are castigated as "materialistic"; the real meaning of the holiday, we are told, is assorted Nativity tales and altruist injunctions (e.g., love thy neighbor) that no one takes seriously.

 

In fact, Christmas as we celebrate it today is a 19th-century American invention. The freedom and prosperity of post-Civil War America created the happiest nation in history. The result was the desire to celebrate, to revel in the goods and pleasures of life on earth. Christmas (which was not a federal holiday until 1870) became the leading American outlet for this feeling.

 

Historically, people have always celebrated the winter solstice as the time when the days begin to lengthen, indicating the earth's return to life. Ancient Romans feasted and reveled during the festival of Saturnalia. Early Christians condemned these Roman celebrations -- they were waiting for the end of the world and had only scorn for earthly pleasures. By the fourth century, the pagans were worshipping the god of the sun on December 25, and the Christians came to a decision: if you can't stop 'em, join 'em. They claimed (contrary to known fact) that the date was Jesus' birthday, and usurped the solstice holiday for their Church.

 

Even after the Christians stole Christmas, they were ambivalent about it. The holiday was inherently a pro-life festival of earthly renewal, but the Christians preached renunciation, sacrifice, and concern for the next world, not this one. As Cotton Mather, an 18th-century clergyman, put it: "Can you in your consciences think that our Holy Savior is honored by mirth? . . . Shall it be said that at the birth of our Savior . . . we take time . . . to do actions that have much more of hell than of heaven in them?"

 

Then came the major developments of 19th-century capitalism: industrialization, urbanization, the triumph of science -- all of it leading to easy transportation, efficient mail delivery, the widespread publishing of books and magazines, new inventions making life comfortable and exciting, and the rise of entrepreneurs who understood that the way to make a profit was to produce something good and sell it to a mass market.

 

For the first time, the giving of gifts became a major feature of Christmas. Early Christians denounced gift-giving as a Roman practice, and Puritans called it diabolical. But Americans were not to be deterred. Thanks to capitalism, there was enough wealth to make gifts possible, a great productive apparatus to advertise them and make them available cheaply, and a country so content that men wanted to reach out to their friends and express their enjoyment of life. The whole country took with glee to giving gifts on an unprecedented scale.

 

Santa Claus is a thoroughly American invention. There was a St. Nicholas long ago and a feeble holiday connected with him (on December 5). In 1822, an American named Clement Clarke Moore wrote a poem about a visit from St. Nick. It was Moore (and a few other New Yorkers) who invented St. Nick's physical appearance and personality, came up with the idea that Santa travels on Christmas Eve in a sleigh pulled by reindeer, comes down the chimney, stuffs toys in the kids' stockings, then goes back to the North Pole.

 

Of course, the Puritans denounced Santa as the Anti-Christ, because he pushed Jesus to the background. Furthermore, Santa implicitly rejected the whole Christian ethics. He did not denounce the rich and demand that they give everything to the poor; on the contrary, he gave gifts to rich and poor children alike. Nor is Santa a champion of Christian mercy or unconditional love. On the contrary, he is for justice -- Santa gives only to good children, not to bad ones.

 

All the best customs of Christmas, from carols to trees to spectacular decorations, have their root in pagan ideas and practices. These customs were greatly amplified by American culture, as the product of reason, science, business, worldliness, and egoism, i.e., the pursuit of happiness.

 

America's tragedy is that its intellectual leaders have typically tried to replace happiness with guilt by insisting that the spiritual meaning of Christmas is religion and self-sacrifice for Tiny Tim or his equivalent. But the spiritual must start with recognizing reality. Life requires reason, selfishness, capitalism; that is what Christmas should celebrate -- and really, underneath all the pretense, that is what it does celebrate. It is time to take the Christ out of Christmas, and turn the holiday into a guiltlessly egoistic, pro-reason, this-worldly, commercial celebration.

[Celsus]

I do celebrate Christmas with my family, who are all Christians. Christmas, at least in the home, is about family being together, eating gobs of good food, watching football...in short having fun. I do not attend the church-based Christmas events, like midnight services or nativity plays. Whether Christians like it (or even know about it) or not, Christmas is a rather new celebration to Protestants. Christmas is a redefined pagan holiday, like other members have stated. It is not just "a Christian holiday with pagan influences", it is a pagan holiday that has Christian influences. Early Protestant reformers recognized what it was and condemned the celebration of Christmas as being pagan and Romanish (Catholic). Only in the late 1800's did our modern Christmas arise, mainly out of commercial appeal and support. Santa was, and still is an icon of Coca-Cola, Rudolph was invented by Montgomery Wards Department Store, etc.

 

I have no problem celebrating any holiday. One can enjoy a myth and the celebrations around it, without believing in the myths. Halloween is fun too, even hiding easter eggs for kids is fun.

[Taphophilia]

I had a friend who when she was a Christian refused to have a Christmas tree because of the verse in the Bible about not having trees in your house. (I don't remember where it is, and I'm too tired to look it up). When she deconverted, one of the things she did as a heathen was to put up a Christmas tree and decorate her house with evergreen bushes, holly. She went all out. Christmas to her was snubbing Christianity.

[sonyaj68]

Good point Hans I don't consider New Years a religious/Christian holiday, but I will be spending New Years

Eve at church and New Years Day watching college football (which is practically a religion where I live but that's another subject,

Made any new years resolutions yet? I have... I will try to be a bit nicer to visiting Christians on this site... am I doing a good job so far?

 

I've noticed that there's some similarities between the emotional high some people get from a game, or an Amway seminar or a pentecostal prayer meeting. I wonder if it's just the endorphin high people are looking for?

 

 

You are doing a great job! I don't make too many new years resolutions because I'm not good at keeping them. I'm a 'one day at a time' kind of person when it comes to making changes in my life - eating healthier, exercising, being nicer, etc. I've only made one new years resolution that I've kept - one year I made a resolution that I would only wear purple underwear. Then I threw out all my underwear that wasn't purple, and I only buy purple. :-)

[Ouroboros]

I was thinking about the whole idea of New Year resolution and I've been pretty bad in making them or even following them before, but 2007 I at least tried to. The resolution is more about setting a goal, trying to achieve it and do the best, and then improve for the next year. Basically it's a training for self-improvement, and it's more important that one try and fail then not to try at all. I did a lot of workout 2007, but I failed in some other areas that now in 2008 I will try to correct. And I will still keep on exercising. Also, if you set the goals too high, you are guaranteed to fail. Set them at a level you believe you can achieve, and then most important of all... write it down in your calendar or somewhere you can go back and find later, because you need to remind yourself what it was (that's the hardest part - keep on forgetting what promise I made).

[Evolution_beyond]

Silly, silly, silly. I don't know any atheists that object to celebrating Christmas. That's the kind of pettiness you only get around religious people (eg. Halloween)

 

1. Do you celebrate Christmas with your family?

 

Yes

 

2/; I you answered yes how can you get around that Christmas is a Christian holiday?

 

It was a pagan festival first (although obviously it wasn't called Christmas then) and the Christians appropriated it for celebrating the birth of Jesus. Since then it has also become secularised with all this Santa nonsense.

 

The secular and pagan elements can still be enjoyed without having to be a christian to enjoy them. I can choose to ignore all the Jesus stuff if I want to.

 

At the end of the day it's a good excuse to spend time with my family, enjoy Christmas TV and eat a lot and get drunk. Why would I want to pass up on all of that just to be petty and grumpy about it being a 'christian' holiday?

 

That kind of petty grumpiness only seems to come from religious folk, whether they are refusing to celebrate Halloween because it's all about witches and stuff, refusing to celebrate Christmas or birthdays because they are Jehovah's witnesses or making a big fuss about a teddy bear called Mohammed because they are stupidly fanatical moslems.

 

We non-religious folk generally don't believe in making a big fuss about something that doesn't really matter all that much.

[Evolution_beyond]

As far as my husband referring to China as a “commie” country on the air – yes, he does stuff like that occasionally – no big deal, freedom of speech and all that, you know.

 

No big deal?

 

Freedom of speech shouldn't be used as an excuse to use pejorative words and phrases to other ethnicities and nationalities. 'Commie' is not exactly a polite way of saying communist is it?

 

Reason for edit: I realised this is the Colliseum and thought I'd better tone down my confrontational approach there

[Unknowing1]

As far as my husband referring to China as a “commie†country on the air – yes, he does stuff like that occasionally – no big deal, freedom of speech and all that, you know.

 

No big deal?

 

Freedom of speech shouldn't be used as an excuse to use pejorative words and phrases to other ethnicities and nationalities. 'Commie' is not exactly a polite way of saying communist is it?

 

Reason for edit: I realised this is the Colliseum and thought I'd better tone down my confrontational approach there

 

I asked in a previous post why she felt she could ask us to forgo our freedom of speech and not bash her Jesus and then excuse her husbands comments as freedom of speech. Of course I'm still waiting for a reply even though she's posted about her purple underwear since then. Yeah, I'm thrilled to know about her purple underwear.

[Alice]

1. Do you celebrate Christmas with your family?

 

2/; I you answered yes how can you get around that Christmas is a Christian holiday?

 

3 If you answered no, how do you handle things in your community, your children’s schools, co-workiers exchanging gits, Christmas cards, parties, etc. And, do your kids feel left out?

 

1. Yes

 

2. We don't feel the need to 'get around' anything. There are millions of versions of 'Christmas' being celebrated in millions of home in various parts of the globe, some traditions are widely practiced, some are peculiar to particular regions and some are unique to individual families .. so we make up our own Christmas mix' like everyone else who celebrates at this time.

 

We start the day by attending a midnight church service - because my Mother and her husband are practicing Christains. We go because we like singing, the Church looks pretty, it's good to get some fresh air, the rituals are weird but interesting and we generally all get the giggles (but try not to let anyone else see as we don't wish to be disrespectful)

 

We have lots of good food, and the menu includes options for the vegans and the meat eaters. We play hours and hours of board games and parlour games. We laugh till it hurts. We go for long country walks and drink mulled wine to warm up.

 

3. I have some work collegues and friends who don't celebrate Chrismas and celebrate other holidays. There is mutual respect and interest that flows both ways, it is OK to be different.

 

*My husband does the morning show on the local radio station and he was doing “Santa Trekking†using a website that showed he was at the Great Wall of China (I was on the show with him, do that sometimes when I'm off work which I was today) Rick said, “I didn’t know Santa stopped in commie countries I proceeded to remind about the “secret†missionaries who live there as well as the few Americans who live there ‘’

 

That silly question made me wonder if non-Christians celebrate Christmas - and who better to ask?

 

You indicate this is not an out of character comment for your hubby to make. The time has come to jolt him out of his blinkered ignorance. He needs to know how much his attitude stinks. I suggest next time you pause and then say clearly and firmly into the mic, ''Rick, is that the way you think Jesus would refer to the Chinese? How do you think our Lord feels hearing you speak in this way?" Then pause again, just slightly before saying something like ... " come on listeners, who is with me? Isn't it time we stopped speaking dismissively about people from other nations and cultures? Isn't it time to truly start regarding men and women the world over as worthy of love and respect and stop hiding our predjudices and fears and desire for world domination behind a religion that claims love but is in fact teaching exclusivity and damnation?"

 

The only way you'd get more of a response is if you scratched all of the above and said instead 'well I don't know about that Rick - but I've got purple panties on'.

[R. S. Martin]

You indicate this is not an out of character comment for your hubby to make. The time has come to jolt him out of his blinkered ignorance. He needs to know how much his attitude stinks. I suggest next time you pause and then say clearly and firmly into the mic, ''Rick, is that the way you think Jesus would refer to the Chinese? How do you think our Lord feels hearing you speak in this way?" Then pause again, just slightly before saying something like ... " come on listeners, who is with me? Isn't it time we stopped speaking dismissively about people from other nations and cultures? Isn't it time to truly start regarding men and women the world over as worthy of love and respect and stop hiding our predjudices and fears and desire for world domination behind a religion that claims love but is in fact teaching exclusivity and damnation?"

 

The only way you'd get more of a response is if you scratched all of the above and said instead 'well I don't know about that Rick - but I've got purple panties on'.

 

Now we're getting at the heart of the matter. Fundy Christian wife can't say that to her husband, much less in public. Perhaps she can talk about her panties but probably not the sermonette about being nice to the Chinese. Maybe Gramps is right when he insists we're in an insane world...

[sonyaj68]

Believe it or not, I have recently - say, 4-6 weeks ago - made a no tolerance policy in my home that no racist remarks, no matter how “harmless†they may seem, will be allowed. Our culture here in ‘small town Texas’ breeds racist attitudes towards the ever-growing Hispanic population. My son and his friends tease each other….one of my son’s best friends is ½ Hispanic - he is a Marine and we love him like a son. When he and our son our together, it isn’t long before they are calling each other “cracker†and “greaser†and they both think it is funny. However, it is not funny when my 12 year old son is certain we can’t trust my housekeeper because she happens to be Hispanic. I’ve had a long talk with my husband and both boys and told them that these things that seem harmless (the jokes with the friends) must STOP because they lead to attitudes that are not true and cannot be allowed. They have to stop and the only way I know to stop it is to stop it NOW all at once. They all looked at me like I was crazy but they have honored my request. Of course, the first thing that happened was that we were invited to a friend’s house to watch a Dallas Cowboy game and one of the players was picking something out of one of the other player’s hair - both players happened to be black - and another couple who was there, the husband said “they look like a couple of monkeys†Rick said “okay Sonya, let him have it like you did us†I wasn’t prepared to call someone down in someone else’s home, but I did, in a nice way, tell him that we were trying to be careful about racist comments. He was mortified and apologized about 10 times and everyone was uncomfortable; You see, I’m not talking about ignorant rednecks, I’m talking about people who were raised in this life and this type of behavior is not only allowed but it is basically expected. It takes people to take drastic steps for it to stop. Racism is alive and well and it isn’t going away overnight. I said all that to say that my husband talking about “commies†in China isn’t necessarily the kindest, most Christ-like thing to say. However, he was referring to their political communist belief system and not their race. And I can guarantee no Chinese people were offended! My point is that we have major things to work on in the world we live in right now, and he was merely “popping of†about the fact that more than likely people in China (a communist country) would not be celebrating Christmas and therefore would not be expecting Santa. Saying something like that on our local radio station is not a big deal He usually gets in the most trouble when he talks about “animal rights whackos†or “tree huggers†But, the whole point about being controversial on the radio is that people listen, if they agree or not. I as a Christian don’t pretend to be perfect, but I do try to be kind to everyone and give everyone respect.

[Ouroboros]

Sonya, I'm glad that you're taking a stand against racism and racial remarks because even if they might be funny they can hurt people. So kudos to you. And I have no problems with you or anyone calling communist "commies", since it's more of an abbreviation than an epithet or slur.