How Does The Us Think Its Perceived?

[upstarter]

Even in Canada we don't agree on how to say those two things. Well the territory is pretty standard... emphasis on the first syllable, Noon'.... sounds like the oo sounds in foot... a voot (also sounds like foot). Iqaluit.... most people say Ee cal' oo it, but some people say Ee cal' oo eet

 

Obviously both words are from the language of the people who live up there. But the scrabble letter theory is amusing.

 

Hope this was helpful. Always happy to educate people about my country.

 

Heather

[Ex-COG]

You missed out arrogant, ignorant, insular, beggars on a golden throne, only slightly less corrupt than the former Soviet Union...

 

But then, working for AT&T and Crawford & Co. makes you cynical.

 

Ive actually been writing a few essays on how America is the "New Soviet Union", which has earned little more than glares from my pol sci professors....

 

And in reply to the op, negatively

 

There was quite an interesting essay posted here a few weeks ago (I remember not by whom) that posited the US mirrors the USSR in what happens, and was predicting some pretty nasty stuff with Balkanisation of the US... the only safe places to be would be Alaska and Hawaii...

 

A lot of people here didn't like the idea, but TBH, it had some resonance with this outsider observer...

Balkanisation...I've thought of that, although hopefully it will occur without violence. Just as the Soviet Union busted up into several republics, the USA will also. It actually would be better for the world, as then they couldn't be dominated by us, and we former USA citizens would be forced to act more politely since none of the new republics would have the power to bend other nations to their will.

 

Let's see if saying that gets me on a no-fly list.

[Ex-COG]

Political science professors should be among the first to self-critique their country's political position on the global radar.

 

That they're as ignorant and arrogant as Mr. and Ms Everybody on the street is NOT GOOD

 

I'm not sure that this makes the profs ignorant or arrogant. Labeling the US the CCCP is probably just seen by them as hyperbole. That's how I'd see it unless a good argument was made to back up the label and I had more context to what the Doc is actually saying.

 

I to was a poli sci major at a university in a rural red state. My professors were neither arrogant or ignorant, but rather well informed and enlightened individuals.

People disagree with the comparison because they are so focused on the different economic systems. They don't understand that the similarities are between how authoritarian/totalitarian the USSR was and how the USA is heading in that direction, even if we keep a capitalist system. Personally, I am more concerned about my rights as a human being and how I am treated by my government than what kind of economics the government follows. What good is a capitalist society if you are oppressed and controlled within it?

[Ex-COG]

Gas them. Gas every red state that voted for Bush. Gas them all, and gas them now. And if that sounds a little too 1940s for you, then fine, nuke the fuckers. Nukes have come a long way since 1945, so much so that they're not even 1940s anymore. It's just that gassing them sounds so much more appropriate.

OK, but please allow us "blues" to move out of the red states first.

[R. S. Martin]

Oh RubySera has started a favourite pasttime of Canadians who grew up near the border (which is most of us)... telling stupid American stories. lol

 

Yeah, and then there's the story that's just a wee bit far out that I'm not sure that it's actually true. There's this American who supposedly came to Ontario in the middle of July with his skis and asked where all the snow was. You know, Canada is the land of snow and ice. Surely they've got ski slopes somewhere but he couldn't find any signs of snow...

 

I think there's more to it than "stupid American" picture. It's the self-absorbed American who cares so little about anyone else in the world they there is no effort to learn about or respect people and their countries outside the US. That's is what bugs me. The implications are enormous and can lead to things like 9/11.

[The-Captain]

Balkanisation...I've thought of that, although hopefully it will occur without violence. Just as the Soviet Union busted up into several republics, the USA will also. It actually would be better for the world, as then they couldn't be dominated by us, and we former USA citizens would be forced to act more politely since none of the new republics would have the power to bend other nations to their will.

 

Let's see if saying that gets me on a no-fly list.

 

In my opinion I think this would be for the best. I dont see how any representative government can work with such a large population whilst preserving individual freedoms. Seriously what kind of social coherence can be expected from round about 360 million (I think) people? Ive always subscribed to the ideals of Jeffersonian democracy, I feel a loose confederation of largely soveriegn states would be ideal. Instead of the current large Federal government/bueracracy power should be diffused amongst smaller groups. The textbook rationale against this has been that the U.S. wouldnt be as strong in foriegn politics/war time, well that doesnt sound so bad. Of course a strong central government can be powerful and efficient as it draws from the resources of an entire country, but thats fascism/despotism not democracy. Democracy trades strength and stability for freedom, no the other way around. (Im probably preaching to the choir here but I argue with so many people who are willing to trade freedom for security/power...sigh)

[Grandpa Harley]

Balkanisation...I've thought of that, although hopefully it will occur without violence. Just as the Soviet Union busted up into several republics, the USA will also. It actually would be better for the world, as then they couldn't be dominated by us, and we former USA citizens would be forced to act more politely since none of the new republics would have the power to bend other nations to their will.

 

Let's see if saying that gets me on a no-fly list.

 

Look at it this way: since Texas pipes in more than half its water from out of state, Balkanisation would be far from 'peaceful'... the basic inequality across the continent of resource means that the Square states would be like a Mad Max movie and the large cities under siege or full of starving people... As was pointed out, in the USSR, people lived near work, usually rent free... inthe Americas there is no vestige of socialism to act as a safety net... and lots and lots of armed people... guns, and not enough shit to go round, and nowhere to live... lets see... sound like war to me.

[The-Captain]

Balkanisation...I've thought of that, although hopefully it will occur without violence. Just as the Soviet Union busted up into several republics, the USA will also. It actually would be better for the world, as then they couldn't be dominated by us, and we former USA citizens would be forced to act more politely since none of the new republics would have the power to bend other nations to their will.

 

Let's see if saying that gets me on a no-fly list.

 

Look at it this way: since Texas pipes in more than half its water from out of state, Balkanisation would be far from 'peaceful'... the basic inequality across the continent of resource means that the Square states would be like a Mad Max movie and the large cities under siege or full of starving people... As was pointed out, in the USSR, people lived near work, usually rent free... inthe Americas there is no vestige of socialism to act as a safety net... and lots and lots of armed people... guns, and not enough shit to go round, and nowhere to live... lets see... sound like war to me.

 

Finite resources and unchecked growth have gotten us into a fine mess....

[Thurisaz]

Does a handful redeem the mass?

 

Maybe yes... maybe no. Depends on the circumstances.

 

I actually haven't done the "calculations" on that question yet.

[ShackledNoMore]

I think there was something missed in response to the OP yesterday. I am responding to the OP directly:

 

I PERSONALLY suppose we are perceived abroad as described by Gramps, et. al., early in the thread (rude, arrogant, self-absorbed, ignorant, insular, imperialistic, corrupt idiots). At least I think the US government is perceived that way. I imagine that many/most are astute enough to realize that there are yokels here that support this perception as well as a great many people who do not fit the description at all.

 

As far as the great unwashed masses of of Americans, I believe there are three significant camps, two of which have been mentioned so far:

 

1) There are those who think we are perceived as rude, arrogant, self-absorbed, ignorant, insular, imperialistic, corrupt idiots.

 

2) There are those who fit the stereotype and just DON'T CARE. They don't think at all about how we are perceived abroad, and if it did cross their mind, or if they are aware of it in some underlying level, well fuck 'em. We are Americans, we are the greatest, and we are all that matters! The rest of the world doesn't matter, and it doesn't make a flit of difference whether or not they think we are jack-asses.

 

3) This is the one I think was missed yesterday: I think there are also those who still think we are admired, loved, and respected throughout the world. When we were children we were taught that the U.S. was unequivocally the greatest country in the world and that people from all the other countries of the world would give their eye teeth to get in here. The land of opportunity. The land of milk and honey. The promised land. The land of freedom and liberty and justice for all. The benevolent protector and defender of the world. There is a certain slant we still get subtly exposed to in the direction that the Iraqis (or the Iraqi people, at least) LOVE us and are really, really grateful for the way we liberated them. One of the favorite manufactured, overblown issues in the political arena today is illegal immigration. What is one of the underlying assumptions here, that continues to subtly shape some Americans' thinking? That millions of people are so desperate to get in that they'll do ANYTHING, risking life and limb, and on a large scale to get to the land of milk and honey. The legacy of this sort of conditioning on the minds of the people leaves behind an influence and I believe the underlying mentality that the whole world loves us still kind of prevails in the minds of some Americans.

[Grandpa Harley]

Problem is, type two are also, to a large degree, the face of Corporate America abroad. To be told by the VP in charge of EMEA that Portugal doesn't need localisation of an application since they 'all speak Spanish there' which ain't true. And to be told that a Global project basically only supports the American business model, and there'd be some ROW (Rest Of World) work rounds in 'a year or two' when they expect you to support the service 3 weeks ago you realise that Corp America looks at 'Global' from the Pacific in the west to the Atlantic in the east.... All this from someone who has had the EMEA job for 18 months and STILL makes a virtue of the fact they don't have a passport... Yokel covers the mentality, but it doesn't cover the demographic...

[R. S. Martin]

Problem is, type two are also, to a large degree, the face of Corporate America abroad. To be told by the VP in charge of EMEA that Portugal doesn't need localisation of an application since they 'all speak Spanish there' which ain't true. And to be told that a Global project basically only supports the American business model, and there'd be some ROW (Rest Of World) work rounds in 'a year or two' when they expect you to support the service 3 weeks ago you realise that Corp America looks at 'Global' from the Pacific in the west to the Atlantic in the east.... All this from someone who has had the EMEA job for 18 months and STILL makes a virtue of the fact they don't have a passport... Yokel covers the mentality, but it doesn't cover the demographic...

 

Gramps, you've caught the North American perception of The Universe in a nutshell.

 

It's not just the Americans that think that way. It's hard for me not to see the world that way.

 

I'm beginning to get glimpses from the UK and from Australia, and a few other spots on the globe, because of the people who post on here and the novels I've read.

[R. S. Martin]

3) This is the one I think was missed yesterday: I think there are also those who still think we are admired, loved, and respected throughout the world. When we were children we were taught that the U.S. was unequivocally the greatest country in the world and that people from all the other countries of the world would give their eye teeth to get in here. The land of opportunity. The land of milk and honey. The promised land.

 

I think most people feel this way about their homeland and I'm sure Americans are no different.

[ShackledNoMore]

3) This is the one I think was missed yesterday: I think there are also those who still think we are admired, loved, and respected throughout the world. When we were children we were taught that the U.S. was unequivocally the greatest country in the world and that people from all the other countries of the world would give their eye teeth to get in here. The land of opportunity. The land of milk and honey. The promised land.

 

I think most people feel this way about their homeland and I'm sure Americans are no different.

I haven't lived in other countries enough to say this with authority, but I had the impression that this tended to be an American mentality. It certainly goes along with the perception of arrogance that many American and non-American posters claim.

 

There are roughly 200ish countries in the world (give or take a few, depending on your definition of "country"). It seems to me that anyone who believes his or her country is unequivocally the best doesn't just have a 99.5% chance of being deluded, but a 100% chance, since nothing is black and white and there would be a number of contenders of "best" country which have relative advantages or disadvantages compared with others. You could say, "I love my country" or "There is no place I'd rather live than my country" or even "I live in one of the best places in the world." You could cite immigration applications, or standard of living benchmarks, or crime statistics, or poverty rates, or survey comparative freedoms offered in various countries (as long as you don't mindlessly parrot any propaganda claims of your own country) and conclude with justification you live in one of the better countries (or not). But if truly most people in most countries really believe "we are the greatest," "everybody loves us," "everybody wants to come here" then most people in most countries are deluded.

 

Also that's not the impression I get from most of the International posters here, although I do admit that posters here tend to rate higher in critical thinking skills than people on average.

 

So, down to specifics: Do Canadians generally think that they are the best, the promised land, everybody loves them, and everybody (not just disgruntled American liberals) is clamoring to get in to Canada, head and shoulders in greatness above not only the US, but all other nations including the UK, Sweden, Japan, New Zealand, and Australia to name just a few of many, and that the entire world recognizes that Canada is the world's greatest nation? Or is it just that Canadians have a healthy sense of national self worth? I think my point #3 more deals in arrogance than self esteem.

[The-Captain]

So, down to specifics: Do Canadians generally think that they are the best, the promised land, everybody loves them, and everybody (not just disgruntled American liberals) is clamoring to get in to Canada, head and shoulders in greatness above not only the US, but all other nations including the UK, Sweden, Japan, New Zealand, and Australia to name just a few of many, and that the entire world recognizes that Canada is the world's greatest nation?

 

Not that I was ever properly gruntled....

[Jillian]

3) This is the one I think was missed yesterday: I think there are also those who still think we are admired, loved, and respected throughout the world. When we were children we were taught that the U.S. was unequivocally the greatest country in the world and that people from all the other countries of the world would give their eye teeth to get in here. The land of opportunity. The land of milk and honey. The promised land.

 

I think most people feel this way about their homeland and I'm sure Americans are no different.

 

Hi Shacklednomore and also Ruby Sera,

 

As an Aussie we TOO were brought up to think the same way, and these days we are even in some circles called the 52nd state as the "americanism" influence is huge here.

 

After travelling to the US and also having spent time in the ME, Iraq specifically(due to my job) how westerners see the US and how those NOT westerners see US, there is a HUGE divide, however from the outside on all counts, "americans" are seen as arrogant and ignorant. My time in the US changed that opinion in some ways, however instilled it in others. EG: When I first arrived in the US, I remember one of the first questions asked of me was "are their cars in Australia". As I don't mind "takin' the piss" on occasion, with dead-pan face, my reply was..."oh no...usually we jump into kangaroo's pouches to commute, but if we want to take a leisurely sunday trek, we hop on a wombats back"... NO WORD OF A LIE... the person actually BELIEVED ME! I did explain later to them that I was only joking of course, but it has to be realised these questions were thrown at me, along with comments like "you speak "american good for someone from Austria"...

 

It summed up to me that at least a lot of those I met and interacted with, were oblivious to pretty much ANYTHING outside the US. Others of course were well learned in things INTER US, however those whom DID seem to have a REAL idea were those whom had travelled abroad, over those who hadn't.

 

When being in Iraq and dealing with christian, shi'ia sunni and also non denom Iraqi's (yes there are atheist/agnostic etc Iraqi's too)...they too saw and felt firts hand the ignorance..and therefore arrogance.

 

Again... summing up the same point... and actually the longer one of the US troops (individuals) were IN iraq, the more they "got", the "dream" they wre fed was not the reality per se.

 

BTW I didn't mean to offend any american with those comments and I realise we are all individuals.. I was just going on those I have personally met.

 

As a result though, I reckon we aussies, yanks and brits and any other arrogant SOB's shoudl break out of the "we're the best" mentality as each and every country AND its people has such wonderful things to offer. My own opinion is, it is the head honcho's who fuck it up and make the rest of us "look" bad as they are the image WE outside initially see.

 

Hope that made sense. LONG summer holiday time here so having EVERYONE at home near 24/7 is distracting!

[upstarter]

So, down to specifics: Do Canadians generally think that they are the best, the promised land, everybody loves them, and everybody (not just disgruntled American liberals) is clamoring to get in to Canada, head and shoulders in greatness above not only the US, but all other nations including the UK, Sweden, Japan, New Zealand, and Australia to name just a few of many, and that the entire world recognizes that Canada is the world's greatest nation? Or is it just that Canadians have a healthy sense of national self worth? I think my point #3 more deals in arrogance than self esteem.

 

I can't claim to speak for Canadians as a whole, but my impression is this: Yes, we think our country is the best place to live, yes we think that everybody loves us (we're so lovable and inoffensive), I don't think we see ourselves as the promised land or that everyone is clamoring to get in. Certainly we don't think anyone thinks of Canada as the world's greatest nation. We are a tiny population on a huge land mass. People often forget how much smaller we are than the U.S. We will never compete on a worldwide scale with the U.S. And Canada really has had a serious inferiority complex with the U.S. being our giant shadowing neighbour.

 

We lift our national self-esteem by spreading stupid American stories.

[R. S. Martin]

ShackledNoMore,

 

Thank you for your forthright reply. This allows me to address an issue I have long wanted to address.

 

I think I will deal with your Point #3 and "down to specifics" separately because to me they "feel" like slightly separate issues. This may (or may not) become clear.

 

3) This is the one I think was missed yesterday: I think there are also those who still think we are admired, loved, and respected throughout the world. When we were children we were taught that the U.S. was unequivocally the greatest country in the world and that people from all the other countries of the world would give their eye teeth to get in here. The land of opportunity. The land of milk and honey. The promised land.

 

As you may notice, I quoted only part of it. I did not think all of it qualified for obvious political reasons.

 

I doubt that many of the world's nations believe that they are universally loved and respected on all matters. However, based on novels, news articles, and just listening to what people say from various parts of the world, I get the impression that most nations are concerned with global image. They believe the world is looking to them specifically for an example on this or that issue because they believe they are uniquely situated for whatever it is. If one listens to refugees or reads their memories of the homeland before the war, it usually sounds as though it was a "land flowing with milk and honey," a "Promised Land" to which they would "give their eye teeth" to return. Of course, the culture of today's war refugees probably does not contain this specific vocabulary or terminology because many of them are not of Christian background. However, the feeling is there. Whether we would evaluate it in those terms may not be relevant. I understand the question is how people perceive their own nation to be perceived.

 

The people of most of the world's countries probably know that people from the "First World" wouldn't want to live in their countries.

 

So, down to specifics: Do Canadians generally think that they are the best, the promised land, everybody loves them, and everybody (not just disgruntled American liberals) is clamoring to get in to Canada, head and shoulders in greatness above not only the US, but all other nations including the UK, Sweden, Japan, New Zealand, and Australia to name just a few of many, and that the entire world recognizes that Canada is the world's greatest nation? Or is it just that Canadians have a healthy sense of national self worth? I think my point #3 more deals in arrogance than self esteem.

 

Boy oh boy, this is a difficult one but I think you are giving me license to actually speak my mind. Of course we--I--think everybody loves us--except perhaps arrogant Americans. The entire world knows that we're NOT AMERICANS. At least, if they don't we'll gladly enlighten them. I'll never forget the story a jet pilot told. He was standing in the livingroom as he told the story. He had arrived at this place in Europe where they barely understood English and they told him they don't like Americans. He explained that he wasn't American. Okay but they don't like Americans. He couldn't get service because they didn't like Americans. This was in the 1980s.

 

So yeah, everybody who knows us likes us--that is the impression I get. Immigrants seem to know why they come here rather than to the States so I assume we're better than Americans. I was raised to think we are and somehow Canadians just know we're better than Americans. It's the way we're raised.

 

Do we think that the entire world, nations such as "UK, Sweden, Japan, New Zealand, and Australia," recognize Canada as the world's greatest nation? That one makes me chuckle. I know why you're asking. I think these enlightened nations may be aware that we exist. We are well aware that we are in the world's backwater and don't register on the global radar. I wasn't aware of this before 9/11 but I know it now. When I was a child in school I learned first and foremost about Canada. I thought we were the world's greatest and most important nation for sure just as I thought the Old Order Mennonites were the salt of the earth for whose sake the Lord delayed his second coming. There was nothing in our national anthem, in the newspapers, or anywhere, to suggest otherwise. Well, maybe England with its (and our) Queen was more important. (Come to think of it royalty is one thing that doesn't change. She was queen when I was a kid and she's still there--still on our postage stamps, young as ever.)

 

When I was about thirteen I had a penpal in Pennsylvania. I felt sorry for her because she didn't have a Queen Elizabeth and couldn't sing "God Save Our Gracious Queen," and I was sure she didn't have as powerful a national anthem as our "O Canada."

 

Quite a number of years ago I read an article in a local newspaper written by an international student exchange student from Australia. He mentioned that he found it strange that nobody here in Ontario (my home town) talked about where they would rather live. Where he came from people were always talking about whether they would rather live in Canada or the US. That confirmed what I already knew--we really were the world's greatest nation--the Americans just didn't know it. That conviction remains unchallenged. It is, afterall, my "home and native land."

 

I'm aware that that's a fairly emotional response. I am also aware that we have a fair number of Canadians on here and not all of them might agree with me. Further, if I were asked to judge a country based on its quality of living and economic foundation, I could hardly say that Canada was better than many other places in the world. However, I understand the question was of a more subjective nature than objective. I think we've got a fairly healthy self-esteem up here but I don't think we have the claustrophobic arrogance you describe for Americans. I call it claustrophobic--no, maybe that's not the English word. I mean the word that means to choke a person because it's so stuffy in a room with not enough oxygen to breathe. That's the feeling I get when I hear all the propoganda about liberty south of the border. I feel like we've got air up here to breathe--"the True North strong and free," like our national anthem says.

[R. S. Martin]

So, down to specifics: Do Canadians generally think that they are the best, the promised land, everybody loves them, and everybody (not just disgruntled American liberals) is clamoring to get in to Canada, head and shoulders in greatness above not only the US, but all other nations including the UK, Sweden, Japan, New Zealand, and Australia to name just a few of many, and that the entire world recognizes that Canada is the world's greatest nation? Or is it just that Canadians have a healthy sense of national self worth? I think my point #3 more deals in arrogance than self esteem.

 

I can't claim to speak for Canadians as a whole, but my impression is this: Yes, we think our country is the best place to live, yes we think that everybody loves us (we're so lovable and inoffensive), I don't think we see ourselves as the promised land or that everyone is clamoring to get in. Certainly we don't think anyone thinks of Canada as the world's greatest nation. We are a tiny population on a huge land mass. People often forget how much smaller we are than the U.S. We will never compete on a worldwide scale with the U.S. And Canada really has had a serious inferiority complex with the U.S. being our giant shadowing neighbour.

 

We lift our national self-esteem by spreading stupid American stories.

 

You posted while I was writing. Not sure how to comment. I think there's more to it for me by now than "stupid American" stories but being ignored and discounted by big brother or next-door neighbour doesn't help the situation.

[Vigile]

It seems to me that anyone who believes his or her country is unequivocally the best doesn't just have a 99.5% chance of being deluded, but a 100% chance

 

Unless of course they happen to live in Italy

[Grandpa Harley]

Then there's only the corrupt government at all levels to worry about...

[Vigile]

Au contraire. It is the corrupt government that makes the country infinitly more interesting and livable. There is a certain amount of freedom that comes with corruption. Rules in Italia are allowed to bend. Rules in a place like the US or UK are rigid and harsh.

[Grandpa Harley]

 

Graft - the pinnacle of methods of governance.

[Vigile]

Now yer gittin' it

 

http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?AR...mp;IBLOCK_ID=35

[Vigile]

Actually, this one is better: http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?AR...mp;IBLOCK_ID=35

 

Both make for fun reading though.