Need Input

[Neon Genesis]

I also have to agree that you should tell her to stop with this crap already. Taking down your family's own personal possesions and replacing it with their own crap is just annoying and disrepectful to the hosts. It would be like me going to my cousin's house and taking down all their Christian stuff and replacing it with anti-Christian material just because of my beliefs. Even though I felt annoyed having to see random Christian material in every other room of the house when we went to my cousin's for Christmas, I didn't go around moving it like I pleased and replacing it with my own stuff because it wasn't my house to do so. As silly as I thought it was, it was their house and they can do with it what they want. Christians should likewise show the same courtesy to other people's property.

 

Forget the religious-related part of this, it's rude for anyone to go to someone's house and randomly start moving any of their stuff around without permisison from the hosts because it's your private property, not theirs. Perhaps if you don't want to bring religion into the discussion, you can explain to your brother's wife that it's disrespectful to go around touching other people's belongings without their permission? If she has a problem with respecting other people's belongings, then maybe ask her if she would like it if you did that to her place and belongings and explain to her that she isn't being very Christ-like with the whole do unto others thing?

[RankStranger]

New development:

 

...

 

I'm keeping my mouth shut for my brother's sake, but I have no good feelings about this situation.

 

I'd probably have let it go the first time, and I think you did well to wait and think on it before reacting. But this is over the top. I wouldn't let it go. I think, at a minimum, you owe it to your brother to have a serious discussion with him. But Nivek's suggestion would be appropriate about now, too... depending on what you're trying to accomplish.

[Mythra]

Here's what I did. On the shelf above, my wife put her buddha and I put up three books: Critical Thinking Skills, Why People Believe in Weird Things, and How We Know It Isn't So. It'll get my message across that I don't appreciate their little display without causing us to all walk on egg shells in the future.

 

That is SO much more diplomatic than what I would have done. Particularly given the nature of the offense - knowing full well that she was coming to stay in the home of an atheist.

 

My approach would have involved the religious relics, gasoline, and a match in the backyard.

 

A little New Year's Eve bonfire.

 

If she's gonna see you as satanically inspired, you might as well play along with the gag.

 

Truthfully, though - if it were my house, the discussion would be pretty short:

 

"My house - my rules. Take your shit and put it away, or get the fuck out".

 

But, I have a very low tolerance for such bullshit.

[ShackledNoMore]

Wow, I just read this thread. It was in poor taste for her to build her shelf in the first place, but you responded with tact. Her second step just went TOO far. This is YOUR house she defiled, not her own. She has NO right to pull such a power play in your house. And suppose you were as over the top as her, only for some competing religion? You'd have a holy war going on. We all know this, of course, so now it boils down to what you'll do next: you're a reasonable person, but her antics are intolerable. I almost wonder how simple a person she is, being an over the top xian in a country that is 99% secular--she certainly wasn't the victim of constant brainwashing. I am a pretty non confrontational person, but I could not tolerate this either. I think if I were in your shoes, I'd unleash my tongue, too.

[Amethyst]

You invited her to your home as a guest, correct? She is not behaving as a guest would, she is behaving as though it is her house and not yours. That is, IMO, extremely rude.

 

I personally would not let a relative live in my apartment for that length a time, unless they had literally no other place to go. My rental clause specifically won't allow me to do such things anyway, so I have a good excuse not to. But I also live in a one-bedroom, and a cheap futon does not sound comfortable to most people. To be honest, I rarely use it myself.

 

Anyway, if it were me? I would do my best to tactfully and diplomatically resolve the situation. I would speak to the brother and ask him to please get the fiance' to stop being disrespectful. I might give her a box to put her things in. But if she refused and kept redecorating, I would ask them politely to find someplace else to stay where they can redecorate to their hearts' content.

[Astreja]

Wow, what an ugly mess...

 

If a friend came to town to visit me, and needed a quiet corner to practice whatever the heck they practiced, I'd probably find them a quiet corner where they could meditate, pray, or spin around till they fell down dizzy giggling. (And if it looked like fun I might even try it myself.)

 

But moving your stuff and installing her own, without asking, is a deal-breaker IMO.

[Mongo]

At some level inside me I feel we ought to behave better than fundys since we're not bedeviled. We're free to see without the prejudice of religion.

 

Assuming that your asking for advice is a plea to understand what would be a better way than calling her a fouled up bitch... one wonders what role the compassion and forgiveness, that xtians are incapable, has in this situation.

 

Which of you is wearing blinders? You or her?

 

Are you not angry at a loss of control? Is this something you **need** to control?

 

You could use it as an object lesson - assuming you get a grip let the anger go - and simply open a dialog about it.

 

I let people pray at my dinner table. I ask them if they would like to do that without being participatory... "You're welcome to pray if you like?"

 

Eventually... I might begin to have the courage to ask simple but poignant questions like, "Do you believe Jesus actually changes the food when he *blesses* it?" and have an engaging conversation rather than a battle of wits and will.

 

In the mean time I tell my brother in law that I can't put up with Pat Robertson on the TV. I think I add the phrase "In front of the kids." to suggest he is no better than smut. A mini-shrine, on the other hand would be... funny compared to Robertson (that's serious shit to me).

 

As to your brother... pity him and hope he sees the light.

 

Ultimately, its about the relationships and how one should live in respect of others and treat them decently including compassion, forgiveness and love.

 

So I've set a bar clearly higher than fundy morality.

 

What do you think?

 

Mongo

[white_raven23]

So I've set a bar clearly higher than fundy morality.

 

What do you think?

 

Mongo

 

 

The high road is a wonderful ideal Mongo. The only problem comes from the fact that this person REMOVED the decorations Vigile's wife had....on a WHOLE shelf to make way for her stuff. This wasn't a guest bedroom, it's the living room.

 

And it's not even about religion either, though because it is a touchy issue, Vigilge kinda (and understandably) handled it with kid gloves.

 

What if it hadn't been religious shit?

 

Decorating takes time. You put something in it's place....stand back to see how everything is balanced, them place the next item. I don't give a damn what this bitch put on the shelf, she had to remove the decorations (that were not hers) in order to do it in the first place.

 

If I offered my living room futon to someone (which I've done), in no way does a reasonable human (which this bitch isn't) guest of mine assume that the liberty offered of sleep space extend to any of my shelves. If I came out of my bedroom to find the contents of my fantasy shelf (where Harry Potter, Tolkien and the Narnia series reside) stacked on the floor and replaced by my guests Rolling Stones cds... I would be pissed. I'd be asking them if I could go over to their house and move their shit around seeing as they clearly saw fit to do with mine.

 

That's another thing Vigile.....where did this bitch put your wife's decorations? The one's she moved to put up her asses shrine in the first place? Did she just put them on the floor? Arrange them around the room? What?

 

I think I'd be slightly tolerant if she'd arranged them around the room. Respect my decorations enough to at least do that....but if my dragon statues are just set on a section of floor to get out of your way.... hope you didn't bother unpacking.

[Japedo]

Which of you is wearing blinders? You or her?

 

Are you not angry at a loss of control? Is this something you **need** to control?

 

You could use it as an object lesson - assuming you get a grip let the anger go - and simply open a dialog about it.

 

I let people pray at my dinner table. I ask them if they would like to do that without being participatory... "You're welcome to pray if you like?"

 

Mongo,

 

The situation here isn't about one asking and the other saying no. Had the rude person asked in the first place it would be different subject here. The whole point is their failure to ask and the brass balls to take it upon themselves to make a shrine in a home where they know the hosts are non-believers. Respect is a one way street with the mentality of some of these people. Why should a person be railroaded in their own house? I don't see it as a power play in the least by the owner of the home. I don't mind people praying in my house either, I draw the line when they demand I and my family join in. I don't think Vigile gives a shit if she wants to read the bible or have her book int he living room or something, but taking an entire unit of the wall to make an alter is way way way over the line of reason. I am dumbfounded that these believers have it on gods authority to move, remove, and place things as if it's their own house, and to hell with what the owners/hosts think.

 

I'm sorry but a person's home is absolutely off limits to change or rearrange anything. Things shouldn't be touched at all out of pure respect for the hosts home, I don't care who or where you are. It would be different if said guest removed something out of reach of a small child or something but that isn't the case here.

 

If vigiles home is so offensive to her she can go pay for a room elsewhere, Her Demanding Vigile and his wife conform to make her happy is outrageous and beyond bad and unacceptable manners and she needs to be told she crossed major lines. There is no "loss of control here" it's a matter of principle and just how far one should be pushed in their own home. This christian women like most self-centered zealots believe they can do what ever they want, where ever they want and if you dare speak out against them you're a godless sinful bastard who hates and enjoys persecuting Christians.

[Vigile]

First off I need to apologize. I believe I overreacted when I was giving a situation update. I put up books and an Indian Buddha display. The books I propped up were laying down when I checked later and I initially thought that she was offended by them and put them down. On further reflection, and my wife's calmer explanation, I think she or he just looked at the books and carelessly put them back.

 

Second bit of misinfo I gave. My wife informs me that the shelf was empty before she decorated it. We just moved so I didn't know. Sorry.

 

Putting up the display was rude and thoughtless of her, but both my wife and I agree, that's all it was. I still think she is a fundy taliban nut, but I don't think she intended to make an affront. I think she is a just very, very oblivious and deluded person.

 

As to your brother... pity him and hope he sees the light.

 

I do. Last night we asked him if he would drink champagne for NY. He refused, though he sees nothing wrong with drinking. I told him that he needs to have a talk with her and lay down who he is. He can't change his behaviors to not offend her beliefs and remain a happy person. He said, yeah, I know, but I'm not ready. I'm not sure he ever will be until he is ready to explode, and for that I pity him. It's not good getting into this kind of commitment if you don't have any real communication and understanding from the start. That gooey love feeling that makes him want to please isn't going to last forever.

 

But, I can't live his life for him.

 

We have decided to let the offense go for now, but we will ask her to take it down when we have a party here next week. My wife and I have concluded that they just come from a different class, a different paradigm, and a smaller world than we do. What things mean to us don't mean the same to them. If I get belligerent and demand rights here, I may keep my pride, but will really hurt my brother in the process. If it was just her I wouldn't give a shit. My brother is a good guy and I don't want to hurt him so I guess I need a bigger offense that is more intentional before I make a big issue.

 

I really appreciate everyone's input here. I found myself nodding my head in agreement with every single post. Some solutions offered here would certainly be much more self satisfying than the one my wife and I finally agreed upon. But in the end I think I have to take the initial advice from Alice and as Isk put it, pick my battles. They will only be here another week and after that it may be years before I see them again.

[Unknowing1]

New development:

 

Her pajamas had something spilled on them so my brother offered her a pair of shorts to wear. She wouldn't because she can't show her legs in front of my brother and I.

 

But she can sleep in the same room with him? I thought that was frowned upon in fundyville.

 

Your brother appears to be in for it if they get married.

[Vigile]

New development:

 

Her pajamas had something spilled on them so my brother offered her a pair of shorts to wear. She wouldn't because she can't show her legs in front of my brother and I.

 

But she can sleep in the same room with him? I thought that was frowned upon in fundyville.

 

Your brother appears to be in for it if they get married.

 

It's even more bizzare than that. They can't keep their hands off each other. She sits on his lap and kisses him right in front of my wife and I. It's really, really uncomfortable. I don't feel like it's my job to teach people how to be good guests, but WTF? I have a hard time believing they aren't fucking, but she told my wife they are not.

 

My wife tells me that no Russian guy would ever accept this girl as she is too weird with her religion and her habits. Only a shy, lonely, xian guy like my brother could put up with her.

[Alice]

Vig,

 

just wanted to say that I think you handled things so well - it is SO difficult when these kind of situations arise in your own home and you have the added tension that comes from feeling that your brother is making a big mistake.

 

My own sister is such a hard line fundamentalist she belongs to a little sect that most fundamentalists would find it hard to cope with. I cope by spending as little time with her as possible - which is sad in so many ways. In fact, I have never stayed in her home (I have visited once in twenty years and that ended in a god almighty row) and she has only stayed with us once. She once hit my younger foster sister (whom I love dearly) over the head with her big black Bible and her and her husband's behaviour in my parents home (bear in mind my Dad was a Vicar) has been mindblowing in the past (they once vacated themselves from an afternoon of Christmas Day game playing because it also happened to be Sunday and apparently it's wicked to play games on the Sabbath) ... however over the years we have found an uneasy peace and they simply no longer join in with things they would have to object to and they have softened a bit with age. I wish I had it in me to be nicer to her.

 

I hope you had an enjoyable new year despite your house guest from hell!

 

(We travelled into London - something I've wanted to do for years ... to promises that the sound of big ben would be relayed along the embankment so that if you were quite a way from the eye of the millenium wheel you could still join in the countdown ..before enjoying the million pound firework display ... that would (we were promised) be visible from anywhere you could see the wheel.

 

The relaying didn't work ... and after two minutes of seeing the fireworks a cloud of gunpowder smoke floated down the Thames, so thick it completely oblitereated the rest of the display from view. I mean completely blocked it out. It sounded like a great display and it looked good on the TV but we saw nothing!! ... then we had to get in Blackfriars tube station with three hundred thousand other people at the same time ... Happy New Year!)

 

On her sexual behaviour - she sure sounds like a husband hunter. Don't pop the lock till you've got the rock....

[Llwellyn]

 

One thing that occurred to me is that if she is Russian, it may be part of her religious culture to have a "prayer wall" or a "mediation shrine." Typically, it includes icons, tryptics, candles and incense. I know that you said she was Baptist and not Russian Orthodox, but she may have been recently converted to Protestantism, and her grandmother and parents might be Eastern Orthodox. Perhaps your SIL is trying to make herself more at home and comfortable, having a place to pray? Here is an Eastern Orthodox prayer wall, which is standard in the home of every observant Orthodox Christian:

 

[dr_funkenstein]

If it were me, I would have simply put all her things in a bag and handed it to her, saying "As these items belong to you, I've refrained from destroying them, but if you wouldn't mind, I'd like an apology for your having set up a shrine in the central room of my home without first checking with me. I found it deeply offensive and I'm shocked that you could have been so thoughtless."

[Robbobrob]

And I can hear my wife's aunt singing in the background, "Happy Holidays"

 

She is going to make his life miserable, because the sitting on his lap will end, but the crazy fundy mentality won't.

[GraphicsGuy]

She is going to make his life miserable, because the sitting on his lap will end, but the crazy fundy mentality won't.

 

Ain't that the truth! As soon as he does something that pisses her off or if he unintentionally hurts her in some way she's going to hold back all physical contact. She'll "give in" to sex since the Bible basically tells her to do that at least, but she'll hold back.

 

Okay, maybe I'm assuming too much that she's like my ex, but I agree with Robbobrob. The fun physicality will end when the butterflies flutter away and then the fundamentalist oppression will kick in.

 

Your bro is in for a shit-kicking.

[Vigile]

And I can hear my wife's aunt singing in the background, "Happy Holidays"

 

She is going to make his life miserable, because the sitting on his lap will end, but the crazy fundy mentality won't.

 

Yup. That's my read on the situation as well. My brother is what could probably be described as an omega male. She is a closet alpha female. I'm not liking how this thing is going down at all.

 

I've had to ask him several times to tell her to keep her things picked up around the house as it really bugs my wife who is a neat freak. This morning my wife told me that the fiance told her that my brother is a real neat freak because he is always going around picking up things, cleaning the dishes, wiping the counters, etc... In other words, he is too afraid to make waves with her so he has not told her to keep her stuff picked up and is instead just doing it himself. It makes me sick when I think about it.

 

The poor kid just has such a poor level of self esteem; he always has. I tried hinting to him that he needs to have a sit down with her and explain where the boundries are. For example, "you can do what you want and I'll respect it, but if I want to have a beer now and then I will as I see nothing wrong with it." He just gave me a painful sigh and said "yeah, I will, but I'm not ready."

 

BTW, they left for a couple of days and the display went in a bag like the good doc suggested. I avoided saying anything, but fuck her. If she says something to me I'll just quietly remind her that this is my home and she didn't ask if she could decorate it with her voodoo tribute.

[Ro-bear]

I hope your brother learns to assert himself. Some women who are harpies left to their own devices will assume a more reasonable demeanor when their partner is assertive. Same is true of some asshole guys. Some people need other people to enforce boundaries.