live and learn Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 My parents have lived to a ripe old age (87 and 89), and have been relatively active (my mom still had a a veg garden this past summer). They are both declining rapidly now. My 7 siblings and I are going to their house Sunday for their 65th anniversary. Incredible! My problem is this: My mother is convinced that I, the lone black sheep, will be going to hell, although I have never told her directly that I no longer believe. She has never been able to have a conversation with me without bringing in what she thinks is a subtle nudge back towards the fold. I've been able to tolerate that, since I know she literally can't help it. I am certain that at some point soon, probably when we get together, I will be put in the position of outright lying to my mother to give her peace or to tell the truth and give her more agony. (She recently told me that her sister will never forgive herself for "failing" my cousin who died "in sin".) I remember as a little kid we kids lined up around my grandmother's death bed while she made each of us promise to be good little believers, and I can see that same scenario coming up with my mother soon. How can I tell a person who sees only black and white that I will be with them in heaven? I guess the truth is that I want to formulate a lie that will appease her with the minimum of discomfort on my part. Maybe there is no way around it, I don't know. I just can't let her spend her last moments being tormented because she thinks I will go to hell, and I know she can think no other way. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 I feel that way about my grandmother, but I imagine that it being your actual parent would be even worse. I too feel..."convicted"...about lying when asked if I'm still going to church, but I don't know what else to do. Is it worth it to cause them emotional pain to appease my own conscience? I don't think so. Honestly, a family member that sees so black and white unfortunately doesn't give a shit if you are being true to yourself and being honest. They can't see much further than their own nose. This is partly why I started the "Rejected by Xian family" thread...to address such issues. For the sake of peace my personal opinion is to lie to your mother. Give her the warm-fuzzies she desires and live your life as you see fit. If she doesn't want a relationship based on reality then you might as well indulge her fantasies. And to be honest, if it wasn't for her advanced age I would not be giving you that particular advice. If she were a fair bit younger I'd advise the opposite. But, it's all strictly my opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Personally I advocate tolerating the subtle hints and annoying nudges, like GG here I think its better for all involved to let stuff slide. However if anyone asks me point blank what I believe Ill tell them. Till then let them think what they want, I wont be the one to break news that would hurt and upset family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Somehow I think the lie you tell your mom to help her feel better will in turn be awfully damaging to you and your own conscience. My own parents are in denial about me. They think that god will eventually turn me around. That's their coping mechanism. Are you sure your mom doesn't have the same mechanism? Personally I couldn't live with the lie, but I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone who felt it best for their own situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upstarter Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 I'm in a very similar situation. The last time this topic came up my mother said, "I just want to know that my family is all going to the same place when they die." Or something to that effect. I hugged my mom and assured her that I was completely confident that we were all going to the same place. She was happy. I didn't lie. She heard what she wanted to hear. I don't care what people say about how I must be eaten up inside by living a double life. I have lived this way for 20 years, I do not feel eaten up in any way. And I will not break the heart of my elderly parents just to make my own life easier. Heather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 I'm in the same situation and I agree with the majority. My fundie parents are in their 80's and I'm more than willing to keep silent or even fudge a little belief if it makes them feel more secure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 My parents are in their 50's and 60's, so they took it relatively calmly. However, I have not told my dad's mom, who is in her late 80's. I don't think she would take it as calmly, she still literally believes in it. I would not admit to being an atheist to her. I'm afraid it would cause her too much anxiety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellsybop Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 These are common issues amongst us all aren't they? Unfortunately I feel we have to use our own better judgement calls on our own individual cases. If we don't do what we feel is best, then we will suffer the consequences of it on our consciouses afterwards. Because what it boils down to is this... We tell the truth of the matter and hurt someone's feelings.. or we lie about it and carry that guilt of that lie when our loved ones are gone. Either way, it's not easy. But, I still think it has to be up to the individual of how they feel most comfortable dealing with it. I wish you the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 This thread begs the question. Are old people really so much more sensitive and and emotionally fragile than the rest of us? Perhaps that's just our perception of them, but not the reality at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellsybop Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Good point to ponder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozimoto Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 I have this same problem with my in-laws... I usually do the "smile and nod" thing, b/c I didn't want to 'ruin their lives' by making them think they should pray desperately for me, but last weekend they pushed me so far! My MIL said "I cry myself to sleep at night thinking that you won't be in heaven with us" and I replied "Oh, well, the bible says that in heaven, you'll be able to see me burning in hell, and it won't bother you at all, so don't cry, soon you'll forget about me!" I thought it was a great laugh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 This thread begs the question. Are old people really so much more sensitive and and emotionally fragile than the rest of us? Perhaps that's just our perception of them, but not the reality at all. My experience is this - literalists come in two types ... those who are basically loving individuals who have swallowed some terrible beliefs for whatever reason and those who are controlling and not very pleasant and have swallowed fundamentalist religion because it suits their cold heartedness. People who have been literalists for a long time but who are actually 'loving' people have generally found a way to make their beliefs 'OK' in terms of how they relate to those they love. A number of my relatives would fit this category, like my Mum, I think she would hate it if I 'pretended' to be something I was not - but she has been able to make my apostasy 'OK' by believing that 'God will draw me back to him' and that my name is 'already written in the book of life', and thus she does not not give me a hard time about it at all. In my experience older people, having had the opportunity to be influenced by fundamentalism for a significant length of time, will either have taken the 'loving' route or the 'controlling' route, so how they will respond to younger non believing relatives will vary accordingly. Either way, my advice is - Fudge the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
live and learn Posted January 15, 2008 Author Share Posted January 15, 2008 Very interesting replies. I'm at work, so I can only add a small note now. My mother does love me, and in her mind, the only way to show it is to make clear her disappointment and pain. She really believes that is the only way she can lure me away from hell. If I was still a believer, I'd do the same to my child, I'm afraid. What a horrid religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott_In_Michigan Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 I really don't know how to deal with this type of situation. My in-laws are pretty strong Baptists, and they have no clue about my deconversion. So far my wife has kindly kept it out of their business. But I imagine some day I'll either get fed up with the deception and tell them myself, or they will learn the truth about me some other way. But either way, I can already hear the subtle and not so subtle verbal nudges aimed my way in order to get me straightened out. You know, it's sad, really, that non-xtians have to put up with this type of thing. Imagine what these family members would do if you were to approach them regularly to encourage them to deconvert and free themselves of a lifetime of fear and servitude based on ridiculous beliefs. Another suggestion, one that would definitely cause some negative reaction, would be to participate in a prayer (I'm imagining x-mas or thanksgiving dinner type of situation) and add your own thoughts. "Thank you Lord for creating evil, disease, and sin. Thanks for the famines and droughts over the past year, and for allowing the war in Iraq to continue while you stand back and fail to intervene in the lives of those who are poor and helpless. Thanks for this wonderful meal which I am sure you magically blessed with improved flavor and nutrition just for our family. And please keep granny from passing away, because we know she is more important than those non-xtians in Africa who we are already sponsoring through an international xtian aid foundation." (I'm not serious, by the way...this is more of a rant than anything. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 This thread begs the question. Are old people really so much more sensitive and and emotionally fragile than the rest of us? Perhaps that's just our perception of them, but not the reality at all. I think it depends on the person and how well you know them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 There's a serious problem with the Christians referred to in this thread. They seem so sure of getting to heaven themselves. That's the once saved always saved belief, I suppose. They have no idea whether or not they will backslide themselves someday. There is lots of scripture for that. And there is no hope for the person who has tasted redemption and returns to sin. Thus, even if a person believes in OSAS theology, if that person returns to sin, just saying sorry is not going to get him or her to heaven. The dog has returned to its vomit and the pig to its mud bath. Jesus condemns such people. ************************* That's straight from Old Order Mennonite sermons. And they're just as valid as Baptist sermons. The most sensible answer I've seen in this thread is that we all go to the same place when we die. We'll be dead. That is where we go. Even though Heather's Mom probably means heaven I'm sure Heather doesn't mean that. At least I wouldn't. When my mother died we had her body buried in the cemetary of the church she attended more than fifty years. That's where she went. I sure don't like the idea of her watching me from some realm in the sky. I am very comfortable with the idea that she's dead and will stay dead. I'm sorry for all she sacrificed in her life for the hope that she would one day have a much better life in heaven. However, I tried to help her and no help was accepted. She wanted to live her life her own way so I had to let go and I did. She was seriously bothered by the way I lived my life. She was very effective in sending me on guilt trips because of it. With time I learned how to get off the trips fairly easily but not getting on in the first place is ideal. I really don't have any answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 My dad is 79 and my step-mother is 85, both strong southern baptists. I don't argue with them. If they want to pray for my soul that is fine with me because they don't hate me and are not praying for my death. Anyone who wishes me well is ok in my book. My parents are of the age where they don't want to spend the grey cells to figure religion out and I'm having to already tell them my name during the day. I do not want to upset people about religion unless they are in my face about it or make a comment and then act like I am in agreement with it, if I say nothing. That's when I really get POd. I'm not out to change their minds, I am protecting mine from religion. Some people are so set in their own way of thinking, they will never change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
live and learn Posted January 16, 2008 Author Share Posted January 16, 2008 Somehow I think the lie you tell your mom to help her feel better will in turn be awfully damaging to you and your own conscience. You have a very good point. I don't want to have dishonesty be a part of me. But in my mind, I think, a little white lie outweighs causing my mother pain. I guess I don't see the harm in it if I don't hide my disbelief from the rest of the family, or anyone else for that matter. I think of it as easing her transition out of this life, kind of like feeding ice chips to someone in hospice. Maybe I am just wussing out, though, and I may regret not being truthful later on. The writer that said "religion poisons everything" had it so right. Can't even give my mother a hug and a kiss goodbye without Jesus (who loves the little children) coming between us. Reminds me of when we were little. She'd come tuck us in to bed, and we'd sing out "Hugs and kisses!" and she'd give us them. When we got a little older, though, it was "Hugs and kisses!" from us, then she'd add "And prayers!" on to the end. Sucked the life tight out of the moment. Son of a bitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Perhaps another potential difference between fudging to older parents (like ones in their late 80's) and younger ones is that the younger ones (in general) are more likely and able to hold you to the facade of belief you've created. That, in turn, could really negatively impact your life and interfere with your family (and your own kids, if you have them). Much less likely to be a factor with older parents, but something to keep in mind at any age if it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Maybe I am just wussing out, though, and I may regret not being truthful later on. You should be fine as long as they don't ask you to lead prayer at thanksgiving dinner or something. It does suck that anyone feels they have to fudge with their parents. It indicates to me that their parents are not living and letting live if they put their kids into that boat. I was probably an asshole with my grandparents. Before my grandfather died (when he was roughly 78 - he died at 86), he pushed me about my beliefs, bugged me to go to church with him, lectured me about drinking a beer, so I wrote him a letter and laid out my unbelief and my basic problems I had with the religion. Nothing harsh, but I made it clear that I had spent a great deal of time and thought on the matter and that I could no longer believe. After that he stopped bugging me about the whole issue. He didn't stop loving me. He, I'm sure, didn't stop praying for me. He did stop asking me to church and stopped lecturing me about religion. The letter I wrote circled around the family and no one ever bugs me about religion anymore. I could be wrong, but I don't think I've ruined anyone's life or even spoiled anyone's b-day by refusing to play along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogilvy Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 I have this same problem with my in-laws... I usually do the "smile and nod" thing, b/c I didn't want to 'ruin their lives' by making them think they should pray desperately for me, but last weekend they pushed me so far! My MIL said "I cry myself to sleep at night thinking that you won't be in heaven with us" and I replied "Oh, well, the bible says that in heaven, you'll be able to see me burning in hell, and it won't bother you at all, so don't cry, soon you'll forget about me!" I thought it was a great laugh! that was a very good point you made, because horrible though it sounds, thats exactly what bible doctrines taken to their logical conclusion, mean. there cant be suffering in heaven, so it wont bother them. thats another one of the things which dont make sense to me any more about christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
live and learn Posted January 16, 2008 Author Share Posted January 16, 2008 Maybe I am just wussing out, though, and I may regret not being truthful later on. You should be fine as long as they don't ask you to lead prayer at thanksgiving dinner or something. Wouldn't that be a trip! After the Sanskrit blessing by the semi-Buddhist yoga teacher that did our wedding, that won't be happening in the near future, I'm sure. I've got 7 fundie siblings who can spit that drivel out at the drop of a hat. "Oh Lord God, we just come to You now, Lord God, in the name of Jesus who died for us, Lord God, and we just thank You, Father, for the food we are about to receive from Your bounty, Lord, and Father, just bless the hands that have prepared this food, Lord God, that they might grow ever closer to You. We pray in Your name, Lord God, by the power of the blood you shed for us, and we just lift this up to you, Hallelujah. Amen" Wow, I guess I can spit it out too. Makes it easier that they have a very limited vocabulary. Your comment about "not playing along" reminded me of the saying "You've got to go along to get along". Maybe I've got that wrong, but it sure seems to fit when you look at religious nuts. "If you don't play my way, I won't play, so there!!! Nyah nyah nyah!" Sheeesh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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