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Goodbye Jesus

Jesus.......isa


Guest adham

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Not all Muslims are barbaric. It's usually a cultural thing that acts like the horror scenes shown above. They are distateful and violent to my senses to see them posted here. I wish we could avoid that here. One could equally show the horrors of some dictatorships like that.

 

I don't think it is so easy to separate a persons religion from their culture, particularly when the person lives in a theocratic country. That, and I can't think of a single majority Muslim country that isn't known for its human rights violations. I think you give Islam too much credit.

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Not all Muslims are barbaric. It's usually a cultural thing that acts like the horror scenes shown above. They are distateful and violent to my senses to see them posted here. I wish we could avoid that here. One could equally show the horrors of some dictatorships like that.

 

I don't think it is so easy to separate a persons religion from their culture, particularly when the person lives in a theocratic country. That, and I can't think of a single majority Muslim country that isn't known for its human rights violations. I think you give Islam too much credit.

I don't give it credit for anything, good or bad. It's people and their culture who make the myth what it is. Those of a primative culture will make the religion justify itself, and those of a more civilized one will make it reflective of a more tolerant nature. My point. To blame the religion is to place the blame away from the source. I don't see any myth like xtianity or Islam, or communism or whatever as the cause. To blame it is to give it more credit than it's due.

 

I am just particularily senstive to disturbing imagagery as was posted here. I can't express that more powerfully than to simply say that. I see it as misplaced and offensive in this context. I'm sorry. I'm aware of injustice and cruelity. I see no point in having it thrust in my face on this forum. I'm sorry. It doesn't serve any purpose in my view.

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I don't give it credit for anything, good or bad. It's people and their culture who make the myth what it is. Those of a primative culture will make the religion justify itself, and those of a more civilized one will make it reflective of a more tolerant nature. My point. To blame the religion is to place the blame away from the source. I don't see any myth like xtianity or Islam, or communism or whatever as the cause. To blame it is to give it more credit than it's due.

 

What makes a culture primitive or civilized, what even defines the difference between the two? Obviously you are free to disagree with me, but I think it is impossible to draw a direct line from culture to religion and say that religion is a product of culture and not the other way around.

 

I think most sociologists would point out that the relationship between culture and religion is complex and it is difficult if not impossible to know who influenced the other first. I'm not even sure that, in a theocracy, one can separate them into distinct and separate entities.

 

Of course I'm not suggesting that individuals are not responsible for their own actions in a legal sense.

 

I am just particularily senstive to disturbing imagagery as was posted here. I can't express that more powerfully than to simply say that. I see it as misplaced and offensive in this context. I'm sorry. I'm aware of injustice and cruelity. I see no point in having it thrust in my face on this forum. I'm sorry. It doesn't serve any purpose in my view.

 

 

Of course I didn't post those images, but I guess on this we will just agree to disagree, I think there are very good reasons for people to see those images, most people tend to ignore these harsh realities unless they are confronted with them. I'm not saying you are one of those people, but I'm sure you will agree that many people are simply blissfully unaware that such things happen at all.

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I guess what I am getting at is that either saying "religion is the ONLY thing at fault" or saying "religion is not to blame whatsoever" are both wrong in their own way.

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I guess what I am getting at is that either saying "religion is the ONLY thing at fault" or saying "religion is not to blame whatsoever" are both wrong in their own way.

Good point.

 

Religion is an expression of human nature, which isn't always that good, and religion also feed misconceptions and hate back into the human nature. It's a vicious spiral. Both feeding each other until extremism causes terrible things to happen.

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you guys really disgust me..You berate this poor person instead of contributing..

All they wanted you to do was play the game Jesus Isa..

Here

Ill start.

 

Jesus isa guy from mexico who mows lawns for extra money..

 

Cmon guys..dont be so rude..

 

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

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I guess what I am getting at is that either saying "religion is the ONLY thing at fault" or saying "religion is not to blame whatsoever" are both wrong in their own way.

I appreciate everything you're saying. Of course I recognize the truth in this. I realize for some disturbing images do serve a purpose, and I've tried to apologize for my particular sensitivities. My partner is often caught off guard by my severe reactions to certain scenes in movies we watch together. Scenes of torture and helpless victimization are particularly acute to me. Try as she has, she can't put her finger on what I react to like this, even after 7 years together. Of course I was not pointing any fingers towards you. I know that was not your choice to bear those images in front of everyone.

 

You're point of the unclear line is well taken. At the same time I think it's important to point out that those who place the blame on the religion are missing the greater point. It's the whole meme thing. I always say man creates God in his own image and serves Him, so He can serve them. This is that symbiotic relationship of religion and society. Jesus or Allah, or YHWH can be vicious or graceful, depending. Myth allows people to see what they need to see. It is the religion that feeds it, for those who are violent, but in that it doesn't feed that to others who feed it a message of peace, one cannot say that the religion creates it. If it did, it would be a universal response.

 

Memes, or religion in this case are the collective pool of ideas that people create, and which feed people. There are as many faces to "God" as there are to societies, in existence today, and from generation to generation going back to the beginning. My point is to say Islam, or Christianity, or whatever political or religious system there is creates this in otherwise peaceable people is not entirely accurate. You can't get rid of the problem, by getting rid of the religion.

 

I'll leave it at that. I appreciate your thoughts and your respects.

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You can't get rid of the problem, by getting rid of the religion.

 

I think I agree with you.

 

One thing to think about though, is that at a certain point the religion and violence are so intertwined that, while getting rid of the religion may not get rid of the problem, one will not get rid of the problem without getting rid of the religion.

 

To put it another way, with the issues of violence in the middle east, for any of us to make the suggestion people over there stop killing women for no good reason, or whatever else. It will necessarily be taken as an attack on their religion. Could Islam be practiced in a non-violent way? I'm sure it could ( and is by some) , but try telling that to most people in Saudi-Arabia and you will have very little luck.

 

The same with fundamentalist Christians, sure there are a lot of Christians who don't preach bigotry against gay people, or suggest we teach that the flood created the grand canyon in a science class. But try telling that to Mike Huckabe and you won't get very far.

 

These people have already decided that those who don't practice their religion "their" way aren't "real" believers anyway, so it is a necessary reality that when anyone argues with these people in favor of rational thought over dogma they will view it as an attack on their religion, no matter if we mean it to be or not.

 

In the minds of those believers we ARE trying to get rid of their religion because we are advocating they get rid of things they have decided are intrinsic parts of their faith.

 

Of course it is not an impossible task, if it were we would not be where we are today, but it is also not an easy task, of course I'm sure I don't have to tell you that. :grin:

 

I always appreciate what you have to say as well, one of the reasons I hang around here is people here often give me things to think about...I'd at least like to think I do for others occasionally as well.

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You can't get rid of the problem, by getting rid of the religion.

 

But it's a step in the right direction.

 

The ideal may be 'love your neighbor'...so long as your neighbor is a virtual clone of your beliefs, but when they aren't....the ideal becomes 'kill your neighbor' pretty damn quick.

 

Religion divides people. And it enforces persecution based on differences IT has created.

 

I would create balance by posting some pictures of christian atrocities...but gee....lucky them, most of those pictures are paintings, not photos, so they kinda lose their shock value.

 

Then again....I suppose one could recall pictures from the Passion of the Christ, and recall that flaying someone to the bone like that WAS done by christians during the Inquisition.

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Adham... may I ask what kind of fundamentalist you are that doesn't believe in God? Are you sure your label is correct?

 

The evolution of ancient mythologies is a fascinating subject to me. Thanks for sharing how it has filtered into what you present here, I presume to be the Muslim beliefs. It's amazing to me how assorted and diverse popular mythologies are enmeshed and perpetuated to today, from so many past millenia, in such a pervasive manner!

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sorry we deraiild the the thread btw...

 

There were rails and I missed them! Damn needing sleep!

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obvious copy and paste from some website via IE as evidenced by the following embedded tidbit:

 

FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=

 

don't bother, save your time and energy for sex :wub:

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Not all Muslims are barbaric. It's usually a cultural thing that acts like the horror scenes shown above. They are distateful and violent to my senses to see them posted here. I wish we could avoid that here. One could equally show the horrors of some dictatorships like that.

 

I don't think it is so easy to separate a persons religion from their culture, particularly when the person lives in a theocratic country. That, and I can't think of a single majority Muslim country that isn't known for its human rights violations. I think you give Islam too much credit.

 

TBH, they had a robust attitude to 'Human Rights' long before Islam... but then, so does most of Mediterranean Europe (Turkey, Greece, Italy, South of France, and Iberia) and without pointing fingers anywhere in the Balkans and points east down to today...

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Not all Muslims are barbaric. It's usually a cultural thing that acts like the horror scenes shown above. They are distateful and violent to my senses to see them posted here. I wish we could avoid that here. One could equally show the horrors of some dictatorships like that.

 

I don't think it is so easy to separate a persons religion from their culture, particularly when the person lives in a theocratic country. That, and I can't think of a single majority Muslim country that isn't known for its human rights violations. I think you give Islam too much credit.

 

I seem to remeber having problems when I evinced the same opinion about 'Liberal' Christians... same cloth, just a nicer cut...

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Holy Fuck, this retard makes most of the Christians who come here seem like they make sense. And at least most of them actually type with their own two fingers instead of pasting some guff they copied off a website.

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Not all Muslims are barbaric. It's usually a cultural thing that acts like the horror scenes shown above. They are distateful and violent to my senses to see them posted here. I wish we could avoid that here. One could equally show the horrors of some dictatorships like that.

I deleted the post for you.

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I think there must be something 'missing' in me... I didn't even flinch...

 

And Kelli

 

The kind of outfit the OP is in... they tell them where to go and what to post... and supply the tracts... chances are he knows just enough english to create an account...

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Their culture is the result of their law, just like Christians. Where Christians brutalized the world in the past, Islamists do so now but with the addition of television and other media. One cannot replace the other in terms of respect. They both violate human rights and are guilty of crimes against humanity.

 

I do apologize for my graphicness, I'm not sensitive to violent imagery and forget that some people are. I'll get to know everyone before I post too many pics. If anyone wants to receive images by e-mail concerning some subjects I post about, ask and I'll send them to you by e-mail--I'm working on a website. In the past, as a Christian, I ran a ministry that was acquainted with the Muslim way of doing things, particularly to Christians. An Islamist is an Islamist or is not, just like a Christian either is or is not a Christian. The original poster may have been a troll but his post got me fired up. Islam cannot be separated from its law--that is it's religion and that is the way it subjugates its own people and the way in which it will subjugate the world if allowed to do so. I don't hate Islamists, I don't hate Christians--I don't trust them. Neither of them make my world a better or safer place in which to live.

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jesus.......isa

 

My brain read this a being pronounced with a really bad stereotypical Italian accent or that of Jar Jar Binks.

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Jesus isa:

 

Corpse

possible work of fiction, possibly not even ever lived

the foundation for an oppresive, muderous religion

distorted historical figure, given far too much credit

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You can't get rid of the problem, by getting rid of the religion.

 

I think I agree with you.

 

One thing to think about though, is that at a certain point the religion and violence are so intertwined that, while getting rid of the religion may not get rid of the problem, one will not get rid of the problem without getting rid of the religion.

 

To put it another way, with the issues of violence in the middle east, for any of us to make the suggestion people over there stop killing women for no good reason, or whatever else. It will necessarily be taken as an attack on their religion. Could Islam be practiced in a non-violent way? I'm sure it could ( and is by some) , but try telling that to most people in Saudi-Arabia and you will have very little luck.

Here's the secret. You'll get rid of the religion when you change the society that creates it. It's really that simple, and that difficult. Take our own country for instance. Why do you think fundamentalism exists here? How did this brand of hard-core literalist interpretation happen? Here’s an excerpt of an essay about the history of fundamentalism from here: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/f...amentalism.html (worth a read)

 

Riley threw himself into politics. Seeing liquor as the source of most urban problems, he became an outspoken advocate for prohibition. Following the adoption of the Eighteenth Amendment in 1919, Riley devoted full attention to another threat to Christian life: “the new infidelity, known as modernism.”
Opposition to modernism, both in the form of liberal theology and trends in modern culture, became the core of his new movement. The cultural clashes of World War II had intensified tensions between theological liberals and conservatives, and the time seemed right for a national anti-modernist crusade.
Riley deeply resented the frequent suggestion that only modernists were “men who really think,” and his bitterness left him itching for a fight. (GE, 35)

 

Riley invented the label “fundamentalist” and became the prime mover in the movement that took that name
. Riley, in May 1919, brought together in Philadelphia 6,000 conservative Christians for the first conference of an organization he founded, the World Christian Fundamentals Association (WCFA). In his opening speech to delegates, Riley called the gathering of like-minded Biblical literalists “an event of more historic moment than the nailing up, at Wittenberg, of Martin Luther’s Ninety-five Theses.” Riley warned delegates that mainline Protestant denominations were coming increasingly under the sway of modernism and what Riley called its “awful harvest of skepticism.” (EL, 36) (GE, 31)
The only true path to salvation, he insisted, was to follow his hyperliteral approach to the Bible and accept that supernatural forces have shaped history.
Riley urged delegates to stand by their traditional faith in the face of the modernist threat: “God forbid that we should fail him in the hour when the battle is heavy.”

 

Much the same sort of thing occurred within the Middle East with Islam, where you had variations occurring within Islam that Al-Wahhab in the 18th Century sought to get rid of. (See this good article here: http://www.amina.com/article/wahabism.html ). Though politics and religion mixed, it eventually led to the creation of modern Saudi Arabia (the 2 crossed swords of Al-Wahhab and Al-Saud). The struggle you see today in Saudi Arabia is the same sort of thing where you have the modernizing influences of the West driving reforms and change, and the social backlash of a people fearful of loosing their identity as a unique culture.

 

Even fundamentalism changes with its cultures, however conservative it tries to maintain itself as. My point is that you can’t get rid of religion, so you have to help it to evolve. As the bulk of society is getting their needs met, both economically and socially (which includes cultural identity), then the face of a religion that is oppressive will be rejected. If however the society is impoverished and has no sense of itself, this will give rise to the fundamentalist message of unity, strength, and identity. This is why evangelists are having a heyday in 3rd world countries where their governments are failing to provide the basics of society. You can’t get rid of religion, but you can get rid of the causes of fundamentalism.

 

There are many forms of religion that are not all offensive. And those who say that to allow for any form of it is an open door for fundamentalists, I’d respectfully disagree. Religion is a creation of man, and you can’t get rid of it. They’ll create a new system to take its place and it will look the same – let’s say nationalism. In any of those systems you will still have fundamentalists, moderates, and progressives. It’s just how it works. The best you can do is to make an effort to address the causes for statistical increases in fundamentalism.

 

The same with fundamentalist Christians, sure there are a lot of Christians who don't preach bigotry against gay people, or suggest we teach that the flood created the grand canyon in a science class. But try telling that to Mike Huckabe and you won't get very far.

 

These people have already decided that those who don't practice their religion "their" way aren't "real" believers anyway, so it is a necessary reality that when anyone argues with these people in favor of rational thought over dogma they will view it as an attack on their religion, no matter if we mean it to be or not.

I would argue that over time, the fundamentalist’s conservative views move forward to include such modern hot-topics like gay marriage. Just follow fundamentalist’s stance on women’s rights since its birth here in the states a hundred years ago. Are they actually identical in their stances from 100 years ago, or has there been some progress in their ranks, despite their claims of only one truth?

 

You try to reason with them and of course they’re going to be irrational. That pretty much defines fundamentalism. They are entirely reactionary in their very existence. They are based on a negative. They were born as a movement against modernity.

 

In the minds of those believers we ARE trying to get rid of their religion because we are advocating they get rid of things they have decided are intrinsic parts of their faith.

 

Of course it is not an impossible task, if it were we would not be where we are today, but it is also not an easy task, of course I'm sure I don't have to tell you that. :grin:

We are where we are today because we are part of a society that allows for the free dissemination of ideas. We are not a closed society, and the free exchange of ideas allows us to have choices. This is what defines a modern society. The best we can do is promote education and the free exchange of ideas. The people ultimately decide what direction to take their culture and their religions. If religion appears to be standing in the way, it's because people are choosing to give it power. We have to address that choice. Despite claims of following a path laid out for them, people will only ever continue to do what they need to and find justification for that somehow in the face of outdated ways.

 

I always appreciate what you have to say as well, one of the reasons I hang around here is people here often give me things to think about...I'd at least like to think I do for others occasionally as well.

Free exchange of ideas! That’s what it’s all about. :grin:

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Not all Muslims are barbaric. It's usually a cultural thing that acts like the horror scenes shown above. They are distateful and violent to my senses to see them posted here. I wish we could avoid that here. One could equally show the horrors of some dictatorships like that.

I deleted the post for you.

Thank you. I'm sorry it botherd me that much. I understand your point in posting it. (I refuse to watch 'faces of death' for the same personal reasons. I'm just hyper sensitive to that sort of imagery.)

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Faces of death is just pornography... there's no *need* to watch it since it's just the prurient bits of documentries edited to together...

 

Ranks up there with Jackass and Bum Fights

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[blah blah blah isa wants to give you all hand jobs and reach arounds blah blah]

That's one hell of a story. Normally I'd want you to be my best friend but I'm afraid even I have standards. Sorry. Please feel free to resubmit at a later date.

 

mwc

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