Home Schooling

[Unknowing1]

For both public schooling and home schooling, it depends on what the child is being taught (well rounded education)

 

Definitions of "well-rounded" vary from person to person. Most schools are limited because they have to teach what the school system has deemed to be taught.

 

, who is doing the teaching (qualification or ability),

 

Again studies, when it comes to home education, have shown that it doesn't matter if a parent had a higher education. I will continue to fight (letters, phone calls, etc.) lawmaker proposals that seek to enact qualifications that one must have in order to home educate their children.

 

 

how that teaching is being done (best suited to the child)

 

I agree with whatever is best suited to the child.

 

 

(ability to socialize with people of various cultures).

 

Something that many people never experience depending upon the community in which they live, but turn out to be successful and good people with good lives. There are people in my home town that have never been to Southern Michigan, let alone another state or country. My mother was 38 years old before she even ventured out of Michigan and that was only because she came down to see me graduate from boot camp in Orlando. Since then, she's been to Virginia, Texas, Germany (to see my sister in the Army), and Florida again and again...oddly enough, she communicates well with people from all walks of life and cultures, despite the fact that she was born and raised in an all white town and went to school in the 50's, her class was smaller than mine. However, she was a waitress her whole life and she loves to talk.

 

Sorry guys, as far as I'm concerned, this whole issue of socialization is moot.

 

Boy you got a lot out of that post that wasn't there. Sorry you misread what I was thinking.

 

First off the first point I made was in reference to just being able to read, write and basic math...what everyone needs in this world to get by. Second point...ability I have to say that if a person cannot read and write they cannot teach someone else to do it.

Third point there are actually employers who actually look to see the experience people have in dealing with people of all walks of life. If two people are going for the same job, both are fresh out of college, both with the same grades, same courses, same volunteer experience, both scored the same on the interview and employment tests. They are equal in all aspects except that one was home schooled and the other public schooled. Who would the supervisor pick? EDIT: forgot to say the job is in customer service, in a high pace, ever changing atmosphere.

[Grandpa Harley]

BTW, if any US home schoolers want a site that does some cool science supplies, give me a shout via pm and I'll send you a site that has volatile chemicals by the tonne

[justsomeone]

 

The parent must keep in mind that they may not have had the same degree of education in each and every subject. It may become *overwhelming* for the parent to teach several different subjects, rather than just one, especially when home schooling high school aged children. When teaching more than one child, (this is for you, you know who you are )the parent must keep in mind the challenges of also teaching different grade levels.

 

This quote is from the OP. Justsomeone, this applies to YOU more so then anyone else here. Why? Because you say you have 11 kids with two more on the way.

 

Comments on that part of the op please?

 

Hi Michael,

 

That was a big concern of mine at first and has been totally alleviated over time because of experience and reality. One thing home school parents must do is to not only use investigative skills and imagination but to DO something about obstacles. Public school parents have most of their problems handled for them. Overcoming obstacles is another great way for kids to learn. Watching a mom and dad overcome problems with the added bonus of knowing said mom and dad not only are 'mom and dad' but their life teachers, this makes for amazing learning adventures for ALL involved.

 

Again, I know that all parents teach their kids but with hs it is much more concentrated.

 

Ya know another thing that public school parents do not have to deal with? Anger and resentment and frustration on a whole other level.

 

Here is what I mean.

 

Homeschool parents not only deal with the ups and downs of being parents but they deal with the ups and downs of being TEACHERS and we all know a teacher's job is not easy, right? When the kids of public school friends of ours have problems with a teacher that teacher has to deal with this but guess who gets to deal with teacher/student problems with homeschool.

 

With dealing with the usual parental problems then adding the teacher'student problem it is not easy BUT it is rewarding. It is worth every moment of it. I think especially in America we are used to doing things the easy way. The easy way is not always the best way and it doesn't always create the best rewards.

 

My refrain..........Homeschooling is not easy, it is not for the faint of heart.

 

To answer your question. With the internet and the myriad of great knowledgeable people in the world there are no lack of good 'teachers' to help educate a child at home.

 

Hey also realize another very nice thing about teachers. With multiple kids the older ones teach the younger and if anyone says that this is a burden for the older kids, just try it once. Kids absolutely love to teach once they get into it. They sometimes 'play' school but with their play they don't even always realize that they are doing it for real. We even bought real old school desks for them to play with.

 

Again don't get me wrong. You must remember that homeschooling is not having public school at home. It is using life at, in and around the home life to educate. Many homeschoolers are so systemized that they slowly get into really just doing public school at home and they get frustrated that it isn't working. They have taken an amazing freedom and put it in chains so to speak.

 

js

[Jubilant]

Boy you got a lot out of that post that wasn't there. Sorry you misread what I was thinking.

 

Sorry for misreading you Unknown, I don't want to have vibes on this issue with you again, especially since we straightened it out last time. :-)

 

First off the first point I made was in reference to just being able to read, write and basic math...what everyone needs in this world to get by. Second point...ability I have to say that if a person cannot read and write they cannot teach someone else to do it.

 

I totally understand your concerns with basic math and reading, my concern would be with how people who were public schooled their entire lives wouldn't know how to read or do basic math though. :-) I've never run across anyone that home schools their children who do not know how to read or do basic math, there may be some who exist but none of which I'm aware.

 

Third point there are actually employers who actually look to see the experience people have in dealing with people of all walks of life. If two people are going for the same job, both are fresh out of college, both with the same grades, same courses, same volunteer experience, both scored the same on the interview and employment tests. They are equal in all aspects except that one was home schooled and the other public schooled. Who would the supervisor pick? EDIT: forgot to say the job is in customer service, in a high pace, ever changing atmosphere.

 

If a home schooled child went to college (and they do), they are getting the experience of dealing with people from all walks of life, depending on the college of course. Many home schooled children have jobs in our fast paced and ever changing society, they assimilate just fine.

[justsomeone]

BTW, if any US home schoolers want a site that does some cool science supplies, give me a shout via pm and I'll send you a site that has volatile chemicals by the tonne

 

With what I am reading of your writings in other posts Gramps, I wish you were in our neighborhood so I could bring my kids to you and you to them. Of course they will be getting stuff from you via this forum and me but the personal touch is always the best.

 

And of course I don't think I can pm yet but that should not bother you I suppose.

 

js

[SWIM]

 

 

Just out of curiousity, and not "bait" for a fight, tell me, (and I know it's none of my business), do you care to tell us how you teach evolution? Do you stick with ID creationalism, and young earth stuff? Also do you pepper all your lessons with biblical things?

 

I ask because my home-schooling fundy in-law does this. I *was* really strongly against HSing until I started this thread, and realized in the right hands (and there are some *right* hands here on this board) it can be a good thing. But in the *wrong* hands it could be very bad for their future state of mind.

 

Check out the thread on Westboro Baptist Church getting their butts sued for disrupting funerals. Pay special attention to the end of the youtube in the OP of that thread. This is the sort of thing I would hate to see kids get immersed in.

 

Edit:

 

Heres the link to the thread I just mentioned above:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...c=21282&hl=

[Robbobrob]

From what I have seen of home schoolers, it all depends on how the parents set up the system. The group that is run by several from my church does a very good job teaching their kids. The mothers trade off different subjects (ie one teaches history, one math, etc). And it is a group of 5 or 6 kids around the same age. Their parents, all very liberal types, can't imagine sending any child to a public school system - they believe their children would be harmed academically if they were sent to a public school.

 

But, if you have a parent or group of parents who half-ass it, or are doing it for reasons other than to give their children the best academic training possible, than I think that home schooling can be very harmful - like another homeschool group from the same city as the ones above, who had become so insulated as a religious community that kids ended up dying because someone in the group had visions from God.

[Unknowing1]

For both public schooling and home schooling, it depends on what the child is being taught (well rounded education), who is doing the teaching (qualification or ability), how that teaching is being done (best suited to the child) and the social aspect (ability to socialize with people of various cultures).

 

Ah, I think I understand the problem. I've quoted what I said in my original post above. I think the key words in my post are: "for both public schooling and home schooling" then I followed it with a comma and what I perceive to be an ideal outcome for both types of educational experience.

 

Yep and in answer to your answer to obtaining the ability to deal with all walks of life in college I do agree, but the person in my opinion with the most experience would be the public school student. Mainly because they had 4 years of high school where they had to deal with a diverse student population on a day to day basis, an ever changing teaching environment as well as diverse teaching environment. They would have at least 4 years of additional experience in my opinion, especially if coming from a larger school district.

[Jubilant]

For both public schooling and home schooling, it depends on what the child is being taught (well rounded education), who is doing the teaching (qualification or ability), how that teaching is being done (best suited to the child) and the social aspect (ability to socialize with people of various cultures).

 

Upon re-reading your reply and mine, I don't think there was a problem at all. I dissected each point and on the first one wrote that "well-rounded" varies from person to person and that schools are limited on what they can teach. On the second point, I wrote: when it comes to home educating.... As for the third point, I agreed with you. And on the last one, I replied to the issue of socialization and gave, as an example, that not everyone lives among various cultures of people and do fine. I've reiterated this point several times on this thread when it comes to public schools and culture, yet no one seems to be getting it.

[Jubilant]

I've gone back through the thread and have read the objections/concerns for home schooling. People are going to feel how they feel and that is fine but I just wanted to add something here...Most people don't suddenly wake up one morning and decide to home educate their children, they research the pros and cons and then make their decisions. Do you really think that millions of people would home school their children if they thought their children wouldn't be able to function in society, go to college, make friends, etc.? Do you honestly feel that way? Give people some credit here for cryin' out loud.

[SWIM]

Give people some credit here for cryin' out loud.

 

People HERE I give a lot of credit to, there are many here including you, that I think could do a good job of it. My biggest, strongest objection is the "religious" motivation. Sure people have the right to do it for that reason, but I don't have to like it either.

[Jubilant]

Michael, I understand and thank you. However, as much as I abhor fundamentalist Christianity, it'd be unfair for me to paint a negative picture of them and their children when I've literally been around numerous fundy families over the years. I'm speaking from experience here, not making judgments on that of which I know absolutely nothing about or based on a couple of families. Most of their children are happy, joyful, intelligent, kind, considerate, are curious, have friends, the list goes on and on. Notice I said "most" and not "all" but the same can be said about public schooled children as well. In my entire time of home schooling and being around other families, out of probably 100 or so, I can think of only a few in which the mom has the long hair, wears no make-up, children are dressed poorly, and they act a little strange. Aside from them, the majority look and act no differently from other children. Their parents are constantly out and about and the majority that I know are so bent on making sure that their children are "socialized" that they're constantly busy taking their children everywhere.

 

When I left the faith a few years ago, it wasn't only home school families that we knew that "disowned us", it was other families and friends as well. However, the home school group that I'm a part of and run is majority Christian, though not all are fundies and they know that we're unbelievers, but they choose to stay in the group regardless. We have conversations and though we disagree, they've never preached at me or tried to get me to reconvert, nothing.

 

I just can't broad-brush stroke and generalize others simply because they home school for religious reasons, especially when I know better.

[SWIM]

Michael, I understand and thank you. However, as much as I abhor fundamentalist Christianity, it'd be unfair for me to paint a negative picture of them and their children when I've literally been around numerous fundy families over the years. I'm speaking from experience here, not making judgments on that of which I know absolutely nothing about.

 

Well, in all fairness, I only know ONE fundy family doing this, and they are over the top wild with the religion part of it, and they teach them evolution is WRONG. This irks me, but granted I seriously don't have enough exposure to it to blanket-say all fundy HSing is bad, but the limited exposure I have had to it, really gives a bad BAD impression of fundy HSing.

[Alice]

The thing that stands out for me is that there is a big difference between schooling and education. Also it is the idea of schools that is WEIRD and relatively new, not the other way around... but somehow in just a couple of generations 'society' has accepted that sending your children off to school all day is normal.

 

In the UK the media is always complaining about 'groups of young people' hanging around together - is it any wonder when from the age of three years in many instances and definitely by five years we are segregating children off into year groups and socialising them to almost exclusively hang about with people of the same age?

 

I'd be inclined to see socialisation as an argument AGAINST schools. So many children it seems only know how to relate to someone who is the same age as them. I'd wager that homeschooled children do not suffer from this, but there are plenty of school attending children that do (I'm not saying all do - but those who can relate to people of all ages generally haven't picked this skill up at school. Teacher/pupil relationships do not tend to be a great example of how it is in the real world ... but even accepting that they learn to relate to teachers as well ... that's still pretty much it, socialised to relate to people who are the same age as you and teachers.)

 

The reason I didn't homeschool? Because I was completely sucked in by the idea that it was 'normal' to send your children to school - until I was already so far down a path of accepting the 'stuff' payoffs we get as poor compensations for spending time with our children, that we now need two incomes to pay for it and it seems to scary to change paths.

 

The one thing I've never accepted is that teachers know best or that I'm obliged to send my children to school everyday, but it's hard to take them out for even one day in the UK and is greatly frowned on - to the extend that if we want to go off and do something as a family or take a holiday that overlaps with term time we've resorted to lying about it to remove the hassel involved if you want to keep your children with you for 24hrs.

[Jubilant]

Well, in all fairness, I only know ONE fundy family doing this, and they are over the top wild with the religion part of it, and they teach them evolution is WRONG. This irks me, but granted I seriously don't have enough exposure to it to blanket-say all fundy HSing is bad, but the limited exposure I have had to it, really gives a bad BAD impression of fundy HSing.

 

And I soooo agree with you when it comes to evolution! GRRRRR...but as I posted earlier, the majority of fundaMENTALists are being taught that bull-crap and believe it because of church group studies and their children believe it, despite going to school, because their parents are teaching it to them. In Kent Hovind's Creation Series, which many churches have handy, he encourages parents to allow their schooled children to watch and learn the videos so that they can LEARN how to argue against evolution in the classroom (there was a thread about how fundy kids are doing this and the disruption it causes sometime last year) and what to write on tests.

 

I've seen the fundy science programs and they do indeed teach evolution wrong... that evolution claims we came from "monkey's" is the one that stands out in my mind. In later grade fundy curriculum, they delve into evolution more in-depth but use it in conjunction with apologetics and mock the theory. In my hands, I possess several middle/high school level public school textbooks and evolution receives very little (if any) attention. IMO, children are not receiving enough education on evolution in the public school system, which may explain why the majority of Americans do not accept it, even though they went to school. Even though they aren't fundy Christians, they don't know the first thing about evolution, if one doesn't understand it or want to, they just dismiss it as an impossibility. KWIM? I will say though, that aside from many Christian textbooks riddling everything as a creation of God, that many Christian children are doing science experiments, nature studies (identifying classes, insects, birds, parts of flowers, etc), studying animals, learning about scientific achievements, technology, the human body, diseases and more.

 

So, I although I do share your concern when it comes to evolution, that the majority of Americans don't "get it" shows a deeper problem, one that has nothing to do with home schooling but rather the Fundamentalist Christian movement.

[Jubilant]

Alice, I meant to comment on this earlier but you do not fit the definition of a non-involved parent, on the contrary, you are very involved. When I define uninvolved parents, I am specifically referring to those who never spend time with their children, never read to them, don't care if they do their homework or not, don't care to speak to a teacher about how to help their child in school, etc. The kind of parent who "buys" things for their child to "make-up" for their lack of quality time and thinks that doing so equates to being a "good/involved" parent.

[Alice]

Thanks Jubilant,

 

I am in an unusual category in that I don't really get very involved in the content of my children's school work and I encourage them not to think that school is the be all and end all - especially exams. (I dislike homework as well!) We go to most parent teacher evenings but they are a bit embarrassing because the teachers never have any concerns or questions for us and we rarely have any questions for them, we say hello, the teacher tells us which ever child is doing really well and they are happy with their progress, they ask us if we have any questions, we say no and then we leave.

 

Occasionally there have been concerns. My middle son went through a phase of truanting. He was caught after about four sessions - this kind of thing we followed up immediately, although in terms of 'is there anything we can do to make school seem like a better option?' but his teacher was a bit put out that we didn't punish him in anyway. But my view is - if I knocked off work because I was fed up or bored or unhappy I'd hardly expect my hubs to ground me or dock my allowance, so I'm not going to treat my children this way either.

 

Its nice to hear you say these things Jub, because even some of my close real life friends think my approach to school is weird. (I have a friend who has a daughter the same age as one of my son's. They sat SATS on the same day. She revised with her DD every night for a month beforehand and sent her off with the words, 'this is one of the most important days in your life', I took the approach, 'school work is for school time, evenings are for the rest of your life - don't think about the exams - just do your best, they are teacher tests not pupil tests'.

 

On evolution - the problem in the USA seems a lot wider than homeschooling. Watching the Simpsons last night, a school based episode in which there is a teacher strike, there was a little aside about the school only having the books other schools didn't want - right in the centre of the little row of bizarre books was one that read 'The Theory of Evolution'. Now I know that the Simpsons isn't the oracle on all things american but if it hadn't been an issue it wouldn't have been there.

 

(One of my many awkward childhood memories is of being 'withdrawn' from evolution lessons, sex education and interestingly R.E lessons - all on religious grounds - and having to sit outside the class with the one girl in the school who was a JW and had parents as wacky as mine)

[♦ nivek ♦]

Summerhill and the central thread of life

Strike the Root

by Glen Allport

 

"The academic disaster of our government school system is only part of

the story. Constant coercion, relentless boredom, and other

mistreatment of children in public schools cause emotional damage and

the stunting of intelligent, independent thought -- pretty much what

government schooling is designed for." (01/21/08)

 

http://www.strike-the-root.com/81/allport/allport3.html

[Ouroboros]

"...the stunting of intelligent, independent thought..."

 

Exactly. That's my experience with the public school here. They want to teach the kids to follow directions, not to side track. Going outside of plan is automatically ADD or ADHD diagnose. Basically, everyone that has evern broken out of the mold and had a single idea outside of norm, were mentally ill and needed medication. Thank The Holy Cute Bunny that Darwin, Einstein et.al didn't live in our time!

[Jubilant]

I have a friend who has a daughter the same age as one of my son's. They sat SATS on the same day. She revised with her DD every night for a month beforehand and sent her off with the words, 'this is one of the most important days in your life', I took the approach, 'school work is for school time, evenings are for the rest of your life - don't think about the exams - just do your best, they are teacher tests not pupil tests

 

LOL, I don't think its strange at all! "Do your best" is a frequent saying around here. When our oldest was in school, it used to kill us and him that he had to spend so much time doing "school". In second grade, he'd get on the bus at 6:30, start school at 8, arrive home at 4pm, eat dinner, and then immediately begin on his homework. This allowed very little time for him to enjoy his childhood and very little family time as well. We pulled him and since our then 4yo dd was learning so much here at home, we didn't even want to bother putting her through the same. Both of ours attended a weekly blended school program and they hated it. There were no hands-on projects, just teachers bossing. Our dd loves animals and they have blended school program at the zoo too. One time, she and I went on a Wednesday and after watching the children and how they were shuffled around and told to "Stay in line", "Wait patiently for so and so to finish using the bathroom", "Be quiet", "Don't put your hands on the railing", "Move so this person can see", "Okay, that was long enough, let Jimmy see", "On your paper's write"....my daughter looked at me and said, "Mom, I don't want to join the blended school for the zoo, it is much nicer to stay and look at whatever animals and exhibits we want and take pictures, read from our books, than to have to do everything they're doing." I said, "You can make a few more friends." She replied, "I have enough friends."

[Ouroboros]

When our oldest was in school, it used to kill us and him that he had to spend so much time doing "school". In second grade, he'd get on the bus at 6:30, start school at 8, arrive home at 4pm, eat dinner, and then immediately begin on his homework. This allowed very little time for him to enjoy his childhood and very little family time as well.

That's our situation. Besides they also have homework over the weekend, about 4 hours extra. One of my kids even had a project over Christmas. My kids work as hard as me at times. Some of them still sit in front of their books when I get back from work! And yet I left for work after they went to school. Something is wrong with that picture...

[R. S. Martin]

When our oldest was in school, it used to kill us and him that he had to spend so much time doing "school". In second grade, he'd get on the bus at 6:30, start school at 8, arrive home at 4pm, eat dinner, and then immediately begin on his homework. This allowed very little time for him to enjoy his childhood and very little family time as well.

That's our situation. Besides they also have homework over the weekend, about 4 hours extra. One of my kids even had a project over Christmas. My kids work as hard as me at times. Some of them still sit in front of their books when I get back from work! And yet I left for work after they went to school. Something is wrong with that picture...

 

Absolutely. I just don't get it why all the homework. Why not teach them what they need to know in school and leave them free for the evenings and weekends and holidays? That is how I was schooled. I had no kindergarten, no homework, no highschool. Yet I did one creative writing college level course, and on the strength of that went into university as a mature student and started getting top grades within a few semesters and got onto honor role within a year. Others with the same kind of elementary education go on to do successful home business, you name it--they do it. All of us grew up working hard doing farm chores. Some people cry "child labor!" when they hear that but I think "mental brain abuse" when I hear things like you say here, Hans. Kids need some time to let their brains rest.

[Alice]

LOL, I don't think its strange at all! "Do your best" is a frequent saying around here. When our oldest was in school, it used to kill us and him that he had to spend so much time doing "school". In second grade, he'd get on the bus at 6:30, start school at 8, arrive home at 4pm, eat dinner, and then immediately begin on his homework. This allowed very little time for him to enjoy his childhood and very little family time as well.

 

 

That's our situation. Besides they also have homework over the weekend, about 4 hours extra. One of my kids even had a project over Christmas. My kids work as hard as me at times. Some of them still sit in front of their books when I get back from work! And yet I left for work after they went to school. Something is wrong with that picture...

 

 

I think "mental brain abuse" when I hear things like you say here, Hans. Kids need some time to let their brains rest.

 

 

I so agree with all these sentiments.

 

My favourite educationalist is Satir Kumar. At his small schools academic subjects occupy only a third of the curriculum - the rest of the time the children learn practical skills, gardening, husbandry, cooking, weaving, sowing - and delve into the arts. Despite reducing their 'desk time' by two thirds - they come out with the same if not higher academic qualifications of those of similar ability.

 

The homework is about making up for poor teaching skills as far as I'm concerned and so much time lost being herded!

 

Of course 'homework' prepares us drones for the idea that it is normal to carry a briefcase of work home with you in adult life also, so we can give our evening to the company for free and the government even has a system whereby our children are occupied on projects as well.

 

If I had my time over again I'd campaign for a ban on all school devised homework for children.

[Ouroboros]

... Some people cry "child labor!" when they hear that but I think "mental brain abuse" when I hear things like you say here, Hans. Kids need some time to let their brains rest.

What's even worse. We/they can NOT skip homework. Most of their grades depends on done homework. Not on tests. My second son had A+ on all tests, but got an F, because he failed to complete his homework. The reason? It was too boring. That's why we had to take him out of public school and put him in the ACCESS program for delinquents and actors children. The school counselor agreed that the system is screwed up. She told us that the school is pretty much just testing that you do your work, not that you understand it. What does this mean? They're growing blue collar worker bees, to slave under the corporate and under the politicians. Nothing else. They're made into robots. Obey or fail.

 

I think however when you go to College and higher school they learn to think for themselves. Because suddenly, it's the quality of work that counts, not the quantity. But how long will it take until we see that same changes in higher education?

 

Homework should be to help the student get a deeper understanding of the topic, or to catch up, not to be the core of the education, because this only show that the teachers don't teach, they're just baby-sitters.

[Alice]

When I studied for my degree the vast number of students at the college I attended were undertaking teacher training. During her first years teaching practice one of my friends failed on two grounds.

 

1. She departed from her lesson plans. On a couple of occasions her class expressed an interest in a topic that was slightly different from her planned lesson - sensing their enthusiasm, she abandoned her plan and they came up with an different approach together (mostly the same subject material was covereed but in a different way)

 

2. She was criticised for not maintaining boundaries - the children liked her and used to stay after lessons to talk to her.

 

She completed a four year degree course. She eventually learnt to tow the line and graduated with a B.ED hons.

 

But does she teach? .... nope.

 

I have to ask Hans - delinquents and actors children is this a common classification?