What Do I Say To My Daughter?

[Guest Pixilisa]

My ex husband is born again. Our daughter attends church with him on Sunday mornings. At first I did not mind some formal religious practice (mistake) for her. Even as an ex-Catholic, I did not see any harm in our daughter forming some sort of spiritual life and ex-husband was pretty intent on her attending church.

 

My daughter (almost 12) now frequently breaks into tears because according to her church, she will "not be seeing me in heaven". If Jesus and Judgment were to show up tomorrow, she "wouldn't see her mommy anymore". Creeping into this is subtle disapproval of other lifestyle choices (reading material, movies, hobbies and interests that are seen as "evil" according to her church's interpretation of the Bible) from my daughter. It's causing her a lot of anxiety and I am running out of words.

 

I've had numerous discussions with her father. To make a long story short, that goes nowhere.

 

I try to have discussions with her about various beliefs around the globe, how the Bible can still be a source of metaphorical wisdom...all sorts of things to try and reconcile the differences between our households. But she just gets upset, starts to cry, tells me I don't understand. In her mind, everything would be alright if I just believed what she believes. And she believes what her father and her church tell her - the Bible is inerrant, Jesus is the Son of God, God is all-knowing, evolution is a lie. I have bookshelves full of information that offers proof AGAINST these notions, but the more rational I get with her, the more I try to explain things logically, the more upset she gets.

 

Cripes, what do I do and say? Do I make a big stink and fight against her attending church anymore? Do I just keep holding my ground and let her cry and figure it out on her own? Do I go along with the nonsense to keep peace and hope she comes to her own rational conclusions?

 

I am not against church attendance per se, and certainly not against anyone having some kind of spiritual life, even if I disagree with it. I want my kids to find their own way, just as I did. It's this fundamentalist, inerrant Bible, Creationism stuff that seems to be brainwashing her that has me nuts. Is brainwashing too strong a word?

 

Thank you for any advice you might have.

 

Help.

[GraphicsGuy]

I don't know what advice to give, but I'd like to hear the response as well. I'm fairly certain I could be facing the same issue in 5 years or so.

 

EDIT: Welcome, BTW...

[upstarter]

Leaving aside hell and eternal judgment for a moment... mothers and 12 year old girls are a historically difficult mix. I think all you can do is to keep doing what you're doing. Keep offering an alternative view to what she's being told at church. Plant seeds, chip away at cracks and maybe one day when she's older and less hormonal she'll be able to see where you're coming from.

 

I don't think puberty is a time when any of us made really good choices. Hang in there. I really feel for you. It must be heartbreaking.

 

Heather

[Rhia]

I'm really sorry this is happening to you. I wish I knew more, but I don't have any kids - I do remember being 12, though.

 

When I was her age, I was so brainwashed that NOTHING anyone could say short of the Sinner's Prayer would have been able to sway me. I used to publicly cry for my friends who I thought were going to be decapitated during the reign of the Anti-Christ, and walk around in pain with their heads in their hands, unable to die.

 

I don't know your daughter, but maybe the best thing is to be as blunt and honest as possible - and let her chew on it; no matter who she goes and tells. Just look at her and tell her that what she says doesn't scare you. 'Cause at 12, I WAS using tears and scare-tactics to manipulate and get what I wanted. I'm not saying this is necessarily what she's doing - but it's possible due to the brainwashing.

 

I hope you find a suitable answer for all this; even if it's just within yourself and not something to tell her.

 

Best wishes, and welcome to Ex-C!

[Jessica Sideways]

I'd say that the brainwashing has already gotten to her and while this may be a bad thing to say - I am going to say it anyway. NEVER BRING ANYONE UNDER ANY FRAGILE STATE OF MIND TO A CHRISTIAN CHURCH! If you are young, hormonal, senile, insane, imprisoned, undergoing depression, psychiatric treatment or other such things, you are not in a well state of mind and this will make you fall prey for the Jesus cult.

 

I can understand your desire to allow your daughter freedom of religion, but you should have at least brought her to a Unitarian Universalist church, where she would have been able to get a more comprehensive religious education. Either that or performed religious education yourself.

[The-Captain]

Like Rhia I was heavily indoctrinated from a young age and scarily enough I still remember thinking and feeling alot of the things you described seeing in your daughter. I am not a parent and cannot offer any kind of advice from experience.However my two cents is that you shouldnt try to control her, saying no to church would just cause more of a rift between you. For me my road to deconversion started primarily with learning, especially about xianity.

 

Seriously I think alot of people stay with xianity because they dont realize all that their faith entails, they just hear the nice sounding parts. Mix some enlightenment bout the faith with some practical science and history and the cognitive dissonance grows to epic proportions. Maybe she'll come around maybe she won't all I can say Is be there for her w/e she does. It would be pretty hard to imagine a wonderful caring mother going to hell for not going to church and I'll bet your daughter will see that sooner or later. I dont think that you can change somebody's life by withholding or forbidding something. As much as it seems like it religion isnt a drug you can forbid for the good of your kids, its thoughts and you shouldnt try and control someones thoughts (even if it could end up hurting them later).

 

And no brainwashing is not too strong a word. But if anything these froums are proof that it isnt permanent.

[GraphicsGuy]

religion isnt a drug

 

I don't know about that one. Brain chemicals are pretty addicting. Worshipping the Lard Jaysus comes pretty close to masturbation on the "feel good" scale...

 

EDIT: That's a little OT, sorry...

[white_raven23]

Just remember...your daughter is 12. Puberty has barely started.

 

I'd just refuse to discuss it at this point. Show her that there's more to being her mom than religion. There are so many other things to talk about!

 

The one thing I would tell her regularly, is that you don't believe she is evil. Because when those hormones start really going.... guess how she will feel? And guess who she will come to?

[a skeptical believer]

As the parent of 3 teenagers, my advice would be to rent the movie "Bridge To Terabitha†& watch it with your daughter. There’s a great scene in the movie where a non religious 12 year old girl goes to church with her best friends family and was told by the friends younger sister that she had to believe in the bible or "God would damn you to hell" and the young girls reply was "I don't think God goes around damning people to hell" Read the book with her if you can't find the movie. Maybe it will spawn some discussion about the differences in what others believe.

[ShackledNoMore]

Brainwashing is not too strong a word. A spade is a spade.

 

At 11/12 years old, your daughter is not yet at an age where most learn to challenge what they are taught and/or think for themselves.

 

My guess is that the church she is attending is fairly rigid and absolute (based on your ex-husband's "born again" status and the dogma your daughter is apparently parroting: "if judgement were tomorrow" as well as all sorts of books, movies, etc. being "evil"--heck, it sounds like my church was). I don't think this is helping her, but she's getting close to being a teenager now, and I'm not sure how much pull you have anymore with her church attendance. I'm also not sure whether or not she is too old for your trying to pull her from that church would actually help. If you can influence to get her out, great, but I guess it really depends on your situation.

 

But whether or not you do, keep up you example and your influence. Even if she gets upset if you suggest the bible is a source of metaphorical wisdom, you may be leaving your mark. Giving her your broader perspective might kick start more autonomous thinking and reason for her. If she sees that you are not the evil sinner you are made out to be by the church, and that you are not rebelling against god but truly believe you are not going to hell by watching the wrong movie, and you have logic behind you, even if she goes into a frenzy now when confronted by it, well... she's only a pre-teen now, and your influence may help her escape from her conditioning. We hope. It's not guaranteed, but I think there may be a decent chance, and ultimately it will become her decision.

[mikey]

Why not turn the tables on her a little? tell her how concerned you are that her dad is taking her to a church that putting really scary ideas in her head. When she asks what you are talking about, you will have an opportunity to talk with her asking you for your views. its just a thought. My girls are just now starting to question 'why Grandma believes different stuff than Mom and Dad?" I use their questions as a chance to talk about the beliefs of all kinds of different people, in different places and all different religions around the world. They seem to understand that its ok for a person to be different than other poeple without either of them being "wrong".

[white_raven23]

Don't forget,

 

The best weapon non-believer have, is the ability to LIVE WELL.

 

You have no religious anxieties. Remember those? You are now allowed to enjoy THIS life, instead of perpetually prepare for one you have no tangible evidence of. You can take pleasure in the world wihtout worrying that you are being "worldly".

 

And all the religious can do is hate you, and make dire predictions.

 

They are as jealous of you as the image conscious excessive dieter is when he/she sees someone enjoying a slice of chocolate cake.

[Kelli]

If it's any consolation, I have the same problem with my ex. Thus far I have found no solution and my children are older (17, 16, 15) so at this point there's probably not a whole lot I can do... I can only hope that they learn to think for themselves and question enough that when they get older they break free of the fundagelical bondage they're in. The important thing is that they know exactly where I stand, and that unlike the other parent who's love and acceptance has been proven to be conditional, I love them and accept them no matter what.

[Guest Pixilisa]

THANK YOU, forum members! This is very helpful feedback and advice and I appreciate the perspective. Especially in reminding me that the child is 12, which magnifies every frickin' thing, including the ability/opportunity to manipulate and react from hormones, etc.

 

I also like the advice about taking her to a UU Church. We do have a very nice one locally. I took her once when she was about 4, and it might be worth revisiting. And living well...living a good life...turning the tables a bit...exposing her to books/movies/stories with similar conflicts.

 

We live in a very conservative part of Pennsylvania and it's hard not to feel isolated and like you're ready to be burned at the stake for not being a Christian. People actually ask you "what you believe" or "what church do you go to". There's not just the focused "brainwashing" of attending church/Bible study, but it's inherent in the local culture. One of our brand new multiplex movie theatres is used for some kind of praise and worship thing on early Sunday morning. Some kids recently refused to work at another theatre that was showing The Golden Compass (they were all fired...some sanity exists), many parents forbid Harry Potter, and we had people demonstrating in front of theatres that showed The Da Vinci Code.

 

Eesh.

 

Thanks again.

[Rhia]

From what you're describing, I have a feeling a know the general area of your "conservative PA"... and if it's the one I'm thinking of, my boyfriend barely made it out with his own sanity - and his mother still believes she sees angels singing with the congregation at her church.

 

I would love to see that whole area of the State burst into flames!

[Scott_In_Michigan]

Have you asked your daughter what she really thinks? Does she really, sincerely believe what the church has told her to believe? Or is she simply going through the routine that the church has put into her very malleable mind?

 

If your husband can take your daughter to church, and do so with your consent, then you should have the same right when it comes to sharing your spiritual beliefs with your child. Any restriction placed on you in doing so would be unfair. That said, I would get started on exposing your daughter to some of the non-religious views. The sooner that she understands that Christianity is not the only thing out there, the sooner she can get started on coming to her own conclusions about God, Jesus, religion, and spirituality. No child should be raised into a spiritual belief system without having the chance to form beliefs on their own, free of any sort of pressure or monopoly being enforced by parents. I imagine many people would be much happier had they been able to do so as kids rather than as adults.

 

Open your daughters eyes before she endures years and years of programming which could eventually turn into years of pain should she deconvert. I'm not saying that you should apply pressure on her, but just make her aware that there's more to spirituality than what the church is telling her.

[Purple]

My ex husband is born again. Our daughter attends church with him on Sunday mornings. At first I did not mind some formal religious practice (mistake) for her. Even as an ex-Catholic, I did not see any harm in our daughter forming some sort of spiritual life and ex-husband was pretty intent on her attending church.

 

When I left the church my oldest daughter was then 12, and I did the same thing, I let her and my other 2 attend church wiht their father. ONe difference that may be major is I never got a divorce, but other than that I'll tell you my experience.

 

One thing I did early on was tell my husband, and my children that I was NOT my children's mission field. I was their mother, and that was IT, my soul was NOT their responcibility, and no matter what I did, or did not believe I was their mother and they wold deal with me and respect me as such. I had seen it, kids being encouraged by the church to win their families, their parents and that one lost parent, and I told my husband I would have none of it that it would destroy my realtionship with my kids, and at a certain point, because we both had seen it he had to agree. I would answer questions my kids raised but when the subject turned to my soul I repeated what I had said I was their mother, period, my soul was my responcibility no one elses. I let my husband know, and when they switch churches I let the youth pastor know, that I was fine with the kids going to church, but BUT if I got one wiff that my kids were being pressurred to share the gospel with me, or change their behavior to win my soul I'd pull them out.

 

Fast forward a few years, when my dauther was 17 I apologised to her for the turmoil my leaving the church must have caused her. She said "Oh no, Mom that was the best thing that ever happened to me." She was having a hard time with the church herself, now at 20 I can fully see why she was, she's now an out lesbian.

 

Your experience is going to be different than mine, I'd hesitate to give advice. Someone already said mothers and 12 year old girls are a hard mix anyway and that's true. If it was me, I'd not bring it up, let her do so, and when she does ell her, that, no matter what the after life is we are allowed to love each other now, and it would be a shame to waste this time on tears over the next life. I'd tell her that my soul was not for her to worry about that no one knows anothers heart but god anyway, and again I may sound liek a broken record, but you're her mother, not her mission field.

[Guest Pixilisa]

My ex husband is born again. Our daughter attends church with him on Sunday mornings. At first I did not mind some formal religious practice (mistake) for her. Even as an ex-Catholic, I did not see any harm in our daughter forming some sort of spiritual life and ex-husband was pretty intent on her attending church.

 

When I left the church my oldest daughter was then 12, and I did the same thing, I let her and my other 2 attend church wiht their father. ONe difference that may be major is I never got a divorce, but other than that I'll tell you my experience.

 

One thing I did early on was tell my husband, and my children that I was NOT my children's mission field. I was their mother, and that was IT, my soul was NOT their responcibility, and no matter what I did, or did not believe I was their mother and they wold deal with me and respect me as such. I had seen it, kids being encouraged by the church to win their families, their parents and that one lost parent, and I told my husband I would have none of it that it would destroy my realtionship with my kids, and at a certain point, because we both had seen it he had to agree. I would answer questions my kids raised but when the subject turned to my soul I repeated what I had said I was their mother, period, my soul was my responcibility no one elses. I let my husband know, and when they switch churches I let the youth pastor know, that I was fine with the kids going to church, but BUT if I got one wiff that my kids were being pressurred to share the gospel with me, or change their behavior to win my soul I'd pull them out.

 

Fast forward a few years, when my dauther was 17 I apologised to her for the turmoil my leaving the church must have caused her. She said "Oh no, Mom that was the best thing that ever happened to me." She was having a hard time with the church herself, now at 20 I can fully see why she was, she's now an out lesbian.

 

Your experience is going to be different than mine, I'd hesitate to give advice. Someone already said mothers and 12 year old girls are a hard mix anyway and that's true. If it was me, I'd not bring it up, let her do so, and when she does ell her, that, no matter what the after life is we are allowed to love each other now, and it would be a shame to waste this time on tears over the next life. I'd tell her that my soul was not for her to worry about that no one knows anothers heart but god anyway, and again I may sound liek a broken record, but you're her mother, not her mission field.

[Guest Pixilisa]

Purple, I like those words and I think that will be an excellent thing to say to both my daughter and my ex-husband. I think you've identified what concerns me most about my daughter's response, and what pisses me off about Christianity in general.

 

What do people here at this forum think about the idea that children need some sort of literalized belief system for security, at least until their reasoning catches up with their imagination? Two of my favorite and respected writers/scholars (Joseph Campbell and Clarissa Pinkola-Estes) endorse the idea of encouraging the development of a "relationship" with the unseen world, albeit a more highly creative and metaphorical one. Joseph Campbell was to have said later in life, near his death, that it may very well be that children need the literal version of Bible stories. And Dr. Estes, a Catholic, was appalled to find (in her post-trauma work with families in Columbine) that many children and adults did not know the rudiments of basic prayer.

 

This surprised me, since Campbell at a very early age dismissed the idea of a personal God, and Estes - knowing her work well, especially when it comes to female psychic, emotional and creative development - most certainly does NOT endorse fundamentalism and probably not evangelicalism either.

 

For myself, even as a young Catholic being told the Bible stories as "real", I didn't quite buy it. But I must admit that since acknowledging to myself that these stories are metaphor and myth, I have no desire to celebrate Christmas and Easter, even though they are very much a part of my familial traditions and our ethnic heritage. There's a loss there. I digress....

[florduh]

Hello. Looks like you've come to the right place!

 

I don't have children, but I am very close to my niece, and at that age she fell in with a bad crowd (Christians). She got "saved" and of course wanted to share her good news with her uncle.

 

My suggestion is to show interest in her new beliefs, and ask her the hard questions about them. Questions that might prod her into thinking more clearly by realizing the absurdity of some of the things she's been told by the cult. Basic questions about the origins of the Bible, and the contradictions. Children lack the experience of adults, but they can still reason and use common sense.

 

I also provided my niece with books (she was/is an avid reader) by Alan Watts, and other spiritual writers with diverse viewpoints, just in case she really was on a spiritual quest and not just snared by the Christian home wreckers. I think when kids are old enough they should be exposed to everything out there, but only after they are taught some critical thinking skills.

 

My niece turned out OK, ad I wish the best of luck for you and your family.

 

- Chris

[Jessica Sideways]

Yes, people who go to Unitarian churches will receive a lot more comprehensive Religious Education and I know a lot of UU Wiccans, UU Muslims, UU Atheists, UU Zoroastrians (yes, that's true - I've known UU Zoroastrians). This is a much better alternative than taking her to one of those Christian cults. I remember my indoctrination and I can honestly say that it is not too far of a stretch from what a cult would do.

 

They love bomb you whenever you do something positive towards the cult and withhold that love if you do something that is against the cult. For instance, when you get baptized, you are surrounded by people that say 'congratulations' or the like. But when you do something like fight for LGBTQ rights, that same love is automatically withheld from you because you are acting outside 'god's plan'.

 

Scientology is the new Christianity.