Why Did I Bother To Call?

[michie_s]

I’m so stupid…I knew this would happen!

During the holidays I called friends that I have not spoken to in a while. Many of whom do not know about my de-conversion and of course the question of church and where I attend came up. I managed to dodge the bullet with most people except my friend D. I really like her as a person and I thought out of everyone she would understand. It was a frustrating conversation and yesterday she sent me this e-mail. I have not responded as yet and she says she’s not expecting me to. She knows lots of people that I know so I’m sure she’ll spread the word (prayerfully of course). I was even going to ask her to keep this between us, as I’m not ready for the onslaught. How do I put out a fire that I started?

 

 

Hi Michelle

 

I trust your News Years Eve went well. How was breakfast? lol.

I have been thinking about our many conversations the other night, and

trust me I do not intend to flood you with e-mails challenging you as to

why you feel the way you do. I would just like you to think about one

thing. You don't have to e-mail me a reply, I not looking for one. I can

understand why you feel the way you do about religion, pastors, and

people in authority. I know that in the past you have been under their

control and they have hurt you and caused you to rebel against them, and to

tell you the truth who would blame you. Trust me I am not judging you. I

myself have had to deal with people in authority that have hurt me; the

exact ones that should have protected me, the ones that should have had my

best interest at heart. Now this is my question to you. You told me what

[ ] has done, what other pastors have done, the trouble with organized

religions, what other church members have done. i.e. married Christians

that treat their spouses worse then their non Christian counterparts. But

answer me one thing (This is a figure of speech, the one you need to give

the answer to is yourself) what has Jesus ever done to you that would cause

you to question Who He is and has been in you life. I asked you the other

night if Jesus was the only way into heaven and you wouldn't give me a

straight answer. It's because deep in your heart you know the truth. The

truth also is that Jesus has never done anything to you that would cause

you to question Who He is and what He has said about Himself. Jesus loves

you and has only the best in mind for you. As far as abusive pastors are

concerned and others in authority that has abused their power well we have

to turn that over to Jesus and allow Him to deal with them. Don't let them

keep you from a loving personal relationship with Jesus. Don't let them

have that power over you.

 

Happy New Years

D

[Deva]

I asked you the other night if Jesus was the only way into heaven and you wouldn't give me a

straight answer. It's because deep in your heart you know the truth. The

truth also is that Jesus has never done anything to you that would cause

you to question Who He is and what He has said about Himself. Jesus loves

you and has only the best in mind for you. As far as abusive pastors are

concerned and others in authority that has abused their power well we have

to turn that over to Jesus and allow Him to deal with them. Don't let them

keep you from a loving personal relationship with Jesus. Don't let them

have that power over you.

 

Happy New Years

D

 

Don't you just love how xians think they can mind read and make all these assumptions? Michie, I guess you don't need to respond to this if you are interested in keeping this friendship. It looks to me as if this person is pretty well sunk into fundamentalism. Your friend seems to be waffling back and forth between "you don't have to give me an answer" and "you didn't give me a straight answer" (implying they really want one). Usually, there is no reasoning with them in this area of religion.

 

It is just funny how this person keeps referring to Jesus as if he were a real person. I guess in their mind he is. An imaginary friend. Seems so juvenile.

 

And I don't think you are stupid. You are a really smart, nice person.

[upstarter]

Michie, I wonder how you feel about outright lying? I think the only way to keep this from spreading would be to say something like, "I would appreciate if you kept our conversation private. I'm really struggling with these issues now and I need to be alone with God to sort through them, without the influence of a lot of earthy voices." Invite your friend to pray for you (on her own) as RubySera has asked her sister. It will make your friend feel better and get her off your case. Give her something to do.

 

I don't consider complete honesty to be the important virtue that many around here do. So maybe my advice is tainted.

 

Heather

[GraphicsGuy]

Well, you could just tell her what Jesus has NOT done for you. All the broken promises and such, but that would probably aggravate the situation.

 

I think Heather's approach is pretty good. Let your friend pray and pray and pray and when she phones you for the latest news tell her you've had a sex change and are a gay stripper in Vegas now.

[Purple]

I realy dislike when people tell me what I think, feel and know. I don't know that my advice would be good because having someone tell me they "know what I'm thinking" unless their kidding, triggers anger out of me like nuttin else. Me, I'd tell her I didn't give her a stright answer because heaven is obvioulsy important to her, and I didn't want to hurt her by bursting her bubble that its at best a myth, at worst a lie. It does not now, nor did it ever exist. So deep down, yes I do know the truth, the truth is no one can get to heaven when they die, because there is no such place. When we die, that's it we are gone, wormfood.

 

 

Probably not the best way to keep a friend though.

[R. S. Martin]

I’m so stupid…I knew this would happen!

During the holidays I called friends that I have not spoken to in a while. Many of whom do not know about my de-conversion and of course the question of church and where I attend came up. I managed to dodge the bullet with most people except my friend D. I really like her as a person and I thought out of everyone she would understand. It was a frustrating conversation and yesterday she sent me this e-mail. I have not responded as yet and she says she’s not expecting me to. She knows lots of people that I know so I’m sure she’ll spread the word (prayerfully of course). I was even going to ask her to keep this between us, as I’m not ready for the onslaught. How do I put out a fire that I started?

 

 

Hi Michelle

 

I trust your News Years Eve went well. How was breakfast? lol.

I have been thinking about our many conversations the other night, and

trust me I do not intend to flood you with e-mails challenging you as to

why you feel the way you do. I would just like you to think about one

thing. You don't have to e-mail me a reply, I not looking for one. I can

understand why you feel the way you do about religion, pastors, and

people in authority. I know that in the past you have been under their

control and they have hurt you and caused you to rebel against them, and to

tell you the truth who would blame you. Trust me I am not judging you. I

myself have had to deal with people in authority that have hurt me; the

exact ones that should have protected me, the ones that should have had my

best interest at heart. Now this is my question to you. You told me what

[ ] has done, what other pastors have done, the trouble with organized

religions, what other church members have done. i.e. married Christians

that treat their spouses worse then their non Christian counterparts. But

answer me one thing (This is a figure of speech, the one you need to give

the answer to is yourself) what has Jesus ever done to you that would cause

you to question Who He is and has been in you life. I asked you the other

night if Jesus was the only way into heaven and you wouldn't give me a

straight answer. It's because deep in your heart you know the truth. The

truth also is that Jesus has never done anything to you that would cause

you to question Who He is and what He has said about Himself. Jesus loves

you and has only the best in mind for you. As far as abusive pastors are

concerned and others in authority that has abused their power well we have

to turn that over to Jesus and allow Him to deal with them. Don't let them

keep you from a loving personal relationship with Jesus. Don't let them

have that power over you.

 

Happy New Years

D

 

Hi Michie,

 

I'm still reading through that email from D. It makes me so angry. It's so full of subtlies that are easy to forget so I will comment as I go.

 

1. I trust your News Years Eve went well.

 

Crap! What a deceptive greeting. She knows full well she's going to spoil any "good" you might have had.

 

2. trust me I do not intend to flood you with e-mails challenging you as to why you feel the way you do.

 

Yeah right! Has she ever heard with what the way to hell is paved? Good intentions.

 

3. I would just like you to think about one thing.

 

You don't have to cater to her likes unless you happen to like doing so.

 

4. You don't have to e-mail me a reply, I not looking for one. I can

understand why you feel the way you do about religion, pastors, and

people in authority. I know that in the past you have been under their

control and they have hurt you and caused you to rebel against them, and to tell you the truth who would blame you. Trust me I am not judging you. <snip>

 

Appealing to your emotions to get you to trust her and, when she has you within her power, she will do with you as she sees fit. This is the early stages of emotional manipulation.

 

5. what has Jesus ever done to you that would cause you to question Who He is and has been in you life.

 

Ah! So this is what she was working toward. He would have to actually exist in order to have "done" anything to you, wouldn't he?

 

6. Jesus loves you and has only the best in mind for you.

 

D is very presumptuous. Most people can barely figure out their own love lives, let alone those of some nonexistent deity.

 

7. I asked you the other night if Jesus was the only way into heaven and you wouldn't give me a straight answer.

 

I imagine this is because you disagreed very strongly with her but you were not prepared to tell her to her face for fear of the repercussions. I would further guess that this is the reason you told her via email about your deconversion. My guesses are based on my own experience with similar situations. Here is what she guesses:

 

8. It's because deep in your heart you know the truth. The truth also is that Jesus has never done anything to you that would cause you to question Who He is and what He has said about Himself.

 

Michelle, is this the truth? Or is it merely what you and I and she were told to think is the truth? There's a HUGE difference.

 

9. As far as abusive pastors are concerned and others in authority that has abused their power well we have to turn that over to Jesus and allow Him to deal with them. Don't let them keep you from a loving personal relationship with Jesus. Don't let them have that power over you.

 

a) Whether or not this played into your deconversion is beside the point. Jesus did nothing to change the situation if he was as helpful in your life as he was in my life, and the lives of countless others on here.

 

b ) By leaving the juridiction of all pastors you have automatically removed yourself from any abuse they can inflict directly. You don't have to accept any indirect abuse via email from former friends or other people.

 

10. Happy New Years

 

Yes, after such a blast she ends on a polite note and assumes you don't notice that she twists and misunderstands everything you just told her.

 

Maybe she doesn't "twist and misunderstand." You don't give your interpretation, so perhaps I have no right to make that statement.

 

I'm looking at the title of your thread: Why did I bother to call?

 

Maybe because you hoped to retain a friendship. Don't beat yourself up if it doesn't work. You are not responsible for her belief system. It does not sound like she is open to discuss anything. Maybe I should read the other posts before I say more.

[R. S. Martin]

I realy dislike when people tell me what I think, feel and know. I don't know that my advice would be good because having someone tell me they "know what I'm thinking" unless their kidding, triggers anger out of me like nuttin else. Me, I'd tell her I didn't give her a stright answer because heaven is obvioulsy important to her, and I didn't want to hurt her by bursting her bubble that its at best a myth, at worst a lie. It does not now, nor did it ever exist. So deep down, yes I do know the truth, the truth is no one can get to heaven when they die, because there is no such place. When we die, that's it we are gone, wormfood.

 

 

Probably not the best way to keep a friend though.

 

Somehow, I don't see that friend as a keeper. But maybe that's just me.

 

I'm one of those sticklers for honesty. So I think I should clarify how I put the situation to my sister.

 

The conversation went something like this:

 

Me: You believe in prayer?

 

Her: Yes.

 

Me: You trust the Holy Spirit to be able to convert people?

 

Her: Yes

 

Me: If you trust the Holy Spirit to convert me, why do you feel a need to write letters?

 

Her: I wasn't sure what my responsibility was.

 

Things were extremely uncomfortable at that point and I know she was being totally honest. I knew before confronting that this (responsibility or duty before God) was her reason for writing but I had to do something about the letters. The only method I knew was to use her religion against her for my good. If she is praying in her own closet I won't have to put up with it and she will feel like she is doing her duty before God.

 

I'm thinking Purple's post would be a good answer to your friend, Michie, given that you don't want to keep her. If you want to keep her as a friend, obviously you can't tell her that.

[mwc]

But answer me one thing (This is a figure of speech, the one you need to give

the answer to is yourself) what has Jesus ever done to you that would cause

you to question Who He is and has been in you life. I asked you the other

night if Jesus was the only way into heaven and you wouldn't give me a

straight answer. It's because deep in your heart you know the truth. The

truth also is that Jesus has never done anything to you that would cause

you to question Who He is and what He has said about Himself. Jesus loves

you and has only the best in mind for you.

 

I can't speak for Michelle but this is always one annoying path to follow. What has "jesus" done to me? Of course "jesus" has done nothing to hurt me. Real or not how could a person in a story do anything to me? What did "Plato" do to me? What did the infamous "Jack the Ripper" do to me? The answer is still nothing. Not one thing. For all I know all of these people "loved" me. For all I know *all* of them are the path to this much talked about "heaven." But I doubt it.

 

The thing about this "jesus" is he's supposedly still out and about. The "good shepherd" taking care of his flock. Willing to leave the many to save the one. This is what sets this "jesus" apart from "Plato" or "Jack the Ripper." Their stories never said any such things and so no expectations were created. These expectations seem to imply a certain relationship. One of protection. One of stewardship. So if one of "jesus'" representatives does something then that is the same as "jesus" doing that thing. If this "jesus" does not approve of that action then it is up to him, as the "Good Shepherd," to live up to that title and defend his flock. So if a priest is acting in a manner that is a danger to the flock, then the flock should not be at the mercy of that priest but rather the "Good Shepherd" should immediately act to defend the flock or the single sheep as per the implied arrangement. Since that failed to happen that would indicate that negligence is what this "jesus" is guilty of if one were to hold a person in a story responsible for anything that is.

 

It would seem that blaming this "jesus" for anything would to like blaming Santa for not bringing you the gift you asked for. Blaming a storybook character is rather silly, although I think it is a phase some go through, but ultimately we realize if we must blame someone it must be the humans that perpetrate the fraud behind these stories. Blame can only be placed on something that exists and I guess that's why Santa and "jesus"/"god" are always absolved of all "sin."

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

I'd say, if there were honest answers made, then D would drop M like a hot brick, choosing her (I'm assuming it's a her) imaginary friend over Michie...

[michie_s]

Well the madness continues: I did e-mail D back. Here's what I wrote and her response. I was really trying to not get into a whole Jesus debate and focus on what I think her issue is; namely that I had the audacity to leave the church that she still attends. At this point I think we may be coming to end of our friendship...maybe I'm trying to hold on to something that just is not there. It's just sad and hurtful that she feels this way since I've know here for over 14yrs - yet I understand it because I used to be be like that... (heavy sigh). I've only been out 6 months so I guess the wounds of lost friendships are still raw and cause pain when they are touched!

 

 

My e-mail to D:

 

D I read your e-mail and thought about our conversations and even though you said it was ok if I did not respond I still wanted to.

I know it’s hard to understand that I am not the “on fire†believer that I was for 14yrs or that I no longer attend any church. I know you think I’ve turned my back on church and people that were once close friends, but the truth is they shunned me as if I had the plague. You know that, as we’ve talked about it before. As far as everyone at [….] is concerned I am lost because I left and all the words of love and caring that were expressed to me when I was there disappeared when I walked away. I know that kinds of things that are said about people who leave and the types of “prayers for the lost†that takes place – I was once part of it to. If you left you would not be treated any differently that I was. I almost feel the biggest problem you have is understanding why I left that church and why peoples behavior hurt and affected me the way it did. You are on the inside and it’s hard to be objective and see what’s really going on there.

 

You ask about what Jesus has done to me. Well if the church is his representative on earth then, he’s done a lot. That’s one of the reasons that I will never go back. If people in church represent Christ – which I think they do and are “called†to do… then I want nothing to do with him or his church. You know how Pastor [….] feels about people who leave. Is that truly a witness for god? I don’t want to get into the details because you still have so much respect for her and she is still your Pastor, but I can never have any kind of relationship with her again, much the less for me to be a member of her congregation. You could never convince me to go back there or anywhere else for that matter. What I once had is gone. I’ve moved on with my life and I’m looking forward to better days.

 

 

Her response to me:

 

Mich I'm glad that you wrote me back as I've been thinking and praying about what we talked about. I just want the Lord to help you understand that He holds nothing against you and that His love and compassion never fails!

 

To answer what you said, Yes, it does seem that people that leave [….] "develop a plague that we don't want to catch" as you put it but in all honesty when we make a choice to move on, there are consequences that are associated with that choice.

I do not believe that the love "just disappeared" but when you chose to leave, who knew that you were leaving. I did not and I am sure that many others did not as well. I was hurt by your actions BUT chose to overlook it and keep in touch. When you leave a body, the things that tied us together change and we move in different directions.

 

I don't believe that anyone treats you unkindly when they see you but YOU CHOSE to leave and there are repercussions that must be expected and allowed for. I think that you expected people to embrace your decision and act like nothing happened BUT something did happen and the relationship will not be the same. Honestly, our relationship is not the same and probably never will be again but we will learn to develop a different one based on where we are in our lives and go from there.

 

I see you as leaving BUT expecting the people at […..] to have no feelings about the decisions and to treat you EXACTLY the same. It can not be the same, there has been a separation and there are things to work through before the relationship can be restored. I AGREE with you 100% that if I left, I would go through similar treatment and I would expect that because I am making a choice to move on in another direction and towards another church body in search of my relationship with God.

 

Yes, they may be prayers for the lost but I do not believe "lost" in the sense that you mean. I think that Pastor (though I cannot speak for her) will die believing that you belong to her family and regardless of what you belong with us. That is her heart about her kids. That is how she deals with the pain of the separation, considers you lost until you return.

 

I am not trying to convince you about anything but I do care about you and I just hope that as this stuff is aired out that you feel better. Much love. D

[GraphicsGuy]

OMG...what a pile of pious bullshit!

 

Xians...they'll forgive you of you murder or molest somebody, but God-forbid that you should ever walk away from THE Church...or have sex...

 

Michie, it sounds like those relationships you had were pretty shallow. They only liked you because you went to the same church, spoke the same Xianese, and agreed with them on the "important" issues.

 

They didn't KNOW you. They didn't love you for you, only for how you made them feel about themselves.

 

My condolences. I know what it's like.

[michie_s]

I think sometimes the adjustment period after one deconverts is just as hard or harder than actually losing the religious belief, because we often find ourselves without community, friendships and in some of the more hardcore instances, family. My advice is just to let the friendship become what it becomes.

 

I've often equated the stages of grief to what we go through when we lose our religion. Loss is loss, so grief is inevitable. Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance. There is life at the end of all this.

 

I agree MM, it's lonely being one of a few un-believers in my group of friends, most of whom I'm assuming will become former friends soon. It's hard to be totally open and honest when I know that their values and beliefs are so different than mine. I do miss the connectedness that we used to share when we were all "of one mind" so to speak and I know it will never be the same again! Definitely still going through the grief stages - acceptance is a bitch though!

 

The more I think about my conversations with D and other xian friends over the past week or two, the more I realize that the price of maintaining these friendships is becoming to costly. It's taking too much work to lie, dodge and avoid situations and issues that will identify me as an ex-c. It's also becoming harder conscientiously to do so - damn..so much for leaving my morals behind when I left xianity!! Maybe that should be my resolution for 2008...loose 300lbs...in the form of fake friends!

[michie_s]

OMG...what a pile of pious bullshit!

 

Michie, it sounds like those relationships you had were pretty shallow. They only liked you because you went to the same church, spoke the same Xianese, and agreed with them on the "important" issues.

 

They didn't KNOW you. They didn't love you for you, only for how you made them feel about themselves. My condolences. I know what it's like.

 

Thanks GG,

I could not have said it better. It's just opening my eyes to what really exists as opposed to what I wanted to believe existed in these friendships. I hope I'll never be that shallow again!

[R. S. Martin]

Michie, I don't know if this works in your case but what about finding another community to participate in before you come out to all your friends? How about just sort of disappearing and eventually, when you have established a new social network, you can explain to them? That worked partway for me but I think your situation is different from what mine was.