Challenge For Christians, Part 153,371

[SWIM]

It is very personal and internal in the spirit.

 

Change the bolded word "spirit" to "mind" and you are getting warm.

[Deva]

Anyway, when discussing with another who will remain nameless that I was having a hard time visiting this site as the people seemed so hateful and vulgar in the Lion's Den, I was reminded that we are called to mingle silently as Jesus set an example of touching others that most of religion has failed to learn, thus my mention of being martyrs or witnesses. I guess you might say that this is still very close to trying to reconvert, but I do not look at it that way. Salvation is between God and the individual, but our part is to not separate from others so that ignorance will not win the day.

 

John

 

 

You say "mingle silently". Accent the word SILENTLY and that might be a good idea for you, Kratos. As far as "ignorance winning the day," do you really think your backward and ignorant comments are going to enlighten us?

 

Your highly peculiar way of interpreting the Bible doesn't impress anyone here.

 

Tell me, in your opinion are women as fully human as men?

[Kratos]

Tell me, in your opinion are women as fully human as men?

 

Deva,

 

I have dealt with this in great detail before, but you seem to believe that it is fair to bring it back up on every subject I participate in to negate the message by attacking the messenger.

 

Once again, of course I believe women are fully human. Where do you get this stuff? The Bible lays out an order between husbands and wives within a marriage between believers who choose to live according to God's plan. It, also, lays out certain order within Christian churches in the first century. That is all. If Jesus is not your Lord or you are not married in a Christian marriage that acknowledges His Lordship or you are not a member in a first century church, these admonitions should have nothing to do with you.

 

Why do you all keep asking me to "SHUT UP" or to "KEEP SILENT" and then ask me questions that if I ignore I am disrespecting you all by my silence? Is it just your attempt in making this an impossible dialogue between ex-Christians and those who still believe? Does it make you feel better about yourselves and your life decisions to try to make others appear foolish?

 

John

 

Now I should be able to predict Ruby telling me I am a liar for answering your question.

[Deva]

Once again, of course I believe women are fully human.

 

That's good Kratos.

 

Where do you get this stuff?

 

From reading some of your previous posts.

 

If Jesus is not your Lord or you are not married in a Christian marriage that acknowledges His Lordship or you are not a member in a first century church, these admonitions should have nothing to do with you.

 

Good. I am so glad they don't.

 

Is it just your attempt in making this an impossible dialogue between ex-Christians and those who still believe? Does it make you feel better about yourselves and your life decisions to try to make others appear foolish?

 

No, not my intent. I do apologize for telling you to keep silent. You do have the right to air your opinions. Feel better about myself? No. If you write foolish things, you appear foolish without anyone's help.

[Kratos]

No, not my intent. I do apologize for telling you to keep silent. You do have the right to air your opinions. Feel better about myself? No. If you write foolish things, you appear foolish without anyone's help.

 

Thank you, Deva. I appreciate the ability to own my own foolishness.

 

John

[Neon Genesis]

Neon,

 

It is relational and not informational.

Again, see my married couple analogy earlier in this thread for the importance in having information in a relationship. And if being relational is more important than information, then why did God give us minds to think rationally with anyway since according to your logic, God wants us to shut up and stop asking questions? Sounds like a cheap brainwashing tactic if you ask me.

 

I am a part of the Kingdom as I am faithful to what I believe He wants me to do. I am not judged by being right over every crossed t and dotted i. Agreement with the Lord is a heart condition where rebellion is the opposite. The Kingdom is within in the heart and not without in the head.

See my above question.

 

Now, if you still think I have not answered your questions, perhaps you would make it easy for me and present them in a list of one sentence questions that are numbered. I really cannot figure out what you are asking as my answers never seem to hit the mark.

 

John

Well, you could start with answering these questions. 1.If the bible's verses were clear on any of their meaning, then why would we be having this discussion in the first place as to the meaning of the verses we were discussing in previous posts?

 

2.And if the bible isn't clear on the meaning of any of its verses, then how can you claim that there is a right way or wrong way to read the bible?

 

3.If there is no right way or wrong way of reading the bible, why are you continuing to insist that my interpretations and your fellow Christians' interpretations of the scriptures is wrong?

 

4.If there is no right way or wrong way to interpret God's message, then how can believers in God expect non-believers to believe in God?

 

5.If God really cared so much that we believed in him, why didn't he make his message clearer and leave behind more clear evidence of his existence?

 

6.And do not start talking about how God will prove his existence eventually to everyone in the future. I am not asking about God in the future. I am asking about the here and now.

[Kratos]

1.If the bible's verses were clear on any of their meaning, then why would we be having this discussion in the first place as to the meaning of the verses we were discussing in previous posts?

 

I acknowledged that the Bible verses are not clear to the natural man or the carnal mind. God says that He has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise in this world. It is meant to be a closed book that cannot be understood correctly until we grow up spiritually and can think like God thinks instead of the way that our natural brains see things.

 

2.And if the bible isn't clear on the meaning of any of its verses, then how can you claim that there is a right way or wrong way to read the bible?

 

Because God is not schizophrenic or just babbling nonsense. There is a right way to understand every word of the Bible, but no man has fully grown in God enough to fully understand all of it yet. This is why those who are wise in God know that they have only scratched the surface and are everyday ready to be proven wrong by the Holy Spirit and to replace what we have believed with what He believes. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are higher than our ways.

 

3.If there is no right way or wrong way of reading the bible, why are you continuing to insist that my interpretations and your fellow Christians' interpretations of the scriptures is wrong?

 

I do not insist anything. I just share what I believe as you share what you believe. This is how we learn from one another and remain teachable.

 

4.If there is no right way or wrong way to interpret God's message, then how can believers in God expect non-believers to believe in God?

 

No one ever believed in God because they lost an argument or a debate. Belief in God is a gift of God given as He wills according to His purpose. When I finally realized that the faith to believe was a gift from God and that only the Holy Spirit can convict of sin and cause someone to believe is when I stopped trying to evangelize. Jesus said that He had chosen those around Him and they had not chosen Him. I do not think it has changed today.

 

5.If God really cared so much that we believed in him, why didn't he make his message clearer and leave behind more clear evidence of his existence?

 

It says in proverbs that it is the way of God to conceal a thing and the way of kings to search it out. He is after our heart and not just our agreement in our head. He is trying to make us spiritual and not just right. This means we have to let go of our brains as the only means of knowing about God and learn to take heed to our spirits because He is a spirit and seeks those who will worship Him in spirit and truth. To use more acceptable language to the non-religious, God is better know intuitively and subconsciously than with the intellect part of our brains.

 

6.And do not start talking about how God will prove his existence eventually to everyone in the future. I am not asking about God in the future. I am asking about the here and now.

 

Those who set their hearts to know Him will grow in their knowledge of God if they do not faint. I understand why many faint in their pursuit of God as I have gone through times in my life when He seemed so far away and even not there. But, if we faint not, He always makes Himself known again. He will never give up on us and He will always remain faithful even when we give up on Him and become faithless. He fully understands that we are flesh and knows our make-up. The truth is as I understand it is that He is far easier to get along with than most Christians make Him out to be.

 

John

[Ouroboros]

I acknowledged that the Bible verses are not clear to the natural man or the carnal mind. God says that He has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise in this world. It is meant to be a closed book that cannot be understood correctly until we grow up spiritually and can think like God thinks instead of the way that our natural brains see things.

I have such a hard time with excuses like that. Consider that a low intelligence will understand verses wrong, or that a child will not understand it at all, but you have to study and get it explained from someone who is "learned" (and in a sense "wise") to understand it, but the ones that are really wise consider the verses strange or stupid, and the excuse is that it is so because the wise are to be made fools. What about the "learned" teachers? Are they not "wise"? Or are the dumb or as children and yet they can understand it? To me, it sounds like you have to be clever in finding explanations where no explanations exists, and it has nothing to do with making fools out of the wise. It requires some intelligence and some research and reading and listening to other "educated" people to get it, and that means it wasn't really hidden from the wise and only made available to the fools of the world.

 

To me it proves that the Bible isn't really that accessible to the kids or the fools of the world, but only to those who chose to deny reality and make up stuff to make it fit. Do you see what I'm saying here?

 

Or let me put it in simpler terms: are you a fool, and that's why you understand these verses? Or do you consider yourself somewhat intelligent, and hence your interpretation and understanding of these verses shouldn't be accessible to you? Where do you stand on this? Where are you on the dumb-intelligence scale so you can understand the Bible?

 

If it takes a fool only to understand the Bible, why aren't all Christians just blabbering fools? ... oh... yeah... I guess most of the are...

[Kratos]

Han,

 

I understand what you are saying, but I see your conclusions as erroneous. You are assuming that what I wrote and what the Bible says is that you have to have low intelligence to understand the Bible. What I was saying and I understand the Bible to be saying is that natural intelligence is irrelevent when you are talking about something that is spiritually discerned. It is like there are two totally separate receiving devices that operate on totally different wave lengths or frequencies from one another.

 

Let me share a natural example that may help to explain my understanding. Compare the difference between someone who is right brained verses someone who is left brained predominantly. Suppose you had a mathematical genius like Einstein and a gifted artist like Mozart or Michelangelo. Einstein could say that he could surely write a superior symphony to what Mozart could write since music is just mathematics. Or he could claim that he could create a greater sculpture than the Pieta since it is just about angles and curves which is just geometry afterall. I believe Einstein was a genius in one field, but I think he would fail in an attempt to surpass these artistic masters.

 

Again, the Bible must be understood with the receiver of the spirit man and cannot be understood with the natural or carnal mind. I used an inadequate term to say that it is intuitively understood or subconsciously known to use non-religious terms. It is my opinion and I am sure that you will disagree that theologians are the main source of all of the confusion in Christianity today. Men who ignore the admonition of the Bible they study by trying to unlock its mysteries through the exercise of the carnal mind instead of communication with the Living God through His Holy Spirit. Studying ancient cultures or dead languages only replace the revelation of God with man devised theories and conclusions. Jesus said that flesh and blood has not revealed to us who He is, but our Father in Heaven has revealed it. Our brains are just flesh and blood afterall.

 

It is not that the intellegent cannot understand the Bible, it is that the unspiritual cannot understand it. A spiritual man can also be intelligent and be very successful in other disciplines that depend upon this intellegence like the apostle Paul appears to have been. Or, they could be simple fisherman like John and Peter who were unlearned men who had been with Jesus. The only reason that the wise in this world are confounded by the wisdom of God is they think that natural intellegence is the answer to all things. It doesn't help them a bit when it comes to knowing God or His Word and this becomes a stumbling block to those who cannot suspend their brain long enough to hear and feel with their heart.

 

I think my analogy helps as the arts can be very frustrating to those who cannot quit thinking long enough to let their soul give itself to the arts. A right brained mathematician may be able to learn the mechanics of reading music and playing the piano, but he will seldom be able to create music simply because he possesses technical skills. These are two different gifts that flow from very different places in man.

 

John

[Ouroboros]

Kratos,

 

Thanks for you answer. I will read it tomorrow morning when my mind is fresh and see if I have any comments, but overall it seems to be good response.

[Grandpa Harley]

No Han, it's just his usual gibberish... one moment he's appealing to 'dead' languages to make his point, then in the next he's say that they didn't work and cannot be used as a reference... seems to me he either doesn't know what he's talking about (for instance he quotes Paul's opinions as though Jesus said them) or he's making stuff up and denying other evidences to bolster a faith he knows is just what HE wants it to be... either way, I really don't see what he thinks he's beinging to the party engaging in any conversation beyong 'What about those Dophins, eh?'

 

John,

 

your army anaolgy for the home life of the faithful is an interesting one... I'd ask you to consider this... in a fire fight who is more likely to bite the bullet, the officer or the lower ranking one? The answer is the human of the least tactical worth... you can always get more Privates and Non-Coms, but the higher ranks tend to die of old age in bed... thus your view is a nasty, brutish one, which is why I personally regard you with a level of disdain as an example of a creature not evolved, but neotenous... claiming superior knowledge while really wallowing in a sub-human mind set... and you've yet to disabuse me of that... you're worse than carnal, you are just plain vile... and your claims to superior understanding are bunk... you,sir, are a primitive, sloping fore headed, sub-red-necked moron with a better vocaulary than the rest of your kind. I would agree, you have some skills above the normal of your kind, and thus, perhaps it is where you get the idea you are superior... IMO being the better bare-arsed chimpanzee waving a stick isn't much to brag on when you're so lackingin self refelction you think you're superior to those here... and those 'godless faggots', and women... I suggest you take you nasty, ugly, solipsistic version of an evil death cult to someone who'll call you a heretic and a Universalist to get you to shut up then ban you, if you're having trouble with the banless cluster fuck this place is for your kind...

[Ouroboros]

Han,

 

I understand what you are saying, but I see your conclusions as erroneous. You are assuming that what I wrote and what the Bible says is that you have to have low intelligence to understand the Bible. What I was saying and I understand the Bible to be saying is that natural intelligence is irrelevent when you are talking about something that is spiritually discerned. It is like there are two totally separate receiving devices that operate on totally different wave lengths or frequencies from one another.

 

Let me share a natural example that may help to explain my understanding. Compare the difference between someone who is right brained verses someone who is left brained predominantly. Suppose you had a mathematical genius like Einstein and a gifted artist like Mozart or Michelangelo. Einstein could say that he could surely write a superior symphony to what Mozart could write since music is just mathematics. Or he could claim that he could create a greater sculpture than the Pieta since it is just about angles and curves which is just geometry afterall. I believe Einstein was a genius in one field, but I think he would fail in an attempt to surpass these artistic masters.

 

Again, the Bible must be understood with the receiver of the spirit man and cannot be understood with the natural or carnal mind. I used an inadequate term to say that it is intuitively understood or subconsciously known to use non-religious terms. It is my opinion and I am sure that you will disagree that theologians are the main source of all of the confusion in Christianity today. Men who ignore the admonition of the Bible they study by trying to unlock its mysteries through the exercise of the carnal mind instead of communication with the Living God through His Holy Spirit. Studying ancient cultures or dead languages only replace the revelation of God with man devised theories and conclusions. Jesus said that flesh and blood has not revealed to us who He is, but our Father in Heaven has revealed it. Our brains are just flesh and blood afterall.

 

It is not that the intellegent cannot understand the Bible, it is that the unspiritual cannot understand it. A spiritual man can also be intelligent and be very successful in other disciplines that depend upon this intellegence like the apostle Paul appears to have been. Or, they could be simple fisherman like John and Peter who were unlearned men who had been with Jesus. The only reason that the wise in this world are confounded by the wisdom of God is they think that natural intellegence is the answer to all things. It doesn't help them a bit when it comes to knowing God or His Word and this becomes a stumbling block to those who cannot suspend their brain long enough to hear and feel with their heart.

 

I think my analogy helps as the arts can be very frustrating to those who cannot quit thinking long enough to let their soul give itself to the arts. A right brained mathematician may be able to learn the mechanics of reading music and playing the piano, but he will seldom be able to create music simply because he possesses technical skills. These are two different gifts that flow from very different places in man.

 

John

I can understand your argument, and it fits into the view that Christianity is a religion of revelation. Understanding through spiritual revelation rather than logical reasoning, and that's the reason why people who use logic (which to some Christians is eternal) find Christianity many times faulty and lacking. In other words, don't use logic, only let this fictitious (in my opinion) Holy Spirit make you understand or believe it.

 

From most discussions I've had with Christians that visit this site, I must say that most of the time the excuses (apologies) that exists are just techniques in spinning. It's very Sophistic in a sense, but the kind isn't paid monetary for their efforts to twist the words, but paid in some emotional bond to a social system that makes you feel good and safe about the future, and they feel the need to defend that safety. Basically I don't believe it's a spirit that gives the "knowledge" or deep understanding of the Bible, but a mind extremely skilled in making things up.

 

Regarding where the confusion comes from, I agree it comes from theologians, but I disagree that they're the only source. I've found more diversified and strange beliefs in the undercurrent of religious activity, rather than the leading theological. Many have started on a journey to understand and know more about the Bible they love, and they become theologians and they lose their faith or they become very liberal in their views, just because they see how fallible the Bible is. And I've noticed you're kind of going that way - more liberal than most -, and you might one day find yourself in one of those groups.

 

But still, thanks for straighten out the obvious contradiction.

[Grandpa Harley]

It made sense?

[Ouroboros]

No Han, it's just his usual gibberish... one moment he's appealing to 'dead' languages to make his point, then in the next he's say that they didn't work and cannot be used as a reference... seems to me he either doesn't know what he's talking about (for instance he quotes Paul's opinions as though Jesus said them) or he's making stuff up and denying other evidences to bolster a faith he knows is just what HE wants it to be... either way, I really don't see what he thinks he's beinging to the party engaging in any conversation beyong 'What about those Dophins, eh?'

Actually, he made a correct argument (IMO), even though I disagree with parts of it.

 

Christianity is mainly a religion of revelations, where the follower gets the "true" understanding and knowledge from "the holy spirit" rather than reasoning. He made that very clear, and I think it's a correct way of describing their religion. However, the existence of this holy spirit and how it supposedly communicates etc, is questionable. For instance, if the holy spirit is revealing the truth about the Bible, how come there are 33,000 different denominations, and not just one Holy Spirit Church? The system is obviously not working to unify the faithful, but rather it's dividing them more than any other religion in the world. I think the Christianity probably beats every other religion in number of different opinions and sects. It's evident that no God or Holy Spirit is guiding them, since the unity is lacking. But on the other hand, it could be argued that this is what God wants ("electrolytes, that's what the plants crave"), and that God is leading all different religions and even non-believers in different paths, because it really doesn't matter what faith you have (or lack), but that God somehow is a mosaic of human experiences.

 

It's clear that John, like any other Christian, use his imagination to overcome obstacles in the Bible. After all, the whole religion is based on believing in a fantasy and it requires quite a bit of imagination to visualize all the stories in their book. And these images are his symbols to interpret the world.

 

And of course, when I make a comment that some Christian make a good point or argument, it doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with their points.

[Ouroboros]

It made sense?

Yes. I've learned the secret language.

 

I know what he was saying. Maybe somehow I'm developing an ability to translate between christianeese and normal?

[Grandpa Harley]

I used to be able to do it, but found it too akin to swimming naked in a pipe of raw sewage and decayed offal to continue... viscous, claustrophobic and foul... and you spend a month trying to lose the taste and stench...

[Ouroboros]

I used to be able to do it, but found it too akin to swimming naked in pipe of raw sewage and decayed offal to continue... viscous, claustrophobic and foul... and you spend a month trying to lose the taste and stench...

 

True. But, I think I understood clearly what Kratos said, without saying that I always do.

[HuaiDan]

Han, you speak christeltongue!

[Ouroboros]

Han, you speak christeltongue!

... (me running to the mirror to check I don't have a scar on my forehead)... Does this mean I'll get a wand?

 

 

/ooops. Sorry, this is the Colosseum. My bad./

[Kratos]

No Han, it's just his usual gibberish... one moment he's appealing to 'dead' languages to make his point, then in the next he's say that they didn't work and cannot be used as a reference... seems to me he either doesn't know what he's talking about (for instance he quotes Paul's opinions as though Jesus said them) or he's making stuff up and denying other evidences to bolster a faith he knows is just what HE wants it to be... either way, I really don't see what he thinks he's beinging to the party engaging in any conversation beyong 'What about those Dophins, eh?'

 

John,

 

your army anaolgy for the home life of the faithful is an interesting one... I'd ask you to consider this... in a fire fight who is more likely to bite the bullet, the officer or the lower ranking one? The answer is the human of the least tactical worth... you can always get more Privates and Non-Coms, but the higher ranks tend to die of old age in bed... thus your view is a nasty, brutish one, which is why I personally regard you with a level of disdain as an example of a creature not evolved, but neotenous... claiming superior knowledge while really wallowing in a sub-human mind set... and you've yet to disabuse me of that... you're worse than carnal, you are just plain vile... and your claims to superior understanding are bunk... you,sir, are a primitive, sloping fore headed, sub-red-necked moron with a better vocaulary than the rest of your kind. I would agree, you have some skills above the normal of your kind, and thus, perhaps it is where you get the idea you are superior... IMO being the better bare-arsed chimpanzee waving a stick isn't much to brag on when you're so lackingin self refelction you think you're superior to those here... and those 'godless faggots', and women... I suggest you take you nasty, ugly, solipsistic version of an evil death cult to someone who'll call you a heretic and a Universalist to get you to shut up then ban you, if you're having trouble with the banless cluster fuck this place is for your kind...

 

GH,

 

I thought staying out of the Lion's Den and participating in the Colosseum would free me of such "more evolved" postings. Wrong again.

 

John

[Kratos]

Han,

 

All I can share is my own life and experiences. I tried to study and understand the Bible just from an intellectual level and it made no sense to me. When the Lord came to me and I submitted to His Lordship in my life, I got up off the floor with the ability to hear His voice and to understand His Word. It was not until much later that I saw in the Bible the explanation for this that He had "lit my candle" or regenerated my spirit so I now had the right "receiver" to understand things of the spirit which I clearly did not have before. I feel like the man who was asked after receiving His sight if Jesus was a sinner or not. He said that He did not know all the details to satisfy the skeptics, he just knew that he was once blind and now he sees. Experience is hard to dismiss without dismissing the validity and verasity of the one who reports their experiences in life.

 

I try not to do this to others. I just receive that this was indeed their experience though not my own.

 

John

[Neon Genesis]

I acknowledged that the Bible verses are not clear to the natural man or the carnal mind. God says that He has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise in this world. It is meant to be a closed book that cannot be understood correctly until we grow up spiritually and can think like God thinks instead of the way that our natural brains see things.

1.So, in other words, only spiritually-minded Christians can clarify the meaning of these verses? So, if only spiritually-minded people can clarify the meaning of those verses, then why can't Christians agree on what their meaning is?

 

2.Or are you saying that that those aren't "real Christians" but you're a "true Christian" and only you can clarify their meaning because you're "spiritually minded" but those other Christians aren't?

 

3.I thought the bible said that God was not the author of confusion but now you're saying God is purposely confounding the wise in this world? How can God not be the author of confusion but purposely confound the wise of the world?

 

4. If God is purposely confounding the wise in this world, why did Jesus pray for those IN THIS WORLD, to be united?

 

5. If God is purposely confounding us to not understand the meaning of those verses, then it was God's will for us to not understand. If you really believe in God, why are you defying God's will by trying to get us to understand?

 

6.If God does not wish people to understand the word of God intellectually, then why did God give us minds to use to think for ourselves in the first place?

 

7.. Didn't Jesus say for us not to bury our talents but to use them like in the parable of the talents? If our talents are intellectual, why is God telling us to bury our talent of intellect and not understand the word of God with the talent of intellect he gave us?

 

 

 

Because God is not schizophrenic or just babbling nonsense. There is a right way to understand every word of the Bible, but no man has fully grown in God enough to fully understand all of it yet.

8.So, why do you think your understanding of the bible that the bible cannot be understood is the correct way to understand the bible if the bible is not meant to be understood? And I thought God was not supposed to be the author of confusion according to the bible?

 

This is why those who are wise in God know that they have only scratched the surface and are everyday ready to be proven wrong by the Holy Spirit and to replace what we have believed with what He believes. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are higher than our ways.

6.If God's ways are above our ways, then why are you attempting to explain God's ways to us?

 

9.Isn't explaining God's ways to be unexplainable in fact an explanation about God?

 

10. Therefore, by telling us that God's ways are above our ways, aren't you implying you know what God's ways are?

 

I do not insist anything. I just share what I believe as you share what you believe. This is how we learn from one another and remain teachable.

11. Then why do you keep making assumptions that you know why there is so much confusion in Christianity or made assumptions as to why I don't believe in it earlier in the thread if you aren't insisting anything? It's funny how you keep saying you aren't insisting anything but then turn around and say other Christians are wrong.

 

 

 

No one ever believed in God because they lost an argument or a debate. Belief in God is a gift of God given as He wills according to His purpose.

12. If it's God's purpose for us not to believe, then why are you defying God by trying to get us to believe that your way of reading the bible is correct?

 

When I finally realized that the faith to believe was a gift from God and that only the Holy Spirit can convict of sin and cause someone to believe is when I stopped trying to evangelize.

13.Then, why are you still evangelizing to us?

 

Jesus said that He had chosen those around Him and they had not chosen Him. I do not think it has changed today.

14.Again, if Jesus really cared that we believed in him, why didn't he leave indisputable physical evidence that he existed? Everyone in the world would believe in him and everyone would be united in their beliefs like Jesus prayed for IN THIS WORLD, and Christians would no longer be persecuted because then everybody would believe. It's a win-win situation for God, but he chooses not to do this for some strange reason. By not leaving indisputable psychical evidence that he existed that no one can agree on in spite of his wishes to be united IN THIS WORLD, doesn't that show Jesus doesn't care that we believe?

[Neon Genesis]

It says in proverbs that it is the way of God to conceal a thing and the way of kings to search it out. He is after our heart and not just our agreement in our head. He is trying to make us spiritual and not just right. This means we have to let go of our brains as the only means of knowing about God and learn to take heed to our spirits because He is a spirit and seeks those who will worship Him in spirit and truth. To use more acceptable language to the non-religious, God is better know intuitively and subconsciously than with the intellect part of our brains.

1. So, why did we fall away from God? You seem to keep forgetting that we are EX-CHRISTIANS, that means WE DID ALL THIS BEFORE. So, if shutting up and not asking questions is supposed to somehow magically help us have a better relationship with God, then why did we stop being Christians when we didn't think carnally when we were Christians but instead thought spiritually?

 

2. Why do you keep implying that we never thought spiritually when we were Christians?

 

3.Again, why did God give us brains if we're not supposed to use them when God said to not bury our talents?

 

 

 

Those who set their hearts to know Him will grow in their knowledge of God if they do not faint. I understand why many faint in their pursuit of God as I have gone through times in my life when He seemed so far away and even not there.

4.If you really know what it's like to "faint in our pursuit of God", then why did you make assumptions before as to why I stopped believing? I'd still like to have an apology for that rude and arrogant assumption since you seem to think you're so respectful.

 

But, if we faint not, He always makes Himself known again. He will never give up on us and He will always remain faithful even when we give up on Him and become faithless. He fully understands that we are flesh and knows our make-up.

5.So, in other words, you think it's our fault that we stopped believing? Because obviously it can't be God's fault for not leaving enough evidence in the first place?

 

The truth is as I understand it is that He is far easier to get along with than most Christians make Him out to be.

 

John

6.Wait, I thought you said earlier in your post that God purposely confused people to not understand him. If God is purposely confusing people, then how can he be easy to understand? Again, you are flip-flopping. Funny how I feel even more confused by your explanations than before when you just said God is easy to understand.

 

7.But if Christians make God confusing and it's not God's fault for being confusing by not leaving behind a clearer message, then since you're a Christian and you're confusing us, then are you admitting that you're purposely confusing us? Or maybe this is all God's purpose again? Glory!

 

8.And again, you are insisting that your way of understanding God is the only right way and that other Christians' understanding of him isn't yet they'll turn around and say the same thing about your views, once again proving to me that there is no right way to read the bible.

[Grandpa Harley]

GH,

 

I thought staying out of the Lion's Den and participating in the Colosseum would free me of such "more evolved" postings. Wrong again.

 

John

 

No, here I call you a primitive rather than a "fucking savage"... and I give reasoning why you're sub-human, in my opinion, rather than the 'homo-superior' (should that be homo-spiritus divinus?) you seem to think.

 

IF you want to avoid being told you're holding back the development of the human race spreading your poison, then no one is stopping you leaving...

[Grandpa Harley]

Han,

 

All I can share is my own life and experiences. I tried to study and understand the Bible just from an intellectual level and it made no sense to me. When the Lord came to me and I submitted to His Lordship in my life, I got up off the floor with the ability to hear His voice and to understand His Word. It was not until much later that I saw in the Bible the explanation for this that He had "lit my candle" or regenerated my spirit so I now had the right "receiver" to understand things of the spirit which I clearly did not have before. I feel like the man who was asked after receiving His sight if Jesus was a sinner or not. He said that He did not know all the details to satisfy the skeptics, he just knew that he was once blind and now he sees. Experience is hard to dismiss without dismissing the validity and verasity of the one who reports their experiences in life.

 

I try not to do this to others. I just receive that this was indeed their experience though not my own.

 

John

 

This sounds so much like Berkowitz and Sutcliffe as makes no odds... but the message is 'Jesus loves you, but I'm his favourite', which is arrogance and hubris...

 

Can you tell me why you expect respect?