Christmas

[R. S. Martin]

Sonya, I'm glad that you're taking a stand against racism and racial remarks because even if they might be funny they can hurt people. So kudos to you. And I have no problems with you or anyone calling communist "commies", since it's more of an abbreviation than an epithet or slur.

 

Like fundies?

 

Maybe some people use fundy as a slur but I use it because it's shorter and easier than fundamentalist. Both mean the same to me.

[Ouroboros]

Sonya, I'm glad that you're taking a stand against racism and racial remarks because even if they might be funny they can hurt people. So kudos to you. And I have no problems with you or anyone calling communist "commies", since it's more of an abbreviation than an epithet or slur.

 

Like fundies?

Very much so. I think that sometimes we (humans) tend to be a bit over sensitive to "words" that just depict what or who we are, and they're not wrong, but somehow by tradition and use they become loaded or charged without reason. Like, I don't care if you call me "whitey because I'm white, and I find it even comical if someone call me Evil Atheist. Sure, call me whatever, a rose is still a rose.

[R. S. Martin]

I might have a bit of a stretch with whitey because for me that's a cow. We had a white cow by that name back on the farm. On the other hand, I've found that for me the attitude behind the words is more important than the actual words used. I had a prof who lectured in one blue streak of profanity. But he did it with such great good will and cheerful pleasure that it was impossible for me to fault him. Not to mention that he was the teacher who gave me my first break. Others (possibly hard core fundy--I wouldn't know) took offense because of his language.

 

I think: Forget about the details and focus on the motives!

 

BTW, I was still a horse and buggy Mennonite at the time. The time bomb was ticking but I was still with them, a member in good standing, because they didn't know where I was spending a certain amount of my time each week. And they wouldn't know for another six months or so.

[Unknowing1]

In my particular case I was questioning the fact that she asks us to limit our freedom of speech to not hurt her but defends her husband making comments by using the freedom of speech excuse. All I'm getting out of her post to explain is that she doesn't want it in her home where a limited number of people can hear but it's ok to make comments on air where anyone can hear.

 

And sweetheart, I just took great offense at the comment you just made. You see I'm one of those animal rights "wackos". While I am not out there with PITA or other types of the more militant groups I do believe that animals have rights. I volunteer in an animal shelter caring for animals that are abused as well as fostering dogs that have been so abused they don't trust humans and any sound made causes them to go into a panic. My own dog is a neurotic mess that may be scarred for life. I've seen first hand the abuse suffered by these animals and can't imagine a "good Christian" treating another of Gods creations that way. Had you said animal rights activists I would not have had a problem but you just had to use the word "wacko" to describe us.

 

EDIT: I do applaud your trying to limit the speech in your home, however you need to take it a step further and try to get rid of the mentality that drives that speech. It doesn't do any good to not say it if your thoughts are still there.

[Alice]

Sonya,

 

I'm also pleased to hear that you are making attempts to curb what you recognise as an unchristlike approach to other groups of people. If the use of such terminology on the radio is about 'controversy' then I suggest that the advice I gave you in my last post would stir up quite a storm and maybe would reach a whole load of people. The irony of offering advice to a visiting Chrisitan on how to be more Christlike has not escaped us.

 

This comment of Ruby's is key, IMO

 

On the other hand, I've found that for me the attitude behind the words is more important than the actual words used. I had a prof who lectured in one blue streak of profanity. But he did it with such great good will and cheerful pleasure that it was impossible for me to fault him.

 

I think I was picking up an unpleasant attitude behind the words and your story about your son confirms that this is something he is being exposed to. There are vast differences in intent in the way words are used. Someone who will play fast and loose with slurs on various groups of people for the sake of ratings has an absence of love in their heart for their fellow man that causes me great concern.

 

Sonya, I wish you well in trying to tackle this - it can't be easy.

 

 

EDIT: I do applaud your trying to limit the speech in your home, however you need to take it a step further and try to get rid of the mentality that drives that speech. It doesn't do any good to not say it if your thoughts are still there.

 

I echo this.

[Sparrow]

I actually was/am aware that the origins of so many of the “Christmas†traditions that we have today (Santa Claus, elves, decorated trees, etc.) were of pagan origin. I also know that Jesus was not born in December. Where I live, which is in a fairly small town in Texas in the Bible belt, if you celebrate Christmas, you are celebrating the birth of Christ – I realize the secular things have nothing to do with the religious or spiritual celebration – but they go together. That’s what prompted my question…if you don’t celebrate the birth of Christ, do you still celebrate Christmas. And several of you gave me great answers that made a lot of sense to me. I wasn’t trying to “trip you up†or make fun of you or what have you – I really wanted to know, and you told me.

 

As far as my husband referring to China as a “commie†country on the air – yes, he does stuff like that occasionally – no big deal, freedom of speech and all that, you know.

 

If you were aware of the origins of christmas, etc, then why ask such a patently stupid bizarre and leading question? Is it that you think the people here are idiots?

 

You also ask that we don't bash jesus, to which I have to ask "Are you serious???????"

 

You really want special "free speech" treatment for your husband, but deny that we can have a "free speech" about your imaginary jesus???

 

You wonder why some people have such a poor opinion about christians?

 

Have a look at the attached picture - this is what you sound like.

 

Spatz

[Purple]

Good point Hans I don't consider New Years a religious/Christian holiday, but I will be spending New Years

Eve at church and New Years Day watching college football (which is practically a religion where I live but that's another subject,

Made any new years resolutions yet? I have... I will try to be a bit nicer to visiting Christians on this site... am I doing a good job so far?

 

I've noticed that there's some similarities between the emotional high some people get from a game, or an Amway seminar or a pentecostal prayer meeting. I wonder if it's just the endorphin high people are looking for?

 

 

You are doing a great job! I don't make too many new years resolutions because I'm not good at keeping them. I'm a 'one day at a time' kind of person when it comes to making changes in my life - eating healthier, exercising, being nicer, etc. I've only made one new years resolution that I've kept - one year I made a resolution that I would only wear purple underwear. Then I threw out all my underwear that wasn't purple, and I only buy purple. :-)

 

 

stalker, fan....... it's a fine line.

[crazy-tiger]

Here are my questions, all to nom-believers/self-professed exChristians - atheists - etc

 

1. Do you celebrate Christmas with your family?

No... mainly because most of my family live at the other end of the country, I'm disabled so can't travel that well/far, and them coming all the way here is just a bit too much of an epic adventure...

 

That, and very few of them celebrate Christmas as anything more than a two-week "end of year" celebration. (in fact, most people in this country do just that, so no problems with it)

2/; I you answered yes how can you get around that Christmas is a Christian holiday?

But it isn't...

 

Strange, but didn't you later say that you knew that it wasn't a Christian holiday? Makes me wonder just why you asked that question then, since you already knew it wasn't and knew we didn't have to "get around" it being Christian.

3 If you answered no, how do you handle things in your community, your children’s schools, co-workiers exchanging gits, Christmas cards, parties, etc. And, do your kids feel left out?

Sorry, but my community doesn't feel the need to exclude people just because they don't believe the same...

 

Well, except some Christians and a few Muslims... who seem to have this superiority complex going.

 

 

 

Since Christmas is a two-week celebration of the year-end, with the cards/gifts/parties and so on being about just that, why in the name of hell would anyone feel the need handle it unless they hated celebrating?? Methinks you assume a lot in that question... a lot that is blinding you to all the possibilties.

My husbanhd does the morning show on the locale radio station and he was doing “Santa Trekking†using a website that showed he was at the Great Wall of China (I was on the show with him, do that sometimes when I'm off work which I was today) Rick said, “I didn’t know Santa stopped in commie countries I proceeded to remind about the “secret†missionaries who olive there as well as the few Americans who live there ‘’

 

That silly question made mje wonder if non-Christians celebrate Christmas - and who better to ask?

Yes, well... 2 out of 3 of your questions were rather silly. Oh, and the "secret missionaries"? Stop talking rubbish... People are openly Christian in China without any need to "hide" their faith.

 

 

You could try letting your husband know that even at the height of Communism in Europe/USSR, over half the population of the Communist countries were Christian. Makes you wonder how many lies about those "Godless Commies" you and your husband have fallen for....

[Grandpa Harley]

(Btw, Sonya, how will you celebrate the New Year? Do you think that is a Christian holiday too? If yes, from what? If not, how can you justify celebrating it?)

 

Good point Hans I don't consider New Years a religious/Christian holiday, but I will be spending New Years

Eve at church and New Years Day watching college football (which is practically a religion where I live but that's another subject,

 

But today is the day that our lord was circumcised and got his name! How on EARTH can you say it's not a celebration... you heathen...

 

As a question, how can someone who professes to be a Chrisitan sell Insurance? From my experience it's the preserve of people who don't have the moral fortitude to sell drugs to children... how does one justify and rationalise basically betting someone their house won't burn down, they won't get ill etc and then squirm like the guts of three day dead road kill in April if you lose the bet?

[crazy-tiger]

Seriously though, when I was a christian I would have thought you lukewarm and predicted that god was going to spit you out of his mouth. I would have said you were worshipping the spirit of the age and joining yoking yourself with unbelievers and doctrines of demons.

And I bet you would have felt grieved for her and unable to help her into God's arms...

 

 

Isn't it funny how Christians just can't agree on what a Christian is?

[crazy-tiger]

squirm like the guts of three day dead road kill in April if you lose the bet?

Cheers... I'd just finished eating when I read that...

 

 

 

Still, I've read things that were more nauseating than that over on FSTDT while eating, so...

[sonyaj68]

Once again I’m to the point where I must stay out - funny that I’m staying out of a topic I started - but my husband hit the nail on the head - he said it is like going from being the spiritual, caring, loving person whom I am and turning myself into “church lady†(as in Dana Carvey’s famous SNL character) who does nothing but turn off others and in no ways leads people to Christ .Just wanted to explain my absence of posts and non-response. Happy New Year and all that brings to all of you!

[Deva]

Once again I’m to the point where I must stay out - funny that I’m staying out of a topic I started - but my husband hit the nail on the head - he said it is like going from being the spiritual, caring, loving person whom I am and turning myself into “church lady” (as in Dana Carvey’s famous SNL character) who does nothing but turn off others and in no ways leads people to Christ .Just wanted to explain my absence of posts and non-response. Happy New Year and all that brings to all of you!

 

"lead people to Christ" - on here that's a fools errand. Actually Sonya, you seemed to have mellowed a bit from your first posts on here, but if you want to leave, that's quite all right.

 

Happy New Year to you also!

[Grandpa Harley]

"find her that nauseating brand of stepford fundy that is conveniently naive and spouts platitudes about Jesus, then when confronted with reason and reality, uses her husband to hide behind and disappears back into her stepford christian suburban life where she can view life through cozy, rosy, Jesus glasses and maintain her delusions about life."

 

They mostly are... even the Universalists...

 

As to nauseous... I threw up in my mouth with this

 

Once again I’m to the point where I must stay out - funny that I’m staying out of a topic I started - but my husband hit the nail on the head - he said it is like going from being the spiritual, caring, loving person whom I am and turning myself into “church lady†(as in Dana Carvey’s famous SNL character) who does nothing but turn off others and in no ways leads people to Christ .Just wanted to explain my absence of posts and non-response. Happy New Year and all that brings to all of you!

 

Please, you self centred ego polishing bag of tripes... you ARE church lady. Additionally, it is 'WHO I am' not 'WHOM'!! "Whom" never applies to "I"... in that sentence it would be far better to be '...,that I am...' or '...which I am'. By the five wounds and the crown of thorns, I loathe that pompous, self referential, shit even more when it wrapped about poor grammar! Good riddance!

[crazy-tiger]

Once again I’m to the point where I must stay out - funny that I’m staying out of a topic I started - but my husband hit the nail on the head - he said it is like going from being the spiritual, caring, loving person whom I am and turning myself into “church lady†(as in Dana Carvey’s famous SNL character) who does nothing but turn off others and in no ways leads people to Christ .Just wanted to explain my absence of posts and non-response. Happy New Year and all that brings to all of you!

No... your husband didn't hit it on the head. Your husband missed it almost as badly as you did.

 

You're one of those people (by the sounds of it) who's all caring, loving and spiritual as long as no-one disagrees with your beliefs... You're also one of those who doesn't know the first thing about the history of those beliefs and has just been hit with the reality of what happens when you try to spread your lack of knowledge to those who know better.

 

 

Yes Sonya... you've tried to spread the word to those who not only know better, but are very, very bored of hearing the same old rubbish from Christians like you.

 

Not to say that those Christians who believe that YOU aren't following the right beliefs haven't spewed the exact same garbage... but that doesn't excuse you for doing it, and the fact that it's so common gives the impression that Christians just DON'T LEARN.

 

 

 

By the way... did you ever read in the Bible about how women are not to teach men, to instruct them, to try to guide them? If yes, you've willfully sinned... if no, then you've still sinned and show another gap in the knowledge of your own beliefs. Unless you're male, in which case you've lied about the husband... unless you're gay, in which case you're condemned to hell.

 

Ah heck... you're going to hell no matter what. Do you want a place kept for you in the classy quarter?

[Ouroboros]

Once again I’m to the point where I must stay out - funny that I’m staying out of a topic I started - but my husband hit the nail on the head - he said it is like going from being the spiritual, caring, loving person whom I am and turning myself into “church lady” (as in Dana Carvey’s famous SNL character) who does nothing but turn off others and in no ways leads people to Christ .Just wanted to explain my absence of posts and non-response. Happy New Year and all that brings to all of you!

Oh too bad. I thought you and I were having a good conversation?

[Grandpa Harley]

She's a muppet!

[Unknowing1]

What a mess of contradictions she is. Sorry to hear it though as she's missed a great opportunity to learn and grow as a person.

[white_raven23]

2/; I you answered yes how can you get around that Christmas is a Christian holiday?

 

 

Sonja,

 

Just because christians renamed the holiday, and added manger decorations and church going, does not make it a christian holiday. And when you really look at the holiday, and how it's celebrated, that's ALL of the holiday christians can claim ownership of. Funny too, that the celebration predates the birth of jesus, but expecting you to actually know the contents of a history book is asking too much.

 

As for the modern celebration:

 

What, pray tell, do multi-colored lights on houses and trees have to do with the birth of some kid in a stable?

 

And Santa BTW, visits ALL the kids of the world, not just the christian ones....so.... Santa's not exclusive to your little club either.

 

And mistletoe, evergreen trees, and holly are NOT native to the middle east, so they can't in any way relate to the stablebaby myth. Hint: it's stuff relating to pre-christian beliefs...what you might call "pagan" that the church didn't feel threatened by.

 

And exchanging gifts with loved ones shows appreciation for the people in your own life. Real ones. You want to make that into some symbolic BS about representing the gifts of the magi....it's a bit of a stretch. Especially for gifts like lingere and massage oils. I was thinking of baby jesus when I bought these for you. Riiiiight.

 

As for charity....you really need to pick up that history book. This was the time of year when smart Lords of the Manor threw a feast, feeding the peasantry that worked his lands, and sending them home with "gifts" of grain, oats, or whatnot to help see their way through winter. It may not have been a whole lot, but even a few more meals could make a difference, and it also supported and reinforced the acceptance (psychologically) of the Lords position and authority.

 

So there's no "getting around" the Christian holiday.....it originally was't a christian holiday! If anything...I'd like to ask you Sonya....how do you "get around" all the pagan celebrating if you plan to celebrate the christian way? I assume you want to be humble and show humility....so putting bright electricity bill raising lights all over the house must be out. You want to be focused of Jesus, so no gift exchange....you are supposed to be contemplating Jesus, not worrying about what to get for Uncle Bob.

 

And of course you plan to be at church all day long on the 25th right? Which is great, because it keeps you off the roads and out of my way when I'm getting ready to celebrate the season with my family.

[Grandpa Harley]

 

That is the best post on here!

[Purple]

Once again I’m to the point where I must stay out - funny that I’m staying out of a topic I started - but my husband hit the nail on the head - he said it is like going from being the spiritual, caring, loving person whom I am and turning myself into “church lady†(as in Dana Carvey’s famous SNL character) who does nothing but turn off others and in no ways leads people to Christ .Just wanted to explain my absence of posts and non-response. Happy New Year and all that brings to all of you!

 

 

So, your husband thinks you turn people off??

[Grandpa Harley]

Maybe it's the thought of her in her purple frillies that makes the tired old racist scumbag puke...

 

I confess, it did little for me...

[Grandpa Harley]

What a mess of contradictions she is. Sorry to hear it though as she's missed a great opportunity to learn and grow as a person.

She'd learn nothing... you can tell... she came to preach, not talk...

[GraphicsGuy]

Damn...almost missed the fun on this one!

 

The reason I wanted to not come back is because I was (still am) so grieved for you and felt helpless.

 

You're not grieved for us. You grieve because you can't explain why any caring God would allow such things to happen to all of us and the cognitive dissonance is tearing you apart. That's why you can't stick around. The double-mindedness begins and you can't shake it unless you stay away and emerse yourself in fundyism until you're convinced that the church has given you all the answers....that aren't really answers, just excuses to make you ignore the questions.

 

The FSM is after you and he won't give up until you submit to his noodly goodness.

 

I’d like to avoid Christian bashing but if you must bash, at least bash me and not Christ who loves you in spite of your non-belief.

 

Um...if Jesus is real then in my opinion he actually hates me because what I went through was NOT loving care at all. I'm sure many others here would say that their own experiences agree with that sentiment.

 

Here are my questions, all to nom-believers/self-professed exChristians - atheists - etc

 

"Self-professed" exChristians? Ohhhh...you're one of those who believes that ex-xians can't exist, right? We were all just never really saved? Well fuck you then.

 

1. Do you celebrate Christmas with your family?

 

No, because my fundy-family dumped me when I said I didn't believe anymore. I celebrated Xmas (yes, X-mas...North American commercialism has nothing to do with Christ so it's definitely X-mas) with my little girl who loves and accepts me unconditionally. She doesn't care what I believe, she just wants to be with me.

 

I am also fortunate enough to have loving, accepting parents who I don't even call Xians because to me "Christian" is pretty much a dirty word. It's been tainted. It's been fouled. It's an ugly thing. There are so many on this site whose own parents have pretty much disavowed them. How anyone could do that to their child I have no clue. My kids would have to become Hitler himself before I disavowed them...and even then it would kill me to do it.

 

2/; I you answered yes how can you get around that Christmas is a Christian holiday?

 

It's not a Xian holiday. Make all the excuses you want, but who really gives a damn about Jesus on Xmas morning?

 

3 If you answered no, how do you handle things in your community, your children’s schools, co-workiers exchanging gits, Christmas cards, parties, etc. And, do your kids feel left out?

 

I don't have to rationalize other peoples thoughts or actions for them, just for myself. Whatever the hell people want to do is up to them. If they want to give me Xian stuff, fine. I'll do with it what I will.

[Grandpa Harley]

So, your husband thinks you turn people off??

 

Nope, that is just the "submissive christian wife" excuse to get out of things. Mention the husband and you know she must do as she is told. I wonder if she checked out that christian discipline website. LOL!

 

She came here to preach. Christians think that more people's hearts are softened to the message of christ at christmas because of "the message". So she gave it one more go here thinking we might be enchanted with the nativity story around christmas. We aren't and she learned too much that she didn't want to know. I remember when I found out the pagan roots of christmas as a christian. I was shocked and felt really guilty participating in the holiday and confused. It was something I wished I hadn't heard. I liked being naive and joining in with the "jesus is the reason for the season" stuff. Christian apologists usually think, "Oh ex-christians, they don't have any real information, they are just a bunch of malcontents," so they come here expecting that we won't shatter any illusions they have. She'll never be able to go back to singing Silent Night while decorating a tree quite the same ever again.

 

 

Gee, thanks... just what I needed... the image of those spanking pantaloons in purple...