Need Input

[Vigile]

I'm a bit pissed off at the moment so am hoping to get some input from you guys before I open my big mouth and stir the trouble pot.

 

My brother and his xian fiance are visiting us for a few weeks. My brother is a fairly carefree xian who doesn't think about it much. She, OTH, is a raving fundy lunatic.

 

I'll spare the details and get to the offense:

 

We gave them our living room to stay in while they are here, which has a fold out sofa and chair for sleeping. Today I discovered that she created a vestige to her faith on our bookshelf over the TV. She put up her bible, several pictures, a lamb, etc... Essentially she decorated our living room like a xian grandma decorates her house.

 

WTF! They know I'm an atheist. What if I went to her house and put up a pentagram and a picture of a sacrificed goat?

 

Bottom line, I find this highly offensive. I'm seething over it. Yet, I'm not sure I want to blow up over this and ruin family relations into the future over it.

 

Since you guys are more emotionally separated from this situation, how would you handle it objectively?

[Deva]

Visiting for a few weeks? Such an affront could be tolerated perhaps if it were a matter of days, but for such a long period of time--I think you must say something to your brother about it. Hopefully he can get the message through to her in a nonconfrontational way. Would it help (as a compromise), if these items were placed in a less prominent place? As it is, it seems like she deliberatly wanted to place these silly, meaningless objects right in front of your face.

 

It is highly disrespectful, especially since they knew you were an atheist and its in your home. I am even wondering if she hopes to convert you!

 

It would be like me setting up a statue of Kali in my fundamentalist parents' home.

[Alice]

If she had propped up a novel she was really into and some photographs - one of her favourite Grandma and another of her with her two closest girlfriends I'm guessing you wouldn't have minded. And if you'd had a guest bedroom rather than needing to share a living space maybe even less.

 

From a general courtsey point of view, I would maybe unpack a couple of special pictures if I was staying in a guest bedroom, but I wouldn't do it if I was staying in a living room on a sofa bed. I wouldn't ever dream of putting up pictures that depicted something I knew went against the beliefs of the househld I was staying in so at the very least she appears to be thoughtless and possibly rude. - although this isn't necessarily the case.

 

I think this is about intent isn't it? Do you have a sense of what she intended by this?

 

There are all manner of possibilities, she maybe feels so comfortable, so accepted and so welcome in your home that she has relaxed into behaving as if it were her home ... they could just be the little touches of home that make her feel able to sleep. (Some people take a few things that are special to them and arrange them in hotel rooms)

 

She could be making a confrontational statement and hoping to get right up your nose ...

 

She could be scared the demons of atheism might get her and have staked out a safe and holy sanctury for her soul's protection ....

 

OK - so maybe I'm being a little over the top in my suggestions ... but anyone might be the case!!

 

I'd give some time to working out her intent - because this will be useful to you if she is going to be a long term fixture in the family but my advice - whatever her intent would be the same ... let it go.

 

If you can separate off your strong feelings it could be appropriate to ask her about it - from a curiosity point of view - but if she knows it has irritated you there are likely to be unhappy conseqences for relationships. Better only to talk religion with family members or almost family members only when the relationship is strong enough to survive a disagreement.

 

The book and the pictures in and of themselves are powerless - as is her intent - unless you allow them to be.

[RankStranger]

I think Alice gives damn good advice as usual. Maybe you should think of it as a monument to her own insecurity?

 

You've every reason to be pissed... but you've to to pick your battles. In that situation, I don't think I'd pick that one.

[SWIM]

Wel, since it is your brother's fiance, maybe politely ask her to take it down, in FRONT of your brother. Why? Well, if she has a self-rightous melt-down, you will have given your brother a nice little "pre-vue" as to what happens when you disagree with her, might teach him something he didn't know about her.

 

Tell her the "items" don't offend you, it's the lack of consideration. Ask her if he were a muslem, would she be OK with an alter to Allah in her living room? Then go into listening mode, not fighting mode. Let your brother soak it in.

 

You might be doing him the biggest favor of his life. Since it is only just a fiance, he may very well *need* to see how she reacts.

 

As far as you are concerned, be calm polite, but firm. Make her take it down diplomatically. Confront HER not him, but do it in front of him.

 

Look at it this way, a GREAT opportunity has just presented itself. You can expose how tolerant/intolerant she is based on this.

 

edit: BTW you are setting the bar right now. If you let this happen now, it sets a standard for the future.

[Vigile]

I think this is about intent isn't it? Do you have a sense of what she intended by this?

 

It's not just a couple of pics and a bible. She actually moved my wife's decorations and took over an entire 3' x 1' shelf and created a "Jesus" shelf. If she was Buddhist, it would be like a personal worship temple. If I could find my camera I'd post a pic, but we just moved and it's packed away somewhere.

[SWIM]

I think this is about intent isn't it? Do you have a sense of what she intended by this?

 

It's not just a couple of pics and a bible. She actually moved my wife's decorations and took over an entire 3' x 1' shelf and created a "Jesus" shelf. If she was Buddhist, it would be like a personal worship temple. If I could find my camera I'd post a pic, but we just moved and it's packed away somewhere.

 

 

Nip it at the bud my friend, I shit you not, it will only get worse. Think of it as if you are all dogs, you don't "mark your territory" on your neighbors tree, don't let them either.

[Vigile]

but if she knows it has irritated you there are likely to be unhappy conseqences for relationships

 

Yes, I agree. That's why I asked for advice here as I'm in the "It's the principle of the matter mode," yet I'm still mature enough (hopefully) to swallow it up while I'm still feeling the initial emotions. I don't want to create a long term feud here. But, I don't want her to think she can walk on my wishes and feelings either.

 

I'm leaning toward just keeping my feelings to myself for one reason. My brother. He is a sweet, shy guy. He wouldn't hurt a fly and wouldn't want to ever offend anyone. It would hurt his feelings if I make an issue of this.

 

As for the girl he picked. Without getting into details, this was the third strike. I'll keep it to myself, but I thank the stars or whatever that she will be living half way across the globe.

[SWIM]

Yes, I agree. That's why I asked for advice here as I'm in the "It's the principle of the matter mode," yet I'm still mature enough (hopefully) to swallow it up while I'm still feeling the initial emotions. I don't want to create a long term feud here. But, I don't want her to think she can walk on my wishes and feelings either.

 

You might end up with a long term feud if you do nothing...

 

I'm leaning toward just keeping my feelings to myself for one reason. My brother. He is a sweet, shy guy. He wouldn't hurt a fly and wouldn't want to ever offend anyone. It would hurt his feelings if I make an issue of this.

 

Take him off to the side alone, and explain to him that it's the principle of the situation, it's the "spirit" of dis-respect that gets you. Give him a choice, either you tell her to take it down or I do. (in a diplomatic way of course).

 

As for the girl he picked. Without getting into details, this was the third strike. I'll keep it to myself, but I thank the stars or whatever that she will be living half way across the globe.

 

Don't you want to save him from yet another bad marriage? It's only his "soon to be", so do him a favor, let the leopard show it's spots for him, better now then 5 years from now...

[Vigile]

Mike, I agree with what you are saying. Unfortunately, my brother is in the throws of love right now and he is just not going to be able to see my side for a while; later, yes. Now, no. Since they've been here I've already been making him miserable whispering in his ear about her asking him to tell her to keep her things picked up, etc... It hurts his feelings, but if it becomes a direct confrontation, he is just going to get defensive and will necessarily side with her in the state that he is currently in.

 

As much as she has offended me, she is probably not a bad match for him. They are both simple people from small towns. My wife and I just have a much broader span of horizons from which we view our world than they do. As much as it bugs the shit out of me, I think I have to let this offense go - and it is a shitty offense.

 

Here's what I did. On the shelf above, my wife put her buddha and I put up three books: Critical Thinking Skills, Why People Believe in Weird Things, and How We Know It Isn't So. It'll get my message across that I don't appreciate their little display without causing us to all walk on egg shells in the future.

 

The truth of the matter is, we are already soooo different from my family that I have nothing to hang a relationship on other than history and good will. My family are all good people and I love them. I don't want to damage that even if we don't have more in common anymore.

[Legion]

Here's what I did. On the shelf above, my wife put her buddha and I put up three books: Critical Thinking Skills, Why People Believe in Weird Things, and How We Know It Isn't So. It'll get my message across that I don't appreciate their little display without causing us to all walk on egg shells in the future.

Oh, I just think that's priceless Vigile.

[1oddmanout]

Here's what I did. On the shelf above, my wife put her buddha and I put up three books: Critical Thinking Skills, Why People Believe in Weird Things, and How We Know It Isn't So. It'll get my message across that I don't appreciate their little display without causing us to all walk on egg shells in the future.

 

That sounded like the best way to handle it - but a picture of the sacrificed goat and a pentagram wouldn't have hurt.

[Vigile]

Here's what I did. On the shelf above, my wife put her buddha and I put up three books: Critical Thinking Skills, Why People Believe in Weird Things, and How We Know It Isn't So. It'll get my message across that I don't appreciate their little display without causing us to all walk on egg shells in the future.

 

That sounded like the best way to handle it - but a picture of the sacrificed goat and a pentagram wouldn't have hurt.

 

If they pray over New Year's dinner tonight I'm doing a rain dance.

[Alice]

Here's what I did. On the shelf above, my wife put her buddha and I put up three books: Critical Thinking Skills, Why People Believe in Weird Things, and How We Know It Isn't So. It'll get my message across that I don't appreciate their little display without causing us to all walk on egg shells in the future.

 

The truth of the matter is, we are already soooo different from my family that I have nothing to hang a relationship on other than history and good will. My family are all good people and I love them. I don't want to damage that even if we don't have more in common anymore.

 

I love what you did!!

 

We have bookshelves that run the full length of our lounge floor to ceiling. A couple of days before Christmas, when we put up our other Christmas decorations, we cleared off a shelf and used it as a space for a crib scene. I know other people might find my continued use of a crib scene a little weird - but for me it's a family heirloom passed down to me from my grandmother and I display it at Christmas for sentimental reasons ... this year my son arranged it and then noticed that above it were a number of books that detailed our gradual deconversion - from a few questioning christian books through to the God Delusion, although they were initially there by accident we did rearrange them so that the God Delusion was right in the centre right above the manager. At the last minute, just before my Mother arrived I took it out again and put it on a different shelf ... because I didn't want her to think I'd done it confrontationally.

 

Again, with family relationships it comes down to intent ...

 

The fiance really does sound incredibly rude - moving her hosts belongings to create a shrine is almost unbelievable.

 

An unconnected story in many ways - just about the difficulties of families with different priorities sharing the same space followed by an observation. My Mother used to have a silent feud with my Grandmother over a photograph that was displayed in my Grandmother's house. My uncle is a photographer and took a fairly famous photograph of a nude model leaping over a puddle on a beach. My parents were horrified by nude photography in the first instance and it was further complicated (1) by the reflection in the puddle (2) by the fact my uncle left his wife to live with model.

 

Whenever we visited my Grandmother, my Mother would quietly move a vase in front of the photograph - presumably so we children would not be corrupted by its influence. As soon as my Grandmother noticed - she would move the vase back again. They never spoke about it but they drew attention to the picture BIG time.

 

My observation - when my Grandmother visited my home she never tampered with our religious iconography or symbols, she didn't cover up photographs of people she didn't like - nor did she walk around naked ...

[Vigile]

Alice noted that perhaps she created the display as a protection against the evil she perceives. That's probably pretty accurate. She refuses to drink as she told me "xians don't drink." When I challenged her, she got quiet. Anyway, since it is the holidays, we have been drinking a bit every day in front of her. My brother drinks, but has not because of her (big problem I think, but it's his biz).

 

BTW, she is a Russian. Long story, but my brother met her online and came over here to meet her. Unusual and risky, but it is what it is. He probably did so because he was lonely and he knows my wife well and likes her a lot so felt comfortable finding a Russian gal for himself.

 

150M Russians; 99% non or barely religious, and he finds a Baptist one.

[Vigile]

New development:

 

The books I put up were taken down. WTF?

 

This chick is seriously nuts. Here's a couple of anecdotes: I was talking to her about films and asked her if she liked Pretty Woman. "No. It's about prostitutes."

 

Her pajamas had something spilled on them so my brother offered her a pair of shorts to wear. She wouldn't because she can't show her legs in front of my brother and I.

 

Fucking taliban loon.

 

I'm keeping my mouth shut for my brother's sake, but I have no good feelings about this situation.

[Japedo]

 

I'd be pissed too!

 

 

My bother in law who is a Baptist pastor with a tribe of kids came over to my house one time quite a few years ago. He stood in *MY* kitchen and told us all to hold hands and get in a circle we were praying.

 

I said, we don't pray.. It was way back when I was studying Judaism and was seriously contemplating converting. I had learned that it was better not to pray then to pray wrong, I had very strong convictions about it.. but I digress.

 

He ignored me and told *MY* Children to get into the circle they were praying before they ate the pizza my husband and I bought and paid for. It was the principle of the matter, I would never dream of going into someone else's house and demand they and their children follow my belief regardless if they liked it or not. I said "Fuck this, NO!" and started folding laundry. My husband had the audacity to be pissed at me and claim *I* was the one being rude and I was embarrassing him. I find it funny that the only one who's considered rude is the one that refuses to comply to the Christian Nazis who think anyone not compling to their demands, joining in (even if you're faking it), disrupts or hinders their freedom of worship. Even if they are in YOUR OWN HOUSE! WTF!!!

 

 

My BIL and his wife ended up going outside on the grass with their kids and praying. It was years sense I had seen either one of them. My Bil and Sil came last summer alone and invited my husband, children and myself to the local cult room of brain washing.. Ooops I mean Church. I walked off with out answering my husband went without the kids.

 

If I were you Vigile there would be no way I could hold my tongue, just no way. The longer I was forced to pretend it didn't bother me the more I'd steam and more likely a huge eruption would occur. The Xtians really have no fucking clue about the "Do unto others" like they say.. It's all and always will be about what they want, if you don't let them brow beat you into submission, well... you're just an agent of the dark one anyway and god will triumph.. They are praying for you....

[Deva]

New development:

 

The books I put up were taken down. WTF?

 

I'm keeping my mouth shut for my brother's sake, but I have no good feelings about this situation.

 

Wow. Your reasonable and creative attempt at a compromise was rudely thrown back in your face. Looks like she is now trying to force a confrontation. This is your home. This xian "shrine" is going to be there for several weeks. I have to admit this would totally run me to the end of my patience and abilities for tolerance. If you can maintain your composure without blowing up, kudos to you, but if it were me, I would have to say something.

[Vigile]

If I were you Vigile there would be no way I could hold my tongue, just no way. The longer I was forced to pretend it didn't bother me the more I'd steam and more likely a huge eruption would occur.

 

That's what it's building to. I'm hoping I can keep it together as I have in the past blown up and pissed off a few friends after something like this built up.

 

She had the audacity to tell me that I still believe in my heart if not my brain. I laughed and told her that I find her religion utterly immoral and that I can believe in it as easily as she can believe in Santa again.

[Vigile]

Well, if I do say something, I'm going to hold it until after NY at least. I don't want to ruin the night for everone.

[♦ nivek ♦]

"My Home, my (rules) desires, please."

 

If that creative book setting won't let the dumbass chick get message gently, then remind Bro that "Man is head of household (his), and that biblically the chixx is his to order about and rule and all that shit."

 

Ask Bro to have his woman lay off your shit. If not when they are together, hand them the key to a motel room and send them on their fucking way..

 

Hate to be a total bastard, well more than usual Vig, but fukit, it is you and your wife's home, not some fuckin' flophouse where Baptistnutchixx is free to fool around with your gear..

 

It may not be worth it *now*, but you allow this breach of conduct it'll get nothing but emboldened and worse.

 

kL

[Rhia]

Sacrifice the lamb!!!!!!!!!

[sojourner]

I am blown away reading this thread. Are you sure she is not just trying to get citizenship with your brother? Reading this makes me think she might just be pretending and going on some kind of information she read about fundamentalism. I would really probe her and challange her in her religious beliefs and see if there is any real structure there or a false pretense.

 

I may be confused came back to edit, where is your brother coming from?

 

I mean who the heck doesnt show their legs?

 

sojourner

[white_raven23]

It's your living room.

 

She moved your stuff once to make room for crap you don't believe in.

 

You responded with art and considerably more tact that was deserved.

 

Then she moved your stuff...AGAIN.

 

Helloooo?

 

Move her stuff now.

 

Set up a little night table beside the couch on the side where she sleeps. Put her stuff on it. Make like you are doing her a favor. Her own little table. So no one has to worry about her treasures getting accidentally broken. You'd feel sooo terrible if something fell while you were trying to get a book. It would be such a shame.

 

 

And Don't leave that shelf empty! Put your wife's decorations BACK.

If she's really stupid, and moves her stuff back again.....oops! Accidents might start happening!

[Purple]

It's your living room.

 

She moved your stuff once to make room for crap you don't believe in.

 

You responded with art and considerably more tact that was deserved.

 

Then she moved your stuff...AGAIN.

 

Helloooo?

 

Move her stuff now.

 

Set up a little night table beside the couch on the side where she sleeps. Put her stuff on it. Make like you are doing her a favor. Her own little table. So no one has to worry about her treasures getting accidentally broken. You'd feel sooo terrible if something fell while you were trying to get a book. It would be such a shame.

 

 

And Don't leave that shelf empty! Put your wife's decorations BACK.

If she's really stupid, and moves her stuff back again.....oops! Accidents might start happening!

 

 

I agree, and what does your wife feel about this?? I'd be PISSED if some woman came into my home and started redecorating my stuff. The first shelf, I was all for the lets not upset things line of reasoning, but now?? Oh fuck her.