Christmas

[Deva]

He loves you so much that He sent His son so die for you

 

You should realize by now what kind of a reception that statement is going to get on this site. The guilt trip just doesn't work anymore, don't you realize that?

 

Even assuming Christ really existed, and in fact he was crucified, he died for himself alone. Even if he "died for me" I didn't ask him to.

 

My statement was in response to someone who was spewing hate at God - taken in context that was the only response I can give - and I won't apologize for it.

 

I don't care who you were responding to-- if you post trash like this on a site for EX-CHRISTIANS, you can't expect that it will go unchallenged. The only purpose for such a statement was to try to make someone feel guilty.

 

So your "god" has been attacked-- big friggin deal. These days he is getting what he deserves. I suppose you would like to go back to the witch burning days where no one was able to openly criticize him.

[florduh]

Hello, Sonya.

 

I celebrate christmas with friends and family. Of course there is no religious connotation for me. "Christmas" never was about Christ until fairly recently and I don't feel hypocritical in the least about feasting, partying, and exchanging gifts with friends and family once a year. Since "Christmas" is part of the dominant culture here I just say Merry Christmas along with most everyone else, knowing what the occasion originally was observed for.

 

Also, please realize that many folks here are hurt and angry. Most of us are probably mad at ourselves for having been gullible. Some are maybe feeling contrite for having deceived others into a brainwashed existence when they were evangelizing in their pasts. I know I let myself be deceived a long time, and I have helped to deceive others. It's painful to finally realize the fallacies of the Bible when your family and friends have stopped thinking and firmly believe they know The Secret to existence. That makes one an outcast, to say the least. Atheists consistently poll as the most hated minority in these here God-fearin' United States, and if the polls had the right question, ex-Christians, though not necessarily atheists, might be even more reviled. So, please pardon our rudeness at times. This arena isn't the best choice for a missionary field. We've been there and seen it from the inside, with open eyes.

 

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,

Chris

[sonyaj68]

He loves you so much that He sent His son so die for you

 

Sonya,

 

Please explain why killing the finite meat form of an eternal diety that existed before and would exist after for eternity in heaven, is much of a "sacrifice". Even if you talk about the pain he endured, compared to eternity and being a diety with an eternal perspective, what is one day of pain and a few days "dead" really much of a sacrifice? How does one day of pain and a few days dead pay for billions of eternities in hell that are required payment by finite humans without an eternal perspective?

Why do you need me to explain it - you've heard it, understood it, accepted it and rejected it, so what difference would my explanation make to you?

 

 

 

It wouldn't make anymore difference than your continued presence here. I thought you might have an answer to the question or it might make you think.

I do have an answer but so do you - you've just rejected it; It is been made fairly clear to me thar you all are not interested in my explanatiohns, so I assumed (and still do) that your questioh was rhetorical

[sonyaj68]

He loves you so much that He sent His son so die for you

 

Sonya,

 

Please explain why killing the finite meat form of an eternal diety that existed before and would exist after for eternity in heaven, is much of a "sacrifice". Even if you talk about the pain he endured, compared to eternity and being a diety with an eternal perspective, what is one day of pain and a few days "dead" really much of a sacrifice? How does one day of pain and a few days dead pay for billions of eternities in hell that are required payment by finite humans without an eternal perspective?

Why do you need me to explain it - you've heard it, understood it, accepted it and rejected it, so what difference would my explanation make to you?

 

 

 

It wouldn't make anymore difference than your continued presence here. I thought you might have an answer to the question or it might make you think.

I do have an answer but so do you - you've just rejected it; It is been made fairly clear to me thar you all are not interested in my explanatiohns, so I assumed (and still do) that your question was rhetorical

[Kratos]

He loves you so much that He sent His son so die for you

 

Sonya,

 

Please explain why killing the finite meat form of an eternal diety that existed before and would exist after for eternity in heaven, is much of a "sacrifice". Even if you talk about the pain he endured, compared to eternity and being a diety with an eternal perspective, what is one day of pain and a few days "dead" really much of a sacrifice? How does one day of pain and a few days dead pay for billions of eternities in hell that are required payment by finite humans without an eternal perspective?

 

Madame,

 

You have hit upon one of the proofs that Christian Universalists use to show that the idea of an eternal Hell is not valid. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death and that Jesus died for our sins. If the wages of sin was indeed an eternaity in Hell, then Jesus would still be there and would be forever.

 

My family has not celebrated Christmas for over 15 years since we first learned that it was not a Christian holiday and was in fact the continuation of a pagan holiday. This has been hard on my wife and children, but we so wanted to only do what was Biblical. Since accepting the truth of the salvation of all, we are adding more participation so as to be more a part of the human community around us with no religious significance. Still no tree or gift giving or manger or wise men etc., but being more open to extended family functions to get along.

 

John

[GraphicsGuy]

so I assumed (and still do) that your questioh was rhetorical

 

No, as she said, the question was to make you think about your answer.

 

God creates heaven and angelic beings.

God creates Lucifer knowing he will fall and become Satan...evil incarnate. God created evil.

God creates the earth, Adam & Eve, throws Satan to the earth, etc.

God knows Adam & Eve will fall.

God tells them not to eat of a certain tree. Yet they had no way of knowing it was bad to disobey God in the first place.

Enter Satan that God threw to the earth in the first place. He could have thrown him on Mars, but nooooooooo.

God punishes Adam & Eve even though he knew they would fall.

God destroys earth with a flood, but saves 8 people so the process can be repeated again.

God picks a middle-eastern, patriarchal society to bring about his plan of redemption.

God tells the people to kill animals to cover their sin. - "You were bad, kill this sheep."

God tells these people to kill every nation/person that disagrees with him/them.

Fast-forward, God sends himself to earth as a baby.

The baby grows up. God teaches people about himself.

God allows the people to sacrifice his earthly body to himself so his earthly blood will cover the sin he himself created.

God raised his sacrificed body back to some kind of life and took himself to be with himself in heaven.

God then sent himself back to earth in spirit form to make his followers talk funny...or just to talk to themselves in strange ways.

God promised he would be back soon. "Soon" appears to always be "tomorrow."

When he comes back a bunch of weird shit is going to happen.

Everybody who believes the above scenario goes to some alternate dimension that's a utopia for mindless zombies who worship God for the rest of eternity.

Everybody who thinks the above scenario is bullshit gets barbequed for the rest of eternity...and apparently God likes the aroma.

Eventually, every believer will come back to this finite universe and somehow the natural laws will all be topsy turvy.

They'll never die, the sun will never go nova, and there will be a huge Borg cube floating over the earth where one of the versions of God has his throne.

Meanwhile, all the heathens are still roasting over an open fire.

 

...

...

...

 

Well, I'm convinced!

 

...

...

...

 

NOT!

[Grandpa Harley]

Kratos,

99% of the Christ myth is pagan. If you remove all the pagan trappings you're left with absolutely nothing... even the Sermon on the mount is from the Prayers of Aten,, which is Egyptian (since you seem steamingly ill informed about history) Same with the Lord's prayer. Egyptian. It's in the Book of the Dead...

 

As to the unilateral Grinchness... good job your domestic situation is set up as it is... nothing like being a misery for Jesus (which is a Pagan Greek version of the man's name... Nearest KJV English is Joshua...)

[Grandpa Harley]

I do have an answer but so do you - you've just rejected it; It is been made fairly clear to me thar you all are not interested in my explanatiohns, so I assumed (and still do) that your questioh was rhetorical

 

No, you're just a bible quoting moron who seems to think she has something to say us, but is finding that, really, we know the scriptures and origins thereof better than she. ATM, I still want to know why you are here...

[sonyaj68]

But actually, I have a question for you then, how does your family celebrate Christmas?

 

The biggest part of our Christmas celebration revolves around the "Living Christmas Tree" production. The whole family is involved and it takes up the first couple weeks of Dec. We also get together with some good friends and throw a big party every year - food, fun, games. We try to scale down on the gift buying but we don't always succeed We spend time with family that we don't normally see and we eat too much. We attend a Christmas Eve service at church We remind each other that we are celebrating His birth.

[sonyaj68]

He loves you so much that He sent His son so die for you

 

You should realize by now what kind of a reception that statement is going to get on this site. The guilt trip just doesn't work anymore, don't you realize that?

 

Even assuming Christ really existed, and in fact he was crucified, he died for himself alone. Even if he "died for me" I didn't ask him to.

 

My statement was in response to someone who was spewing hate at God - taken in context that was the only response I can give - and I won't apologize for it.

 

I don't care who you were responding to-- if you post trash like this on a site for EX-CHRISTIANS, you can't expect that it will go unchallenged. The only purpose for such a statement was to try to make someone feel guilty.

 

So your "god" has been attacked-- big friggin deal. These days he is getting what he deserves. I suppose you would like to go back to the witch burning days where no one was able to openly criticize him.

 

 

Absolutely not - I may not like what you say, but I will always support your right to say it. I don't see why me telling someone - an atheist at that - that God loved him so much that He sent His son to die for him would make him feel GUILTY That would be like you telline me Mickey Mouse built Disney World for me and was going to be mad if I didn't go. Since Mickey isn't real, I'm not going to be GUILTY for not sending in my RSVP to the head cheese.

[Unknowing1]

Since Mickey isn't real, I'm not going to be GUILTY for not sending in my RSVP to the head cheese.

 

He's actually more real than Jesus. There is actually a living breathing person inside that I can touch, talk to and that will actually answer me back. And no he's not going to be mad if you don't make that RSVP cause he ain't the vengeful type, he loves everyone. Even though I'm sure he hates it when kids pull on him and pee on him I've never seen or heard of him killing or doing anything bad to a kid because of it.

[Unknowing1]

We remind each other that we are celebrating His birth.

 

Why do you have to remind each other? I would think that would be first and foremost in your minds and that you would never forget it.

[Alice]

I do agree with you. I think my point was the bigger issue in my world is racism. That is a real problem that I'm faced with every single day. I believe I can say with sincerity that I am not a racist, but that I have tolerated racist attitudes, words, actions, etc. etc. and have made a strong stand against it in my home and in my world. I believe that the cause of racism - ignorance, hate, etc. - is the problem, and the symptoms will go away when the cause goes away. I agree that it is as wrong to hate someone because they are...say...a communist, or a muslim, or for any other reason...that is just as wrong as hating someone because they are of another race than me. What I was getting at is that those are not things I deal with on a daily basis. But I do agree with you whole-heartedly and feel that it is up to all of us to start now, first with ourselves and then with our children and with our scope of influence, and then through things bigger than ourselves, to CHANGE. If I ever think that I have it all figure out then I am certainly ignorant and there is no chance for growth and certainly a dim prospect for future generations.

 

Again you say some very hopeful things in this post, whilst at the same time you are coming out with some quite trite answers to other questions.

 

How someone behaves towards another is a good indication of how they view them. You recognise that it is 'wrong' to hate someone for being a communist or a muslim ... and yet you are worshipping a god who does just that. Can you not see that ignorance and hate is promoted by fundamentalist christianity ? You rightly recognise that if someone thinks they have it all figured out then they are certainly ignorant and there is no chance for growth and yet fundamentalism claims just that - to have the 'answer', to be the 'truth' and it promotes the idea of a future where all those who do not tick the right boxes for religious belief, irrespective of how loving, sincere or compassionate they are - will burn in hell for all eternity.

 

You seem to be thinking more about somethings you had previously taken as givens and this is a good thing - maybe you need to widen your scope a little?

[Jubilant]

Gramps, may I use your BRILLIANT summary list elsewhere? I promise to give YOU the credit. Pretty please with sugar on top?

[Grandpa Harley]

sure... which list?

[Alice]

Was it ...

 

bag of sugar

3lbs tomatoes

half dozen eggs (free range)

punnet of mushrooms

 

collect dry cleaning.

 

 

If it's the summary in this thread - you might be getting the credit for the one supplied by graphicsguy

[Grandpa Harley]

How did you know my dry cleaning needed collecting?

[Ouroboros]

Madame,

 

You have hit upon one of the proofs that Christian Universalists use to show that the idea of an eternal Hell is not valid. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death and that Jesus died for our sins. If the wages of sin was indeed an eternaity in Hell, then Jesus would still be there and would be forever.

 

My family has not celebrated Christmas for over 15 years since we first learned that it was not a Christian holiday and was in fact the continuation of a pagan holiday. This has been hard on my wife and children, but we so wanted to only do what was Biblical. Since accepting the truth of the salvation of all, we are adding more participation so as to be more a part of the human community around us with no religious significance. Still no tree or gift giving or manger or wise men etc., but being more open to extended family functions to get along.

 

John

 

Jesus as the sun is a pagan symbol too (the halo around his head in early depictions were also used for other sun gods - the halo represents the sun rays), or morning star (it's in Revelations I think, and that symbols was also Lucifer's in the OT). Death and rebirth is a very old pagan belief. The eucharist also from what I heard. Not everything about Jesus is similar to pagan beliefs, but plenty enough to know that Christianity got influences or similarities from pagan religion. I doubt you would be able to remove all of those "links". For instance, what about the magi being astrologers, seeing the birth of a king in the stars as they claimed they could do for other "great" kings? Kratos, start looking for the symbols in the Bible that correspond and are very similar to the pagan, astrology and other religious symbols, they're plenty.

[Alice]

Heathens roasting on an open fire

Demons nipping at their toes

Satan singing songs of the smiter

And folks being whipped like devil's hoes

 

That's brilliant! I want it to be Christmas so I can sing it to someone ...

[Jubilant]

Geesh, I misread this morning! LOL, it was GraphicsGuy...the *GRA* was the only thing that registered in my brain.

 

So, GraphicsGuy, may I post your brilliant list so long as I credit you?

[Kratos]

Madame,

 

You have hit upon one of the proofs that Christian Universalists use to show that the idea of an eternal Hell is not valid. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death and that Jesus died for our sins. If the wages of sin was indeed an eternaity in Hell, then Jesus would still be there and would be forever.

 

My family has not celebrated Christmas for over 15 years since we first learned that it was not a Christian holiday and was in fact the continuation of a pagan holiday. This has been hard on my wife and children, but we so wanted to only do what was Biblical. Since accepting the truth of the salvation of all, we are adding more participation so as to be more a part of the human community around us with no religious significance. Still no tree or gift giving or manger or wise men etc., but being more open to extended family functions to get along.

 

John

 

Jesus as the sun is a pagan symbol too (the halo around his head in early depictions were also used for other sun gods - the halo represents the sun rays), or morning star (it's in Revelations I think, and that symbols was also Lucifer's in the OT). Death and rebirth is a very old pagan belief. The eucharist also from what I heard. Not everything about Jesus is similar to pagan beliefs, but plenty enough to know that Christianity got influences or similarities from pagan religion. I doubt you would be able to remove all of those "links". For instance, what about the magi being astrologers, seeing the birth of a king in the stars as they claimed they could do for other "great" kings? Kratos, start looking for the symbols in the Bible that correspond and are very similar to the pagan, astrology and other religious symbols, they're plenty.

 

Hans,

 

I know that a lot of what you say is true. To those of us who believe in God, the search continues to separate the Word of God from the Bible by separating out what man has added through their own cuture through language and mythology so we gain the truth He wants us to embrace without trying to literalize the outer wrappings that those truths arrive in through their human delivery system. It, also, reveals the common ancestry of us all either directly from Adam or since Noah. Unless you believe that men evolved in many different places from lower apes and never had any contact with one another, common literary models and mythology should be expected. We do not believe that anything predates Adam in the garden with God so Jesus using similar words as is found in the Egyptian Book of the Dead does not prove that He read it as this would be highly unlikely for a Galilean carpenter, it just shows that we all share a common start so retain common ideas.

 

Of course, a non-believer would come to different conclusions from the evidence of commonality in ancient writings and that is to be expected.

 

John

[Grandpa Harley]

Evidence that Jesus was a carpenter? And I assume you know that the Greek translation (something that, using a your logic, a Palestinian chippy wouldn't know) cannot capture the whole trench of meanings in Aramaic (the language of the uneducated masses) that the 'original' words would have contained... There are, even by conservative estimates by Aramaic experts, 7 to the power 7 possible, equally viable readings of the Lord's prayer alone? (after Douglas-Klotz) that is 823543 possible alternative equally valid readings...

 

And you really can't beleive that the world is 6012 years old...

[GraphicsGuy]

So, GraphicsGuy, may I post your brilliant list so long as I credit you?

 

Oh certainly...quite flattering to be thought that it was smart enough to be from GH...

 

 

...

 

 

Madame M...Oh look! You caught the song reference!

 

Nicely written! Did you make all that up on the fly?

[Ouroboros]

I know that a lot of what you say is true. To those of us who believe in God, the search continues to separate the Word of God from the Bible by separating out what man has added through their own cuture through language and mythology so we gain the truth He wants us to embrace without trying to literalize the outer wrappings that those truths arrive in through their human delivery system. It, also, reveals the common ancestry of us all either directly from Adam or since Noah. Unless you believe that men evolved in many different places from lower apes and never had any contact with one another, common literary models and mythology should be expected. We do not believe that anything predates Adam in the garden with God so Jesus using similar words as is found in the Egyptian Book of the Dead does not prove that He read it as this would be highly unlikely for a Galilean carpenter, it just shows that we all share a common start so retain common ideas.

 

Of course, a non-believer would come to different conclusions from the evidence of commonality in ancient writings and that is to be expected.

John,

 

Question for you, it sounds like you say that you think that a lot of the stuff in the current Bible you have, was added afterwards and doesn't belong to the original? Like the reference I made before about the astrological and pagan symbols. Does this mean that you still are trying to figure out what the original Bible is supposed to be?

[Dhampir]

I know that a lot of what you say is true. To those of us who believe in God, the search continues to separate the Word of God from the Bible by separating out what man has added through their own cuture through language and mythology so we gain the truth He wants us to embrace without trying to literalize the outer wrappings that those truths arrive in through their human delivery system.

Wow. So god let his word get corrupted, specifically so that we could weed though it and discern the truth. That just makes it seem like an even more colossal waste of time.