Are Christians Welcome On Exc?

[Grandpa Harley]

I put it badly... for the most part, for me, respect is earned. I really don't give a lot of thought to people's motivation, until they start to behave in a way, or things, I find inconsistent. Then I begin to examine. If it's just my innate paranoia, then things go back to my not being much bothered by them, but they still don't have my respect until they've earned it. If I think they're untrustworthy, there is really nothing to respect.

[Grandpa Harley]

I may not be Gramps, (which could be a good thing... imagine two Gramps posting here ) ...

 

 

Nonsense... there's no such thing as 'too much' of the glory that is ME!!!! (and it's all about me!)

[crazy-tiger]

I may not be Gramps, (which could be a good thing... imagine two Gramps posting here ) ...

 

 

Nonsense... there's no such thing as 'too much' of the glory that is ME!!!! (and it's all about me!)

You do know it's possible to have too much of a good thing?

[Grandpa Harley]

nonsense... this is ME we're talking about

[R. S. Martin]

Almost forgot... how can you respect someone you don't trust?

 

Crazy-tiger, I think you explained it really well in your other post. Well, I did get a bit confused near the end but there's a lot to be lost by balancing it wrong. And I think that was your main message.

 

Alice said:

 

A couple of questions Gramps - If one respects someone and later finds it was undeserved ... what has been 'lost'? If one does not show someone respect and later finds out this was not deserved ... what has been lost?

 

Why do you need to 'trust' someone with your respect - if they do not honour the respect you show them - who has lost out and what have they lost?

 

For me it has a great deal to do with personal safety on both the emotional and physical levels. I speak as a person who grew up where the norm was fear and terror and chaos, but I had a (pre-birth?) memory of absolute peace and calm which has always been my ultimate goal for god and life.

 

Sometime in my late thirties I learned that pain and fear do not have to be the norm, and that we do not have to develop a stoicism to overcome them; instead it is possible to develop live without the pain and fear. Gradually I developed a new norm based on trust and respect.

 

With these two I was able to develop a new value system. This is how it works:

 

1. I feel good when I respect a person. (feelings are emotionally based)

2. I respect a person who does something that is good and right. (morals are intellectually based)

3. When the intellect and emotions agree that something is right, it must be so; it is all I have.

 

Sometimes we "respect a person's space," meaning we let them have it, and there is no emotion attached to the respect. I can allow people to have their own opinion on things and thereby it can be said of me that I respect their right to their opinions. However, I may not feel respectful of the position they hold. This is where the various levels of trust come in. If I respect a person's right to her own opinion, I trust that person to speak her honest opinion when asked, whereas if I don't respect her right to her own opinion I would not trust her to speak her honest opinion because she might not feel safe to speak it.

 

However, we cannot guarantee that the person will speak her honest opinion just because we respect her right to do so. People who have been through horrendous life experiences tend to be suspicious beyond what seems reasonable to the rest of us. People who have ulterior motives or hidden agendas do not necessarily speak their honest opinion just because we respect their right to do so.

 

At this point, we need to draw on our built-in "fear of the stranger" and calculate whether it is safe to take them at face value. Let's say I am really drawn in by a certain person. I take all the usual precautions and eventually make myself vulnerable. The person advises me on a social issue and I follow the advice. It so happens that this advice alienates me from my nearest and dearest--all because of some scheming bitch I dared trust and shouldn't have.

 

Alice, this has been my life far too often. It is not possible for me to operate on the system you suggest. If you can operate on that value system, I have no problem, but this is why I can't. There is too much--far too much--at stake. As Gramps says, internal consistency is of top priority.

 

I don't see how Soj can harm anyone here. I think we can live and let live. She seems to respect our space.

 

That said, someone is lying. Or massaging the truth. Or redefining words. Or maybe there's lapses of memory. It may be totally unintentional. After all, this is the internet...and the Lion's Den at that.

 

We know and have solid evidence on this thread that Kratos cannot be trusted or taken at his word.

[R. S. Martin]

I may not be Gramps, (which could be a good thing... imagine two Gramps posting here ) ...

 

 

Nonsense... there's no such thing as 'too much' of the glory that is ME!!!! (and it's all about me!)

You do know it's possible to have too much of a good thing?

 

Hey Tiger, let Gramps have his delusions. After all, that's all he's got left. Right ol' boy?

[Alice]

A couple of questions Gramps - If one respects someone and later finds it was undeserved ... what has been 'lost'? If one does not show someone respect and later finds out this was not deserved ... what has been lost?

 

Why do you need to 'trust' someone with your respect - if they do not honour the respect you show them - who has lost out and what have they lost?

 

 

It's kinda complicated, depends on the person... For me, if I give respect to someone, over and above the standard respect simply because they're a Human being, then I'm allowing them to have more "influence" than they would normally have. If they do/say something that "abuses" that influence, then I've lost some measure of confidence in my judgement.

On the other hand, if I've withheld that respect from someone who has done nothing to justify me doing so... more, if they've done/said things that would normally garner my respect, then I feel like I've managed to disrespect them... making them, in my mind, less of a person than they really are.

 

If I "trust" someone with my respect, and people know I've trusted them in that way, and then they fail to honour it or portray themselves in such away that is against what I am/stand for, then my image is "tarnished" and some respect others have for me is also lost.

 

If you've had a number of people "earning" your respect, then turning around and doing something that is pretty much disrespectful, then you have had your bad judgement shown to the world... and bad judgement is one thing that does lose you respect and is hard to overcome.

 

Damn... I feel I've not managed to get across what I mean at all.

 

Thanks for the response CT,

 

The risks for you it seems are:-

 

1. If the respect you've shown turns out to be undeserved you might lose some measure of confidence in your own judgement.

 

2. If the respect you've shown turns out to be undeserved others might lose their respect for you.

 

3. If you don't show respect for someone without justification you will feel that you have treated them as less of a person than they are (you will have misjudged them)

 

So for you it's a question about not wanting to demonstrate bad judgement - what is at risk for you is your sense of your own good judgement and your reputation as a good judge of character - would that be a fair summary of what might be lost?

 

Alice, this has been my life far too often. It is not possible for me to operate on the system you suggest. If you can operate on that value system, I have no problem, but this is why I can't. There is too much--far too much--at stake.

 

Hi Ruby,

 

Thank you for your heartfelt and detailed response.

 

Two things come to mind - What system do you think I suggested in the questions I asked Gramps?

 

The second thing - would it be safe to say that for you 'respect' is something that grows apace with the amount you trust someone else with your vulnerabilities? Apologies if I've gotten this wrong.

 

Gramps,

 

(I'm teasing you with how I feel here ...)

 

Whilst Ruby and crazy tiger passed the task ... you could do better.

 

I think it can be useful to think such questions through - I don't necessarily think there is a right or wrong answer but it can be useful to know why we relate and why we hold back in our interactions with others.

[Grandpa Harley]

That, and my memories of being gorgeous.... I'm the Norma Desmond of the board

 

[Grandpa Harley]

Gramps,

 

(I'm teasing you with how I feel here ...)

 

Whilst Ruby and crazy tiger passed the task ... you could do better.

 

I think it can be useful to think such questions through - I don't necessarily think there is a right or wrong answer but it can be useful to know why we relate and why we hold back in our interactions with others.

 

I really don't follow this... sorry...

[Alice]

Gramps,

 

(I'm teasing you with how I feel here ...)

 

Whilst Ruby and crazy tiger passed the task ... you could do better.

 

I think it can be useful to think such questions through - I don't necessarily think there is a right or wrong answer but it can be useful to know why we relate and why we hold back in our interactions with others.

 

I really don't follow this... sorry...

 

I'm saying I don't think this response ...

 

I put it badly... for the most part, for me, respect is earned. I really don't give a lot of thought to people's motivation, until they start to behave in a way, or things, I find inconsistent. Then I begin to examine. If it's just my innate paranoia, then things go back to my not being much bothered by them, but they still don't have my respect until they've earned it. If I think they're untrustworthy, there is really nothing to respect.

 

adequately looks at what you think might be lost (1) if you show undeserved respect (2) if you don't show respect and it turns out to be warranted.

[sojourner]

Ant... I'll consider my stance...

Thank you Grandpa. You have an enjoyable wit to be certain, but it's only cutting when the recepient deserves it through their words they express, not by a yellow star stuck on them. Otherwise, it actually hurts me. Sojourner is my friend, and deserves respect because she shows it. In no way is she deserving of scorn.

 

TY Antlerman, I value you very much and have grown immensly thru you and many others here. I feel as if Ive been respectful but for you to say that helps me to see its not all lost in translation.

 

The only thing about the yellow star is I cant enter the chatroom with it and that really bummed me out. I sincerely dont care what label you all decide I should have but I would really miss chatting with the friends Ive come to know and care about.

 

So thanks to whomever fixed it where I could still chat , I sincerely am thankful

 

sojourner

[Alice]

Sojourner,

 

it's been a strange few days ... I'm glad you are here. This talk of 'yellow stars' has unsettled me.

 

Alice x

[sojourner]

I hadnt thought of that, the significance of yellow stars till you said that lol

 

I just would be totally bummed out without being able to fellowship like Ive come to love.

 

thanks so much

 

sojourner

[Kelli]

I hadnt thought of that, the significance of yellow stars till you said that lol

 

I just would be totally bummed out without being able to fellowship like Ive come to love.

 

thanks so much

 

sojourner

 

Soj,

 

{{{hugs}}}

 

Kel

[sojourner]

I hadnt thought of that, the significance of yellow stars till you said that lol

 

I just would be totally bummed out without being able to fellowship like Ive come to love.

 

thanks so much

 

sojourner

 

Soj,

 

{{{hugs}}}

 

Kel

 

TY Kel

 

{{{hugs back}}}

 

sojourner

[Rhia]

Soj,

 

I willingly give you my support for not lambasting the forum with hit-and-run evangelism. I am actually a very compassionate person, and I can see sincerity - and I see that you are being honest and sincere.

 

So I want to apologize for anything directed at you from myself that might have been said in the heat of wanting to destroy ignorant evangelist types.

 

You're not obligated to accept the apology, but I've put it out there - I don't follow automatic forgiveness, and I don't expect it if it's not deserved.

 

I hope all remains well with you.

[crazy-tiger]

Thanks for the response CT,

 

The risks for you it seems are:-

 

1. If the respect you've shown turns out to be undeserved you might lose some measure of confidence in your own judgement.

Hmm... not quite. It all depends on the person, but for me it's not a "might" at all... it's a "will"

2. If the respect you've shown turns out to be undeserved others might lose their respect for you.

They might... but again, for me it'd be a certainty that they'd have lost some respect for me.

3. If you don't show respect for someone without justification you will feel that you have treated them as less of a person than they are (you will have misjudged them)

Yeah... sucks to feel guilty and sucks even more to feel compelled to publically appologise for the mistake.

So for you it's a question about not wanting to demonstrate bad judgement - what is at risk for you is your sense of your own good judgement and your reputation as a good judge of character - would that be a fair summary of what might be lost?

Close enough, but complicated by the little fact that I've got very low self-confidence. Any knocks to my confidence are pretty devestating for me... one major reason I hold back on making any judgement until I'm sure I've got it right. (not that I wait until I'm guaranteed to get it right though... I know I'd never make any calls then)

 

So yeah, that's what would be lost... it's what is risked whenever we make that call.

 

 

 

Crap... reading through that, it really sucks to be me...

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks for the response CT,

 

The risks for you it seems are:-

 

1. If the respect you've shown turns out to be undeserved you might lose some measure of confidence in your own judgement.

Hmm... not quite. It all depends on the person, but for me it's not a "might" at all... it's a "will"

2. If the respect you've shown turns out to be undeserved others might lose their respect for you.

They might... but again, for me it'd be a certainty that they'd have lost some respect for me.

3. If you don't show respect for someone without justification you will feel that you have treated them as less of a person than they are (you will have misjudged them)

Yeah... sucks to feel guilty and sucks even more to feel compelled to publically appologise for the mistake.

So for you it's a question about not wanting to demonstrate bad judgement - what is at risk for you is your sense of your own good judgement and your reputation as a good judge of character - would that be a fair summary of what might be lost?

Close enough, but complicated by the little fact that I've got very low self-confidence. Any knocks to my confidence are pretty devestating for me... one major reason I hold back on making any judgement until I'm sure I've got it right. (not that I wait until I'm guaranteed to get it right though... I know I'd never make any calls then)

 

So yeah, that's what would be lost... it's what is risked whenever we make that call.

 

 

 

Crap... reading through that, it really sucks to be me...

 

Tig, just want to say you sound exactly like me. We need to make some judgment calls in life just to know which side is up. Nothing wrong with that so long as we're fair. That's my rule. Once in a while I have to allow myself not to be perfect. That's the tough one.

[R. S. Martin]

What system do you think I suggested in the questions I asked Gramps?

 

Taken as a whole with the way you treat people, I think you operate by a value system that says to trust people with your life and wallet and heart unless they prove themselves unworthy. That's metaphorically, of course. The problem is, by that time you might be dead. I've been watching you with Buddy Ferris and others. You seem to have the skills to get you out of tight corners so it seems to work for you.

 

I reserve the right not to respond to your second question.

[sojourner]

TY Rhia

 

I dont recall you ever doing anything like that. Honestly I dont get much in the way of disrespect or anything like that here. I really dont. The first couple of weeks were a little tough.

 

And I dont recall you and I ever even chatting much at all.

 

but that is very sweet of you to offer and I do value it

 

sojourner

[R. S. Martin]

I put it badly... for the most part, for me, respect is earned. I really don't give a lot of thought to people's motivation, until they start to behave in a way, or things, I find inconsistent. Then I begin to examine. If it's just my innate paranoia, then things go back to my not being much bothered by them, but they still don't have my respect until they've earned it. If I think they're untrustworthy, there is really nothing to respect.

 

I find this very interesting. The one thing you and I have in common is that consistency is very important. However, the one thing I intuit in every encounter with every human being is motivation. It's automatic just like it's automatic for some people to notice eye colour with every person they encounter. The other thing that is automatic for me is context. If there is inconsistency between motive and context, then the danger signals go off inside my head. More often there is inconsistency in the nuances indicating motivation that set off the warning.

 

Then there's other indicators I refer to. One is level of self-esteem. Another is Myers-Briggs personality type. Some of these items are extremely difficult to pick up over the internet but vital in face to face encounters. Another important item is level of sensitivity/perception to the external environment. Yet another is level of self-awareness.

 

When you get a person whose level of self-awareness and perception/sensitivity is as keen as that of Sojourner, you get a person who goes places and learns stuff most of the rest of us never pick up. She can probably learn what it's like being an ExChristian simply by reading our testimonies and she doesn't have to go through deconversion to know what it feels like. Nor does she have to sacrifice her integrity to understand our beliefs. She can probably hold her own beliefs separate from ours.

 

This is not to say she knows everything. No human does and she admits this freely. Sojourner's "testimony" is very similar (if not identical) to that of one of my real life friends. I asked this friend if she still identifies as Christian and she said, "Yes, it's the only story I know." Likewise, Soj says she came to these insights via Christianity; if she came to them via Buddhism, for example, she would express them very differently. I think that is fair.

[R. S. Martin]

There has been discussion elsewhere as to the ethics of this poll. It's okay with me if the poll part is deleted. Is that something I can or should do? Is that fair to the people who participated?

 

The big thing I learned via this whole to-do is that Kratos is a cheat and a liar. I am sincerely sorry for hurting innocent parties in my confusion. It has been important to me to sort out who is genuine and who cannot be trusted. A lesson from trials while a Christian: Highly refined gold endures the heat of the furnace. Likewise, Kratos has taken us for chases up and down the internet and twisted words of kith and kin and where is he now? I hope never to see him again. Sojourner is still with us so far as I know. Character of gold.

 

Um, am I gushing? Better lay off before I embarrass someone.

[crazy-tiger]

Tig, just want to say you sound exactly like me. We need to make some judgment calls in life just to know which side is up. Nothing wrong with that so long as we're fair. That's my rule. Once in a while I have to allow myself not to be perfect. That's the tough one.

No chance... no chance in hell could I ever allow myself to be less than perfect. I cannot allow myself to be wrong... I need to find out what I can, get all the information together, make damned sure I've not screwed it up.

 

It sounds arrogant, it sounds like I'm trying to be superior... hell, it sounds like I'm the one with the Truth

In a way, it would be easier that way... but I know that I'm all too often wrong, and I feel that I'm always wrong.

 

Allowing myself to not be perfect? Never gonna happen... already not being perfect? Known, accepted and dealt with.

 

 

 

 

Wait... have I let slip stuff that you guys didn't know before?

 

*coughs gruffly*

 

Raaaaarggggh! Let me at them! I need to sharpen my claws!

 

 

 

 

Did it work?

[Alice]

*sniped to retain our general approaches ... and your concluding two sentences - just to save space *

 

might...

certainty...

 

 

So yeah, that's what would be lost... it's what is risked whenever we make that call.

 

Crap... reading through that, it really sucks to be me...

 

Wow - just wow on the self disclosure Crazy Tiger and wow because I would never have attributed a lack of self confidence to you. You have a high level of self awareness in this regard.

 

As for me putting 'might' where you would say 'will', this was actually worded this way because of my own hesitancy in stating my conclusions rather than this being me suggesting you have options ... although actually you do - even though it feels as if you don't

 

I still find it smarts when I'm shown to be wrong and suggestions that I have been gullible or naieve (an issue for me if I am respectful and trusting to someone who turns out not to honour this) and I understand the importance of being seen to make 'good judgements' ... this is why I often litter my paragraphs with 'might, maybe, perhaps ...' it is not just about taking a softer tone in coversation, it is also about building in some 'face saving' leeway if I'm 'off' in my judgement.

 

Anyway - I was trying out a fresh way of asking questions that are supposed to open up understanding between people and I'm really touched by how much you shared CT. I would like to comment that you seem to use your self awareness to be quite harsh on yourself, it is possible to self aware and nice to yourself

 

What system do you think I suggested in the questions I asked Gramps?

 

Taken as a whole with the way you treat people, I think you operate by a value system that says to trust people with your life and wallet and heart unless they prove themselves unworthy. That's metaphorically, of course. The problem is, by that time you might be dead. I've been watching you with Buddy Ferris and others. You seem to have the skills to get you out of tight corners so it seems to work for you.

 

I reserve the right not to respond to your second question.

 

My questions were just geared at gaining understanding of how others decide how to relate to the world. One thing I've learnt is that there is usually a story or a reason that makes complete 'sense' of why people relate to others as they do ... and somewhere back along the line (even for the Kratos's of the world) these arise out of good intent. Sometimes when the reasons are unpacked we find that the original purpose is no longer being served ... and then maybe it's time to consider making changes ... mainly if the way of relating is now one that 'sucks' for the person concerned (referring back to CT here)

 

You speak of a skills Ruby, I prefer to think of them as tools - as I drop them with annoying regularity, (or just put them down and forget where ) and have to take them up again - but you are right that I have learnt ways of getting myself out of 'emotional tight corners'. My own particular vulnerability in terms of relating to people is 'fear of rejection' rather than 'fear of loss of confidence in my good judgement' (although I understand this as well and have it to a certain degree) I have only really learnt how to make 'new' close friends in maybe the past five years - and have been a past master at pushing people away or holding them at arms length because of my 'fear' of rejection. (If you don't let them get too close - it won't hurt so much when the drop you right?' )

 

All this might just mean that I sift people at a different stage to some people. Who knows? This is just one possible interpretation of ways of 'being' that are not necessarily better or worse.

 

ohmigod - these sort of questions really can promote self disclosure ... in those that feel comfortable doing so

[Grandpa Harley]

Sojourner,

 

it's been a strange few days ... I'm glad you are here. This talk of 'yellow stars' has unsettled me.

 

Alice x

 

 

Now... there's an idea... Maybe the Triangle should be pink to REALLY piss 'em off....

 

and yes, I am that sick...