Deva Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Great... its a Chaos Magician in the Spareian/Hineian sense... Is that why its Post #48 in answer to EvolutionBeyond doesn't make any sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 I am a Christian, and I think you unwise to shrug off Christianity as myth, or as fary tale, or as silly, etc... I am not a fundamentalist, I am not orthodox, I am not lead by the wolves. The only thing I ask of [you] is to come with open mind, and truly wish to understand the position I hold as a Christian. [Follower of Christ] A closed mind is a self created snare, by which we shut ourselves off from further understanding. I will do my best to answer any and all questions you might have about my position as a Christian. Please get this straight. Your elevation of your own form of Christianity (whatever it may be) over other forms of Christianity does not impress me and as you can already see, doesn't impress most other people on here either. OK, per your request, here are my questions: Someone already said this, but I repeat: You say you are not orthodox. Why are we unwise to shrug Christianity off completely when you have obviously "shrugged off" major Christian doctrines yourself? Isn't that hypocritical of you? What is a "follower of Christ"? One who attempts to live through His Spirit, as oppossed to ego, and whom llows that Spirit to guide them. That Spirit is Christ - Agape [Love] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 There is only one single thing I can find in the Bible that makes sense, and you can find it in pretty much every other religion. Most Christians call it the Golden Rule, I tend to like the Wiccan version better... "If it harm none, do what you will..." I prefer that because it is all-inclusive. Unlike the Christian version as in Matthew 7:12 "Do unto others what you would have them do to you," the Wiccan version includes taking care of our environment, the treatment of animals, etc. The Christian version is very selfish in that it is very human-centered and short-sighted. BTW, I am NOT Wiccan. THAT is what I live by. Very simple. I don't need the Bible or any other holy book or belief system, or even "God" to live a good, harmonious life. Nice, I believe that many paths [can] lead to the father, if one lives through the Spirit that is Christ. [Love] EDIT BY KELLIKAT: Once again editing down a lengthy post that was quoted in its entirety... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 One who attempts to live through His Spirit, as oppossed to ego, and whom llows that Spirit to guide them. That Spirit is Christ - Agape [Love] Sounds like being possessed. No thanks, I live my own life. No spirits in here. Everyone's a part of God? Your definition of God please - his attributes in particular. Aren't you saying there is a separation between us and this "part of God" called Jesus (Agape, whatever) because of "sin"? Isn't that a contradiction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 .. text ... Ooooh ... you're taking questions, are you? Lucky us!!!! Ok then ... here's mine: Since christianity is the source of all knowledge and wisdom, then what is Dark-Matter and Dark Energy? Please provide verifiable evidence of "what" these items are. Many Thanks ... looking forward to your answer. Spatz Christianity is not the source of all knowledge and wisdom- it is but a tool to help us find harmony with God. God is source of all knowledge, and wisdom, as God is all knowledge, and all wisdom. The Spirit lead us into harmony with God, the Spirit lead us into Gods truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Man try to place human -ego- attribute on God spirit in order to justify own behavior. God is not angry, or jealous, or vengful. This is product of man. That God is in imagination of man, and not the one true God who is all in all. Does God contain human attribute? yes. But only because we [man] contain this attribute, and are a part of God. God does not need anything, He is all things. For us to effect His state of being, would mean that we have authority , and power over God. [Which we do not] God possess human attribute in mind, but not in character, or Spirit. God simply exists as existance, and does not require anything from us. God made law for mans benefit, when we beak law we suffer. We live within the machine, so to speak... 1 And you know all these things how? Invisible deities been whispering in your ear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 Some things are not so clear in scripture, but they are there just the same. All one must do to see it, is desire truth, and seek harmony with God Then what good is the Bible? Like many Christians, you cherry-pick from scripture to make the god you want, which in turn, that god becomes a mirror of yourself. That's useless and incoherent to the point of being unintelligible. Don't believe me? You say there is no hell and satan is not real, however, the last sermon I listened to assured me that Hell was indeed real as real as purgatory and heaven. One of you is wrong according to your individual worldviews. 4) Death is just another beginning Then the word "death" is meaningless in the context. God is not image of man, but man image of God consiting of mind, Spirit, and matter. God is not what we make Him, He is all that is. He is All in All. Man place own attributes on God, and create false God in proccess. We re-incarnate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 There is more to bible than meets the eye, and there are scripture not even included in bible that help complete puzzle. REALLY? Do you mean - like - The Books of the Maccabees The Book of Enoch The Didache The Gospel of Thomas Sophia of Jesus Christ Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs The Epistle of Barnabas The Gospel of the Egyptians The Gospel of the Ebionites Shepherd of Hermas The Gospel of Mary The Manual of Discipline The Zadokite Document The Gospel of Judas The Infancy Gospel of Thomas The Gospel of Truth The Acts of Peter We've never heard of any of those writings. Do tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 Thus sin can't exist in the traditional sense,and you, "Gender not set", are as far from orthodox Christianity as any here... So which parts of 'scripture' are correct, which are false and why does the 1st Ecumenical council hold so much sway in the world view you espouse? Truth can be found in any text, you must dig it out. Yes, I am far removed from orthoxy, but orthodoxy is not true Christianity. [imo] My point is that, just because you fell from prthodox views, doesn't mean you cannot be Chrisyian. Christian mean follower of Christ - follower of Christ is one who live through Spirit as oppssed to ego. The Spirit is Agape [Love - Christ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 God is All in All as scripture states. Which is to say that God is everything that exists. You, me, the paint on the wall, the tree in your back yard, etc are all a tiny part of what God is. God is not just matter, He is also all spirit, and all mind. He consists of everything that exixts. [God is All existance] That sounds like pantheism. That at least makes more sense than Christianity. Does the Bible (scripture) really say that God is All in All? I'm not sure. I don't remember all the Bible education anymore. Is that in epistles? Hell exists on earth as suffering. Suffering stems from sin, which is a transgression of law God has put in place to govern. There one law to rule them all. LORD Of RINGS [Yes, I'm a fan]That law is Christ, whom is Spirit, which is Agape [Love] Hell on Earth, that's very true. I lived true a bad experience which was part of causing my de-conversion. I feel like me and my family went to Hell and came back, but our transformation from that process was that we all lost faith in a fantasy world and imaginary beings. But that suffering stems from sin is not accurate. My son who was just a few years old is the one the suffered most and still suffers from it. He barely had time to collect any transgressions, while it would have made sense if I personally had suffered all the consequences. So in reality, it's the innocent that suffer and the guilty easily go free. To say that Christ is "love" or "law" or "freedom" or whatever, is just a very common trick in Christianity. Just pick something that you think is great, important and fashionable for everyone to believe and think about and then say "That's what Jesus is". So I love Chocolate, that makes Jesus chocolate. It's a problem of equivocation. If Jesus exists as a person, how can he be a concept? Love is a concept, something abstract, like "color" or "comfort" or "amazing". Do you say Jesus is color, and comfort and the definition of amazing too? Does it mean that if you look at something amazing, that thing is the same as Jesus? How can a person be the source of a concept? It's just propaganda and word games and have no real meanings. It just sounds cool and fancy. "Bob is love" or "Bob is color" or "Bob is life, meaning of existence and best tasting Chocolate, and that all means that Bob is the master of the Universe." ... it's just word games without real sensible content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Nice, I believe that many paths [can] lead to the father, if one lives through the Spirit that is Christ. [Love] Ummm. Except that I don't believe in Christ... So where does that leave me, in your opinion? Oh yeah, and there you go quoting an entire post again <sigh>... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 I am a Christian, and I think you unwise to shrug off Christianity as myth, or as fary tale, or as silly, etc... Well, as a few others have so eloquently said already, it was hardly "shrugged" off. However, I'll leave that where it lays at the moment. If you don't believe that hell nor the devil is literal then why would it be unwise to "shrug off" Xianity? Doesn't seem to be any demerits for doing so in that case. It doesn't mean we aren't "spiritual" (for lack of a better term). It doesn't mean we aren't still journeying and discovering life. We just do it without any "help" from some sort of misplaced faith. Hell exists on earth as suffering. Suffering stems from sin, which is a transgression of law God has put in place to govern. There one law to rule them all. LORD Of RINGS [Yes, I'm a fan] That law is Christ, whom is Spirit, which is Agape [Love] 1 glaring contradiction.... one moment god is everything, next he's an implicit external ruler who makes laws... do make up your mind God not nescessarily make law, God [is] law. Law is natural part of existance. Law governs all things [Keeps things orderly] God is not tyrant, or dictator; God just is - He is the Great I am. Only He exists, we are but a part of [His] existance. To transgress against law is suffering Jump of cliff and you will know the law of gravity in a very real way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 *varying amounts of rubbish* Dude... why is it that we keep getting Christians coming here who insist that other Christians aren't really Christians at all? According to what you've been saying in this thread alone, ANYONE who believes in eternal hell isn't a Christian. That, by the way, automatically turns roughly 80% of all Christians into non-Christians. Anyone who believes Satan is a actual being isn't a Christian... so much for Job then. Anyone who believes that not all things are eternal, which includes the vast majority of liberal Christians, aren't Christians... Anyone who believes that those not going to Heaven after death just no longer exist, which is the usual way to avoid the "eternal torture" issue, obviously isn't Christian. Frankly, you've just made sure that maybe a handful of people throughout history might possibly be Christian... but not very likely. Or, you've just made damned sure that the Bible is nothing but a work of fiction, that Christianity is a myth, a fairytale... which is a bit silly, since you think concluding such is wrong. Some things are not so clear in scripture, but they are there just the same. All one must do to see it, is desire truth, and seek harmony with God If you're going to try that line on us, make sure you're reading the Bible the right way... http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...c=19329&hl= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution_beyond Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Good questions. Jesus was not God Himself - He like us was a part of God. Oh, that's like what I used to believe. God manifests as all things. So we are all 'pieces of God'. So we are all 'sons of God' - Jesus was just a human being that was peculiarly 'in tune' with God. The difference is that Jesus was begotten by God through the Spirit that is the Logos. The Word [Agape] Oh, so you believe in that silly Virgin Birth nonsense. That's disappointing. I'm afraid I don't believe in miracles. God, if he exists, seems quite content to work within the physical laws he made in the first place. I think he trusts the laws he laid down not to feel the need to break them. That was the kind of God I believed in when I believed in God. Even when I was a christian I was skeptical about miracles. His death does not redeem us, but it was His death and suffering that enabled Him to redeem us, and reconcile all men to God. How could a man reconcile us to God? If God himself wanted us reconciled to him then why was he powerless to simply change his mind about this? Why did he need a man - born of logos - to die before he could forgive us? He died because this was the only way to accomplish what He was sent to accomplish. He was born from both flesh, and Spirit. His body was going to die anyway, but the significance is [how] He died, and [why] it had to be this way. I'm afraid I still don't understand. If we are all part of God then we are all born of both flesh and spirit, aren't we? What makes Jesus so special? Yes, I understand that it was a sacrifice of a sinless man. But I still do not understand why God needed this before he could allow himself to forgive us. God is all-powerful. He makes the rules. Why does he need to make a stupid (and quite frankly ugly) gesture like this? Surely if God makes the rules he can just change them - and even make it so it had always been that way. The whole Jesus story doesn't seem to square with an all-powerful deity. Jesus was sinless; He never suffered from sin because He never sinned. [suffering stems from sin, which leads to death] Death here represents the act of dying to sin because it is through sin that we realize what sin entails. "represents"? so it is a symbolic story and not a literal one? That's what I suspected anyway. Well, that certainly makes some kind of sense. It is a story made up by human beings to explain to human beings a perceived truth about deity and human relations with that deity. It was not a literal event - it is a symbolic story created to communicate a certain spiritual idea. That's what I suspected anyway. Sin is a breaking of the law, or a missing of the mark. Jesus NEVER missed that mark, which is why God made Him to suffer. He suffered for us. [To conquer sin, one must know sin.] His death is significant in that, if He never died, He could not have conquered death. He could not have ressurected and later ascend to the father. Nor could He have sent us His Spirit, which is to lead us into all truth. Oh, so you do believe the story literally? Well, I think it is a primitive idea - an ugly sacrificing of the innocent to cleanse the guilty of their sins. It's disgusting really - and such a primitive idea that I don't think it could be any kind of truth. As for resurrection - ascension - holy spirit. That is all fairy-tale nonsense, in my opinion. You seem to believe it. But it doesn't really work for me I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Hansolo said: "Bob is love" or "Bob is color" or "Bob is life, meaning of existence and best tasting Chocolate, and that all means that Bob is the master of the Universe." ... it's just word games without real sensible content." I guess what I fail to comprehend, is these spiritual gurus who have managed to find the ultimate truth - by utilizing some twisted contortion of Yahweh / Jesus. Why not just call it "Bob" and be done with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Truth can be found in any text, you must dig it out. Yes, I am far removed from orthoxy, but orthodoxy is not true Christianity. [imo] My point is that, just because you fell from prthodox views, doesn't mean you cannot be Chrisyian. Christian mean follower of Christ - follower of Christ is one who live through Spirit as oppssed to ego. The Spirit is Agape [Love - Christ] I must say I find your views intriguing. You have exalted something you call "love" (and are you sure you have a definition of what love is that makes sense?) and then used that as a label or attribute on your god. You made your own god that way. God is in your image regardless of what you said earlier. You are the one defining love, in one way or the other, and you ascribe it to your god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 God not nescessarily make law, God [is] law. Law is natural part of existance. Law governs all things [Keeps things orderly] God is not tyrant, or dictator; God just is - He is the Great I am. Only He exists, we are but a part of [His] existance. To transgress against law is suffering Jump of cliff and you will know the law of gravity in a very real way. Great... you're a Pantheist. Why all the BS about being a Christian then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 1United... If you're going to stick around, do Webmaster Dave a favor and refrain from quoting an entire lengthy post in a reply. It's unnecessary and needlessly wastes space and bandwidth. Thank you. Sure thing... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 I admit to merely having skimmed this thread, which got very long very quickly, but you seem awfully self assured about your claims, 1. What's to say that you are right while you cherry pick the "god is all" and the xian god being the "True" god angle, while blowing off other elements that other xians believe, such as a literal hell? You see, as usual, as with other xians that visit, you make outlandish claims (because of constant exposure, people may not think of them as outlandish, but they are) with NO support--ZERO. I have to call bullshit on this just like I do with other claims with no basis that originate out of peoples imaginations and propagate unchallenged from one person to another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 God not nescessarily make law, God [is] law. Law is natural part of existance. Law governs all things [Keeps things orderly] God is not tyrant, or dictator; God just is - He is the Great I am. Only He exists, we are but a part of [His] existance. The natural law for existence is within the field of game theory in math. God is game theory. Law is adjusted according to changes in society and culture. Not fixed or absolute. God is changing. To transgress against law is suffering According to Buddhism (correct me if I'm wrong someone) suffering comes from desire, and striving to fulfill those desires. God is Buddha. Jump of cliff and you will know the law of gravity in a very real way. God is gravity. I'm gravity too. I'm God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 So how do you make up your mind which is which? Why is that view one that anyone here should care about? Why is it superior to other religious views? You come to realize who the one true God is, and you go from there. My view not superior, it only lead to fulfillment, and will ultimately lead me to hamony with God, who is all things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 I guess what I fail to comprehend, is these spiritual gurus who have managed to find the ultimate truth - by utilizing some twisted contortion of Yahweh / Jesus. All they do is that they take the things they consider good and important and write it on a sticky-note and then post it on their idol god. They can give it any name they want, but it's still just an image of their own "best case scenario". Why not just call it "Bob" and be done with it? Or Tao (Dao). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 You come to realize who the one true God is, and you go from there. My view not superior, it only lead to fulfillment, and will ultimately lead me to hamony with God, who is all things. And I'm already in harmony with the world. God is the world. So I'm in harmony with your God already... without even believing in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 I am a non-denominational, liberal Christian with both pantheistic, and gnostic influence. OK, here is a hypothetical for you: If god is in everything, then is he in the Hindu religion and does that mean salvation can be found through that religion? Salvation can only be found in Christ. Christ come back in Spirit [Holy Spirit - Agape] Only when one live through Spirit and tame ego, will salvation be realized. [Love is the answer, Christ is Love] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution_beyond Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Salvation can only be found in Christ. I don't think so. I think there is far more salvation in hinduism or in buddhism. Christianity seems to wreck lives and poses a serious threat to rational thought. That's what my experience teaches me anyway. If I was forced to believe in a god - I would choose Shiva. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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