kozimoto Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 It is a long story, but brevity is the key to life... My husband is xian still - has been all his life, whereas I am a teenage convert who has just returned to atheism. My husband was initially upset, but has since defended my stance in front of the pastor and family/friends. He has even warned the zealous among them not to challenge me about jesus unless they are prepared to have me demolish most of their arguments! (that made me feel really proud! Srsly!) But the vast majority of his friends and family are xian, he has known no other life, and he rarely socializes outside this network. I think maybe he is clinging to the god thing b/c it would be a total loss of network for him. Yet I know he would benefit from freeing himself from his fears (esp. of hell - indoctrinated since childhood, he is truly fearful!). Do you think attempts to de-convert family are a good idea? How have you gone about it? How would you? Any words of warning, horror stories, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Do you think attempts to de-convert family are a good idea? How have you gone about it? How would you? Any words of warning, horror stories, etc? I don't think it's a good idea at all. Why? I know you have been given the training/brainwashing to *spread* your beliefs, that's what xtianity does, it teaches you to spread the word. However, as an atheist, we do not have *any* good news to spread. There is no point, well, not from a religious point of view. Always remember, you cannot take back what you say, it gets recorded into people's memories. Why make those around you feel like you are going to hell? Why give them ammunition to think they are *better* then you? They are not going to hell because they believe since there is no hell, they likely will go to the same place you go... nowhere... OTOH if they are fundy, and causing society HARM, like many xtians do, then it might be a good idea to de-convert them. But that is a big task. It's not *just* a belief in them. It is a form of brainwashing that has been instilled in them since birth. Common sense does not work on most of them. They *might* start hating you for it. Maybe send them anon links to really good (and soft in the beginning) reading material that leads toward more practical thinking of religion. I sent off for a book "finding faith". Have not read it yet, but I understand it is a good primer for thought in a de-conversion direction. My plan is to read it, and leave it out for my xtian wife to find. She will at least "start" to read it based on the name alone. I am hoping this leads to conversation. Trick is, imo, is DON'T put them on the defensive. All sorts of strange things might happen, including them thinking you are devil possessed. BUT a slow, easy introduction to it, might be the key. My mom is recently de-converted too, but it is mostly because she thinks I am a genius (strange, but she always has...) or something, in otherwords, I *lead* my mom in many areas of thought and have for years. Out of respect for her, all my conversations about religion have been *very* gentle and *short* giving her time to think and research on her own. My wife however, is harder headed, and has a much lower (more realistic too) appraisal of my intellect. She is a work in progress. So, even though I do not recommend de-converting, I don't practice what I say. Odd right? No, it is all in the context. It's all in choosing your battles. Also, I might add, I have been EX for about 30 some odd years and am strong in my EXness. Are you? Engaging xtians WHILE being a newly deconvert might accidentally cause you to re-convert, if the people you are approaching know how to "play" you. And there are lots of others on this board, who, reading their stories, it is plain to see that de-conversion attempts are not really wise or productive. It's all in the context and situation you are in. Hope that helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozimoto Posted January 16, 2008 Author Share Posted January 16, 2008 Thanks Michael, I appreciate the insight. I'm not foolish enough to try and "preach" atheism to just everyone (a quick survey of xian posters on this site shows that everything is useless in the face of a closed mind), I just see that my husband is beginning the trip I went on 2 yrs ago, but there are more social ties to break than anything. I feel for him. Did anyone influence you in your de-conversion? Any sage friend give you a copy of the God Delusion? BTW I think atheism has good news to spread.. I know that mentally, my life has improved dramatically in the months since de-conversion, and freedom from financial or emotional slavery can't be all bad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Thanks Michael, I appreciate the insight. I'm not foolish enough to try and "preach" atheism to just everyone (a quick survey of xian posters on this site shows that everything is useless in the face of a closed mind), I just see that my husband is beginning the trip I went on 2 yrs ago, but there are more social ties to break than anything. I feel for him. Did anyone influence you in your de-conversion? Any sage friend give you a copy of the God Delusion? BTW I think atheism has good news to spread.. I know that mentally, my life has improved dramatically in the months since de-conversion, and freedom from financial or emotional slavery can't be all bad! I am a strong believer in facts, common sense and logic. That mindset was the biggest factor in my deconversion. I arrived at the conclusion xtianity was crap long before I read any books about it. The only "good news" about atheism is being delusion free. And yes, a byproduct of delusionless life is a "better life" imo, but it's not as attractive to some as getting a spot in the great hotel in the sky when you die. Fear of death is ultimately the source of religion, and it's in the back of many xtians minds, it's hard to "compete" with that, and fear is hard to overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoustonHorn Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Books on the history of Christianity and religion in general helped me a lot along the way. Plus they are fairly non confronting to those still in Christianity. My wife - still Christian, but not as fundy as she used to be - seemed a little taken back by Misquoting Jesus but didn't have a problem with Lost Christianities even though they're written by the same author and on very similar topics. Although she hasn't read either. If I had started reading the God Delusion that may have caused some issues. And I'm of the belief that deconversion is a decision she'll have to come to by herself. Truthfully if she never does that's okay too. It's her beliefs. She respects mine and I respect hers which is how I feel it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 kozimoto, if your husband is defending and praising you then you are already twenty steps ahead in the game. Sounds like he's accepted you so just accept him where he is at and let him find his own path. I guarantee the questions are in the back of his mind...they'll come out to play someday. It sounds like you're wanting him to deconvert partly so you won't be alone in the sea of Xians? Is that somewhat accurate? I can sympathize with that, but I figure that having him back you up is worth its weight in gold in such a situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Hi there kozimoto. Welcome to the fora. First off - that's awesome that your spouse supports you in the way he does. It says a lot about him that he was willing and able to defend you to the pastor, despite his own beliefs on the matter. Being in a couple where one of you is religious and the other isn't can be tricky, so it's great that he's got your back in the way that he does. As for whether or not to try and deconvert someone, well - maybe, and maybe not. For the most part I don't personally go around trying to deconvert my believing friends or family. I find that it makes relationships easier overall if we're able to acknowledge our differences and live with them. Plus I think an unwanted or uninvited deconversion attempt is just as rude and invasive as unwanted proselytization from a believer. It's one thing if a friend or family member wants to sit down and discuss, but quite another if I start acting as if I know better than they do what they need in their life or their beliefs, and try to deconvert them For Their Own Good. So I'd say to just sort of sit back, work on your own thoughts and ideas and beliefs, and if hubby's interested, hey - great! You can discuss then. I don't think you should have to hide anything you're reading or thinking about, nor do I think that you shouldn't speak up on something if you disagree, but I wouldn't try to deconvert spouse. If it's going to happen I'm sure it'll happen quietly, on its own. In any event, good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no-one Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Hi Kozimoto, welcome to the boards It's great that your husband is so supportive, I know a lot of people on here have had trouble with their spouses. My husband deconverted a while before I did, before I even met him. He was brought up JW, I was brought up anglican. He did give me a nudge in the right direction but never directly tried to deconvert me. At the time I met him I still kind of believed and had even started going to church again after a few years break. We never argued about it but he told me a lot of stuff that happened in the bible that I'd never heard of (anglicans concentrate mostly on the NT) that I didn't like at all. Also I read a great book about cults and deprogramming, here's a link- http://www.amazon.com/Combatting-Cult-Mind...9551&sr=8-1 The book mainly is about cults like the moonies but in reading it I saw a lot of parallels between cults and high-control groups and the church. I don't think I ever would have read the God Delusion at the time (although I have read it now and loved it!) but reading a book about cults seemed pretty harmless. It definitely made me question a lot about the church though! I think *trying* to deconvert your husband might not be the best way to go, as others have said it might make him defensive and drive a wedge between you. I think it's just something he'll have to find on his own but he sounds like an open-minded guy so you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandatory Chaos Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 I think in this case the adage of , the best offensive is a good defense, really applies. Let them question you and answer back by making them question what they believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Hi there, I deconverted before my hubs ... we both began moving away from literalism at pretty much the same time - but there was a period of time when he was not reaching the same conclusions as me and I became really keen for him to catch up and sort of pushed him ... I later came to regret this because I think it made it an even more painful experience for him than it was for me ... becauuse I didn't leave him to go at his own pace. In terms of people who made a difference to my own deconversion - it was the expereince of being loved, valued and accepted by non religious and atheist thinkers - despite my 'whacky' christian beliefs that had the most impact on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellsybop Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 I've felt the incredible urge to try to deconvert the people I know too. But, I know that pushing the issues will put them on a defense. If conversation arises about religion, I will speak my opinion and belief. Sometimes they will question my answer and it opens a door to a more healthy way of communication. And as for your husband.... Once a person starts thinking... it usually turns out for the best. Questioning leads to answers. So, just hang in there.. and try to control the urge to preach! LOL We can't save the world overnight, but one step at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Welcome to the boards. All the posters gave good advice, Michael especially. The only thing I would add is that de-conversion has to come from ones-self. No one could have convinced me I was wrong when I was an xtian, I had to decide that for myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozimoto Posted January 17, 2008 Author Share Posted January 17, 2008 Thanks for all the advice guys! GraphicsGuy - it does suck to be alone in a sea of xians, but I have many free-thinking friends of all persuasions, so I don't feel lonely or truly alienated socially. My husband's circle of friends is quite tight and highly xian, though, and he is only just kind of venturing out of the box. I think he fears a loss of network. He is certainly afraid of incurring the disapproval that I got from his parents upon himself. He is very very afraid of hell. As a 27yr old fully mature man, I think it's really wrong that he has this incredible fear. It upsets me a lot. And that is my main reason for wanting to push him. But I really appreciate all your stories - it has helped me to relax! Lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 I was reading these posts and some thoughts floated to the top: I am lost in a town with no real friends and my only support structure is a wife who cannot stand any kind of change. I wish my wife was more receptive to my views on religion, but she cannot stand to hear anything that contradicts her way of thinking. I don't think she'll deconvert anytime soon, if ever. Who knows? Maybe life will be better down the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogilvy Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Thanks Michael, I appreciate the insight. I'm not foolish enough to try and "preach" atheism to just everyone (a quick survey of xian posters on this site shows that everything is useless in the face of a closed mind), I just see that my husband is beginning the trip I went on 2 yrs ago, but there are more social ties to break than anything. I feel for him. Did anyone influence you in your de-conversion? Any sage friend give you a copy of the God Delusion? BTW I think atheism has good news to spread.. I know that mentally, my life has improved dramatically in the months since de-conversion, and freedom from financial or emotional slavery can't be all bad! I am a strong believer in facts, common sense and logic. That mindset was the biggest factor in my deconversion. I arrived at the conclusion xtianity was crap long before I read any books about it. The only "good news" about atheism is being delusion free. And yes, a byproduct of delusionless life is a "better life" imo, but it's not as attractive to some as getting a spot in the great hotel in the sky when you die. Fear of death is ultimately the source of religion, and it's in the back of many xtians minds, it's hard to "compete" with that, and fear is hard to overcome. i agree with that statement that theres no good news in atheism. i've only recently stopped believing in the Bible, and i wish i hadnt. i mean, iwish i still had the hope and trust and purpose in life i used to have. nothing better has replaced it. but i just dont believe in it any more. i didnt try to not believe, it just came about, and surprised me more than anyone. i dont like talking to my christian friends about it. i dont want to upset them or lead them to the position i'm in now. theres really no point. of course there are good, liberating aspects of leaving the religion, and i'm really enjoying some things i didnt feel i should engage in when i was a believer, i.e. worldly things. but i still have a spiritual side, and i'm too set in my thinking that 'all the other religions are false', to want to get into anything else. i hate the fact that i no longer have the hope of seeing my mother in heaven. i like the fact that i probably wont go to hell because there probably isnt such a place. but i'm still not sure enough about that to really feel good. and now i'm scared of dying, which i never used to be. i always believed, since childhood, that i'd be going to heaven, and i often looked forward to that. its all very strange and confusing and doesnt feel real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no-one Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 i hate the fact that i no longer have the hope of seeing my mother in heaven. i like the fact that i probably wont go to hell because there probably isnt such a place. but i'm still not sure enough about that to really feel good. and now i'm scared of dying, which i never used to be. i always believed, since childhood, that i'd be going to heaven, and i often looked forward to that. its all very strange and confusing and doesnt feel real. That's strange, I became less scared of dying when I stopped believing in heaven and hell because I figured that just being dead would be like being asleep and would be way better than burning in hell. I find it interesting that you said you won't see your mum in heaven but you 'probably' won't go to hell. Have you had a very recent deconversion? It sounds like you haven't come to terms with it yet. Truthfully my life has been better in every way once I had things clear in my mind. I don't miss the spiritual side of it at all. It did take me a while though, it was a gradual thing over a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott_In_Michigan Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Kozi, it sounds like your husband is pretty cool if he goes so far to defend you! I would suggest not making a concerted effort to deconvert him, or anyone else for that matter, unless they specifically ask for it. If you were to start pushing your beliefs, your opinions, and your knowledge upon your husband, it would be no different than when a Christian is trying to convince you that you're in the err about leaving Christianity. Maybe, at the most, you can tell him that if and when he starts to feel a need to explore the realm outside Christianity, that you'll be very willing to help him on that journey. Let the timing be his own, not one of your choosing. I think it's very important than any person, regardless of what they believe and/or what they are interested in pursuing spiritually, be able to do so when they are ready and on their own terms. Being introduced into a religion or belief system any other way is only going to lead to a sense of being pressured or problems later on. Just imagine if everyone on this forum had been able to grow up in a spiritually neutral (for lack of a better term) home, and had the chance to be educated on any religions we wished before decided what to believe in? Things would be much different! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Should you try to deconvert someone? Wow. I'm more like, how do I adjust to, or get rid of, some of the hostility my deconversion brought with it? I've had to cut some relationships and I know others who have been divorced because of it. As you read more threads on here you'll find a common theme is how to deal with family who becomes abusive and hateful when they find out we have deconverted. So it just seems best to appreciate a good thing when you've got it. Like others have said, your husband shows all the signs of deconverting. It does have to come from within, like a flower. If you force it from the outside you damage it. Be there to answer his questions. Be willing to discuss things when/if he wants to. But don't actively push it. That said, if he's going to deconvert, it's going to happen regardless of what you do or don't do--just like the flower. If he's not going to, nothing you do can make a difference. That's the way I see it. Conditions seem to make a difference as to how early or late in life we deconvert and perhaps they also determine who deconverts, but I believe much depends on the individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoeticLicence Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Welcome Kozi! I echo the basic advice you're getting on this thread. I, too, have been tempted to try to win over a friend or two in my deconversion process. Then I realized; I don't have a dog in this fight. That's the beauty of escaping xtianity... the fight is over and it's time to relax in the freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Always remember, You've left christianity. Christianity indoctrinates it's followers to indoctrinate in turn. You may have left the religion, but some of the behaviors of that religion have not left you. It's natural to feel that knee-jerk reaction to go and share your new "good news", but remember, YOU did not come to your afgnosticcism, or your athiesm because of someone talking to you about it. You had to learn, you had to let new ideas marinate in your head for a while.... CRITICAL!! You are doing enough for your husband by loving him, and showing, by example, that you are a decent and moral person without religion (something religious people are highly convinced is impossible). Don't ask him to read anything. Don't set your reading material out on the coffee table. But don't hide your materials under the bed either. Just put them on the bookshelf where they belong. You husband, being an adult in his own right, can choose for himself if he wants to read anything. And if he DOES pick something up to read, DON'T launch into deconversion mode. Let him ask questions. You didn't drop christianity overnight. Don't expect someone else to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogilvy Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 i hate the fact that i no longer have the hope of seeing my mother in heaven. i like the fact that i probably wont go to hell because there probably isnt such a place. but i'm still not sure enough about that to really feel good. and now i'm scared of dying, which i never used to be. i always believed, since childhood, that i'd be going to heaven, and i often looked forward to that. its all very strange and confusing and doesnt feel real. That's strange, I became less scared of dying when I stopped believing in heaven and hell because I figured that just being dead would be like being asleep and would be way better than burning in hell. I find it interesting that you said you won't see your mum in heaven but you 'probably' won't go to hell. Have you had a very recent deconversion? It sounds like you haven't come to terms with it yet. Truthfully my life has been better in every way once I had things clear in my mind. I don't miss the spiritual side of it at all. It did take me a while though, it was a gradual thing over a few years. yes i'm a very recent de-convert. in fact, i'm still in the middle of it. i dont enjoy it really, because i feel like i've lost more than i've gained. but it wasnt a choice, it just happened that something didnt make sense about christianity, and that led me to think the bible must be incorrect, which was a disappointment. i know the bible is horrible in many ways, but for some reason i was blind to that fact for the last 20 yrs and the idea of 'walking in the spirit' made sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 but for some reason i was blind to that fact for the last 20 yrs and the idea of 'walking in the spirit' made sense to me. Well, don't feel bad. It made sense to most of us as well for quite a long time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no-one Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 That's strange, I became less scared of dying when I stopped believing in heaven and hell because I figured that just being dead would be like being asleep and would be way better than burning in hell. I find it interesting that you said you won't see your mum in heaven but you 'probably' won't go to hell. Have you had a very recent deconversion? It sounds like you haven't come to terms with it yet. Truthfully my life has been better in every way once I had things clear in my mind. I don't miss the spiritual side of it at all. It did take me a while though, it was a gradual thing over a few years. yes i'm a very recent de-convert. in fact, i'm still in the middle of it. i dont enjoy it really, because i feel like i've lost more than i've gained. but it wasnt a choice, it just happened that something didnt make sense about christianity, and that led me to think the bible must be incorrect, which was a disappointment. i know the bible is horrible in many ways, but for some reason i was blind to that fact for the last 20 yrs and the idea of 'walking in the spirit' made sense to me. Give it time, mate, it will get better. Thinking about it logically, if there is no heaven then there's no hell either, right? Have you read any books on the subject yet? The God Delusion really helped me out, I haven't had any of what I call my 'crises of non-faith' (where I used to think 'what if it's all true?') since I read it. It takes a long time to shake it off but you're in the right place to get support from people who have been through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogilvy Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 i turned on the radio this morning, sunday, and there was a sermon on, so i decided to listen to it, curious as to how i wuld feel about it, as i havent been to church for a while. it was a very strange feeling to hear it. part of me wanted to pay attention to it. part of me (a lot!) thought the way the guy was presenting it wa silly. i was hearing 'salesmanship'. i was hearing 'what he'd learned in bible college about how to make sermons interesting'. and i was hearing a stereotyped way of putting things. maybe thats petty of me, but it always had irked me, because i thought it was meant to be about the Holy Spirit. anyway it reminded me of how i think 80% of what is talked about christianity is 'added' stuff, not from the bible itself directly. even so, i wouldnt like to influence anyone else to leae christianity, especially my grown children. i feel very guilty about the fact that i brought them up according to principles i now believe had no basis, and i feel guilty about the fact that now i dont believe in it myself. there are not many people i would feel ok to discuss it with. its not like theres much reward for de-converting. i think i was happier before, except that i found church itself boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 I'll echo what has been said about your hubby. Thumbs up to him for sticking up for you. In the past 18 months, I've discarded my beliefs - slowly, but surely. I've only been able to discuss this with my Christian wife for the past three months and at first, it was very difficult for both of us. She certainly doesn't agree with my thoughts and feelings, but I can understand that because I've been where she is. There is no way in the world I'd try to change her point of view. As I said, I've been where she is. No one could have made me renounce my faith. Only my own questions (and the incredible lack of answers) could get me to the point to where I would even consider that my beliefs were not 100% truth. I've chosen a definite path a few times in my life now. But I chose. You've chosen a path. Allow your hubby to choose his. And good luck to the both of you!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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