2Bornot2B Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 Hi everyone. I have really been thinking about a lot of things recently and wanted to put it out here for the group to comment on and see if I can gain some insight from some of you. I have been reading a lot of stuff on this site and others, as well as starting to read Dawkins' new book: The God Delusion. As you can tell from the title, I consider myself to be a deist but the more I have thought and read I tend to think that I am more agnostic. According to Dawkins, this is all right because he figures that you will eventually become an de facto atheist. (He says that there are really no true atheists.) I have watched the PBS NOVA broadcast about intelligent design being on trial in Dover, PA, and I was amazed to see so much evidence to prove that id was not anything more than creationism. My thinking since I left Xtianity, has been that the bible, koran, etc is a bunch of bull shit but that there still had to be some sort of creator, designer, or "first cause" out there. When I look at it logically, it doesn't make sense that "god" would create the universe and then just leave it alone and not care what happens. Logic would dictate that if you made something, you would care how it turned out. So, you could be a spiritual deist, who believes in a personal god. But this doesn't make sense because if god was personal and did intervene, he is an asshole for allowing all the suffering to take place. So, if you follow my logic, the suffering proves that there is not a personal god; apathy would suggest that there is no god. So, I find myself at a crossroads: should I consider myself an atheist? I think that I would prefer to consider myself an agnostic because even the most ardent atheist would admit that there is really no way to prove that god does not exist. So, what are your thoughts about all this? I appreciate everyone's perspective. Thanks, Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 So, what are your thoughts about all this? I appreciate everyone's perspective. Thanks, Josh Well, it's like this, I consider myself part of "everyone" but I'm not sure you'll like my perspective. Thing is, I think there's more important things in life than deciding whether or not god exists, how the universe came into existence, or what happens when we die. There are very many different perspectives represented on these forums and I don't think anyone will tell you what to believe. You might want to explore the Ex-Christian Theism or Spirituality forum and see how that feels for you, if it fits. That's kind of what I did--experimented with various views until I found what fits me for now. Christianity wants a decision for Christ NOW. The pressure is off here. No need to commit to anything. Take your time. Explore, seek, try things out. Eventually you'll find what is right for you. And this may change over a lifetime as you grow and learn and change. Life does that to people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artur Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 I have a hard time defining "what" I am really. I totally don't believe *any* religion is even remotely close. But, humbly, I cannot "say" I know that no god or god-like force exists (you can't prove a negative). However, this does not believe I am *forced* to chose either. I chose the road of the walking question mark. I speculate, have theories, but I stand close guard over my mind and I don't "let" myself fall into belief categories, because IMO, it is like closing the door on thought. Since I *require* proof in order to *believe*, this puts me technically in the *atheist* camp. However, when asked IRL what I *am* I always say agnostic. Why? Because people tend to judge you immediately as close-minded. I am anything but. Besides, I have no religion to "spread" and no "faith" that needs support. It's nobodies business what I am, so agnostic keeps the heat off. I used to call myself a christian, even when I was not one, in order to fit in. I cannot do that anymore, it is just a lie and I cannot live a lie. In a odd way I am sort of agnostic. Though I don't "believe" most of my speculations include possiblities of "something" being out there, even though I *require* proof, it is not so great a lie, and it makes those in my world more comfortable with me then calling myself an atheist (which is far closer to the truth). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 I don't put pressure on myself to find a religious label. Over the last 10 years as I gradually came away from Christianity, I find myself attracted to some of the ideas in Hinduism and Buddhism. There are beautiful ideas and concepts for me there. This is a highly individual road. I think that the religious impulse is closely related to aesthetics. I am not willing for myself to throw all religion overboard but also respect those who decide they must. I accept the fact that for me it could be different next year and don't worry about it. The point is that now that you are free of dogmatic religion, you can explore with this freedom and see what ideas you find value in. If you decide that a personal god does not make sense, there are plenty of other ways of looking at what "god" is. I wouldn't worry about pinning it down. I can picture myself being admitted to the hospital and when they shove a form at me asking what my religion is --answer--very complicated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 So, what are your thoughts about all this? I appreciate everyone's perspective. Hey Josh, I am a lot like you right now. The only label that fits me the best right now is "ex-christian". My beliefs are pretty weird. I believe in deist principles and I also believe in pantheist principles. On my YouTube account, I have subscriptions to two gentlemen who study something called "synchromysticism", which is for the most part studying common links in all matters of popular culture and mass media. There are a few tenets of their belief system that I don't accept, but the spiritual and symbolic exploration is far more meaningful to me than anything put forth by other religious folks. Even further, I sometimes wonder if my conflicting beliefs make an agnostic or even a weak atheist. That is where I am at right now. Take the advice from the above-gathered users and forge your own journey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Bornot2B Posted December 28, 2007 Author Share Posted December 28, 2007 Thanks go out to those of you who have posted. I appreciate the wise advice and think that I will try and forge my own path and not try to so much label myself. Happy New Year to everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 I was a Deist for a while on my path to becoming agnostic. I think it's a step a lot of people take. As my profile says, my first step was becoming a liberal Christian, then a Universalist, then a Deist, then agnostic. If it weren't for my paranormal experiences, I'd be an atheist. If my paranormal experiences can someday without question be proven to be something other than what I would call spiritual, through scientific method, then I will happily become an atheist. Until then I remain happily and blissfully agnostic. ~Kelli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 I was a Deist for a while on my path to becoming agnostic. I think it's a step a lot of people take. As my profile says, my first step was becoming a liberal Christian, then a Universalist, then a Deist, then agnostic. If it weren't for my paranormal experiences, I'd be an atheist. If my paranormal experiences can someday without question be proven to be something other than what I would call spiritual, through scientific method, then I will happily become an atheist. Until then I remain happily and blissfully agnostic. ~Kelli Have paranormal experiences ever been disproved by science? If it had been, would I be seeing shows about the paranormal on SciFi Channel and A&E? Has "The Unexplained" remained unexplained? I've always wondered about these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 I was a Deist for a while on my path to becoming agnostic. I think it's a step a lot of people take. As my profile says, my first step was becoming a liberal Christian, then a Universalist, then a Deist, then agnostic. If it weren't for my paranormal experiences, I'd be an atheist. If my paranormal experiences can someday without question be proven to be something other than what I would call spiritual, through scientific method, then I will happily become an atheist. Until then I remain happily and blissfully agnostic. ~Kelli Have paranormal experiences ever been disproved by science? If it had been, would I be seeing shows about the paranormal on SciFi Channel and A&E? Has "The Unexplained" remained unexplained? I've always wondered about these things. I think that would be like disproving God or disproving fairies or Santa Claus. You can't disprove something you haven't got. However, scientific means has been found to artificially stimulate visions and other paranormal experiences. Michael Persinger, a behavioural neuroscientist of Laurentian University, Sudbury, Ontario, Canada has found a way to do this. Here is the website of one of his associates. It shows some techical stuff on how it's done, for those of you who are technically minded. There are also links to articles. There was a discussion on this at the Winter Solstice Event I attended a week ago, led by an evolutionary psychology professor. He seemed not to be totally sold on it but at the same time he seemed to be fairly confident that Persinger is onto something real. I think someone in the audience raised the topic. So why are you seeing shows of it in science fiction? Maybe because it sells? Maybe because Canada isn't all that important on world radar and this has been happening in Sudbury, of all places. Who even knows the place exists? let alone important discoveries coming out of it? Now if this had been happening at the University of California... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 I was a Deist for a while on my path to becoming agnostic. I think it's a step a lot of people take. As my profile says, my first step was becoming a liberal Christian, then a Universalist, then a Deist, then agnostic. If it weren't for my paranormal experiences, I'd be an atheist. If my paranormal experiences can someday without question be proven to be something other than what I would call spiritual, through scientific method, then I will happily become an atheist. Until then I remain happily and blissfully agnostic. ~Kelli I have had paranormal experiences as well kelli. However, I am still an atheist (technically) because these things that happened, though they cannot be explained, do not *prove* god. I have seen three ghosts in my life, that at the time, I pretty much *know* they were real ghosts. Two of them I talked to. However, they *never* mentioned god or the afterlife. And no, I am not so brave as to strike up a conversation with a ghost, all times they appeared I did not know they were ghosts at all. Funny, only thing they ever said was just how much they loved. One loved me, and missed me, the other loved and missed my mother. But neither said crap about god, and one of them *knew* I was a non-believer. I think if it were *sooo* important to believe, they would have mentioned something. Also, one of the ghosts was a dog... And they say animals don't have souls.... phoey! One of the humans was a non-believer too (so much for hell, he didn't look burnt up, nope, looked to be in a pretty good mood actually. I won't go into details of the stories, I have before in other threads, just being redundant. Also, I don't preclude the possiblity that somehow magically it was all in my head, I doubt it, but that's possible I guess. I also had a *proven* (to me only, but proof non-the-less) telapathic experience as a young man. Non of these things prove god to me, but they *do* prove there is more then meets the eye out there, but as far as a god, well... seems like one of them might have mentioned it... If you read ghost stories on the web, the ones that ring true, none of them show any interaction with god either. I can spot real vs fake ghost stories having had a few experiences, I refer to them, not the "Virgin Mary" sightings and the like. I might be the only atheist in the world that has seen ghosts and is still atheist... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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