NoNameSam Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I have a question for any person willing to answer. If I spend my entire life, let's say 65 years not believing in the Christian God but I have never harmed or done any serious wrong my entire life can I still pray on my deathbed and make it to heaven? Or is christianity just another ultimatum where if I don't do one thing I can't go on to the next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I have a question for any person willing to answer. If I spend my entire life, let's say 65 years not believing in the Christian God but I have never harmed or done any serious wrong my entire life can I still pray on my deathbed and make it to heaven? Or is christianity just another ultimatum where if I don't do one thing I can't go on to the next? You can pray all you want, sure, but your not going to heaven since that is a mythical place from a fairy tale book... The ultimatum you are most likely talking about is called "pascal's wager" just google it to find out about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoNameSam Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 And you know how....where you "born again"? if you havn't died I'll take that as a guess...personally I don't believe there is an after-life but I am curious as to what christianity is...an option or an ultimata. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 And you know how....where you "born again"? if you havn't died I'll take that as a guess...personally I don't believe there is an after-life but I am curious as to what christianity is...an option or an ultimata. Well, there is no science at all to support a heaven, it is up to the asserter to "prove" the assertion, not the other way around. If someone told you there is no heaven but rather a Val-hallah, would you be inclined to believe it without proof? Now I am not guessing. There is no heaven or hell, not at all. Just like there is no flying unicorns. You can tell me all day there ARE flying unicorns, but untill you prove it, they are not facts or even theory without any support at all in facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 If you are superstitious and if it gives you some peace and comfort in the final hours of your life to pray for salvation, then go for it, but that's all it's going to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoNameSam Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 Perfect, just what I wanted to hear...science...have you ever thought science, or all that we "know" is bull...Take for instance history...I'm supposing you went to school and they taught you history, well you know as well as I o any one else in an educational system they never teach you the whole truth. In fact I'd say they teach you hardly any truth. And this is my point about the history thing, how do you know that history hasn't merely been replaced with fictitious lies about what happened? If you tell a man He is 5' 11" and you change the size of an inch when the man is really 6'3" he will believe he is 5'11" because it has been told no other way. So as for science...who's to say it isn't told this way to keep us on out toes and out of the way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 If you tell a man He is 5' 11" and you change the size of an inch when the man is really 6'3" he will believe he is 5'11" because it has been told no other way. But if he's a smart fellow and seeks answers on his own then he will learn what a real inch is. So as for science...who's to say it isn't told this way to keep us on out toes and out of the way? Again, seek on your own. There are multitudes of opinions and theories out there. If you are interested in something then you take as much of it in and make a decision for yourself based on what you've learned. There is no logical reason for science to be some "conspiracy" to keep us "on our toes and out of the way." That would mean that every person that wants to study any field of science would have to be in on the conspiracy and keep quiet about it. Not going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 If I spend my entire life, let's say 65 years not believing in the Christian God but I have never harmed or done any serious wrong my entire life can I still pray on my deathbed and make it to heaven? Or is christianity just another ultimatum where if I don't do one thing I can't go on to the next? Well, Constantine, who we can "thank" for most of the success of Christianity, he waited until death bed to convert and get baptised. But did that take him to heaven or not? Who knows. Christianity got literally thousands of different views of their religion, so it depends on which Christian you ask. One might say you have to get baptised, someone else say you have to convert in your heart, and someone else might have some other ideas, like do you have to ask for forgiveness or not, or is it enough to just ask "Jesus in to your heart", or is it what you say, or what you intend, or both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Perfect, just what I wanted to hear...science...have you ever thought science, or all that we "know" is bull...Take for instance history...I'm supposing you went to school and they taught you history, well you know as well as I o any one else in an educational system they never teach you the whole truth. In fact I'd say they teach you hardly any truth. And this is my point about the history thing, how do you know that history hasn't merely been replaced with fictitious lies about what happened? If you tell a man He is 5' 11" and you change the size of an inch when the man is really 6'3" he will believe he is 5'11" because it has been told no other way. So as for science...who's to say it isn't told this way to keep us on out toes and out of the way? History is by definition an approximation of events and not facts or truths. History can contain facts and truths, but a lot of what you lear is extrapolation and inductive inference. It's in its nature. And all this comes to the question "how do you know, that what you know, is true"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Ooookay!!! When I first saw this question, my first thought was, "Does he realize to whom he is posing this question?' After his last post and having had a few experiences with scitzophrenics on the forums, I'm out of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoNameSam Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 Perfect, just what I wanted to hear...science...have you ever thought science, or all that we "know" is bull...Take for instance history...I'm supposing you went to school and they taught you history, well you know as well as I o any one else in an educational system they never teach you the whole truth. In fact I'd say they teach you hardly any truth. And this is my point about the history thing, how do you know that history hasn't merely been replaced with fictitious lies about what happened? If you tell a man He is 5' 11" and you change the size of an inch when the man is really 6'3" he will believe he is 5'11" because it has been told no other way. So as for science...who's to say it isn't told this way to keep us on out toes and out of the way? History is by definition an approximation of events and not facts or truths. History can contain facts and truths, but a lot of what you lear is extrapolation and inductive inference. It's in its nature. And all this comes to the question "how do you know, that what you know, is true"? I don't and I never said I did, all I know is that the inevitable may not be as inevitable if it's just a word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 History is by definition an approximation of events and not facts or truths. History can contain facts and truths, but a lot of what you lear is extrapolation and inductive inference. It's in its nature. And all this comes to the question "how do you know, that what you know, is true"? I don't and I never said I did, all I know is that the inevitable may not be as inevitable if it's just a word. ??? you lost me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoNameSam Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 History is by definition an approximation of events and not facts or truths. History can contain facts and truths, but a lot of what you lear is extrapolation and inductive inference. It's in its nature. And all this comes to the question "how do you know, that what you know, is true"? I don't and I never said I did, all I know is that the inevitable may not be as inevitable if it's just a word. ??? you lost me... Nevermind it was really not a serious question, I just wanted to see the reaction, it doesnt take much to fuel the fire of a virtua-wo/man on this site does it, nor anywhere else, people are to belittled in this world it even gets them down on the internet...it's sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 it doesnt take much to fuel the fire of a virtua-wo/man on this site does it, nor anywhere else, people are to belittled in this world it even gets them down on the internet...it's sad. So far no one has flamed/lambasted you or your questions. We've been indulging and started some interesting convo's regardless of your ill-communicated questions. Looks like Taph called your number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Nevermind it was really not a serious question, I just wanted to see the reaction, it doesnt take much to fuel the fire of a virtua-wo/man on this site does it, nor anywhere else, people are to belittled in this world it even gets them down on the internet...it's sad. ??? "Fuel the fire"... I wasn't mad, angry, upset or even annoyed. I just answered what I though was your question... And did I belittle you??? I'm totally confused now... I treated you with respect, and answered your questions and you take that as me being rallied up or something. I wasn't irritated, but now I am. To me it sounds like you're hyper-sensitive. Maybe you should stay out of social interaction all toghether, because you obviously will take anyones response as an offense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoNameSam Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 Nevermind it was really not a serious question, I just wanted to see the reaction, it doesnt take much to fuel the fire of a virtua-wo/man on this site does it, nor anywhere else, people are to belittled in this world it even gets them down on the internet...it's sad. ??? "Fuel the fire"... I wasn't mad, angry, upset or even annoyed. I just answered what I though was your question... And did I belittle you??? I'm totally confused now... I treated you with respect, and answered your questions and you take that as me being rallied up or something. I wasn't irritated, but now I am. To me it sounds like you're hyper-sensitive. Maybe you should stay out of social interaction all toghether, because you obviously will take anyones response as an offense! No I'm not offended, or belittled and it wasn't you doing any of the snide remarks haha, Some other people where giving me rude answers for no reasons like they where offended that I even wondered about this, chill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Anybody else confused? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Anybody else confused? Well, I am kinda confused... I can buy that history in schools are tainted, but science? You cannot go back in time to prove history, but you CAN *learn* science and do experiments, witness them, do the calcuations etc etc. Was your response in some way "refuting" that one must prove an assertation is true, not the other way around? You realize if people set about trying to prove the things people beleive are "not true" the whole world would be bogged down trying to disprove unicorns, flying zebras, mountain sitting gods, zombies etc etc. There is a logical sound reason for having to first PROVE a claim, rather then disproving it. If I told you my underwear was white, I can actually prove that, but if you did NOT believe, nobody would expect you to set about proving I don't, it would be up to me to supply the proof. This whole conversation feels kinda strange to me, why is there a need to state the obvious anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Perfect, just what I wanted to hear...science...have you ever thought science, or all that we "know" is bull...Take for instance history...I'm supposing you went to school and they taught you history, well you know as well as I o any one else in an educational system they never teach you the whole truth. In fact I'd say they teach you hardly any truth. And this is my point about the history thing, how do you know that history hasn't merely been replaced with fictitious lies about what happened? If you tell a man He is 5' 11" and you change the size of an inch when the man is really 6'3" he will believe he is 5'11" because it has been told no other way. So as for science...who's to say it isn't told this way to keep us on out toes and out of the way? Actually NO I never ever thought that "all that we "know" is bull" ALL is a mighty big statement. But, realistically? "Some" that we are taught is bull, but some thing we learn because we have a mind and can reason. Take math for example. 1+1=2 It is totally impossible for that to be "bull" unless of course there is deeper meaning behind the scenes, like "each 1 is a variable, and can be pre-defined". But even knowing that, you can still arrive at the correct answer, it's called logical thinking. You say: "they teach you hardly any truth" and "to keep us on out toes and out of the way?" You know, you are really new here, and we have yet to really get to know you. The above quotes sound like products of depression and anger, the paranoia level is frightening. Nobody has yet to belittle you or wise-crack at you. The "incite/insight" comment by me in your first thread was only a mildly funny hehe joke, not an insult. And I am not trying to insult you NOW either, just trying to answer your question. Are you feeling ok? Why not tell us a bit about you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Sam, have you disappeared? Under "Any Gods?" you say "Nien." Do you mean the German word for "No"? If so, switch the vowels around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Comparing history and science is like comparing apples to pencils. The comparison is inappropriate. And no, I have never thought that "all I know" is bull, because to seriously think that way would be insane. It is also not provable -- you need at least some sort of proof to base that kind of theory on. Even in the Matrix, the main characters discovered proof that the simulated reality they were living in was not real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 If you tell a man He is 5' 11" and you change the size of an inch when the man is really 6'3" he will believe he is 5'11" because it has been told no other way. An inch is an inch is an inch. A unit of measurement cannot change. It is illogical to think it would. All you have to do is just get a ruler and prove that it did not change. Why do you think it can? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 If you tell a man He is 5' 11" and you change the size of an inch when the man is really 6'3" he will believe he is 5'11" because it has been told no other way. An inch is an inch is an inch. A unit of measurement cannot change. It is illogical to think it would. All you have to do is just get a ruler and prove that it did not change. Amethyst, this goes way beyond ordinary questioning. I think this guy has serious problems, I wish he would respond, he sounds like he needs some support, sounds like he has some serious problems. If your still reading this, we are not the enemy. Just talk, tell us what you got going on, dont give details if you have paranoia, speak generally, really, seriously, this is a SUPPORT group for ex-chirstians, we are here for you, not to bash you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 An inch is an inch is an inch. A unit of measurement cannot change. It is illogical to think it would. All you have to do is just get a ruler and prove that it did not change. Actually, the inch has not always been the same. It was based on the yard and feet measurements and they were not the same from country to country. There is an international standard for it now, but it didn't use to be. I think his point isn't about what an inch is, but if someone learns to believe a lie from young age, he will have a hard time accepting the truth when he sees it. So if he's lied to how long an inch really is, then when he's adult and get to know the real length of an inch, he might not accept it because how can he know which one is the truth? But then he compares this to science, in the aspect that if we're told a lie in science and everyone believes it, how can we know it is a lie? This problem isn't a real problem, since one piece of science is built upon the previous, and if one piece is faulty the whole will collapse. And each theory and knowledge in science is repeatedly tested, over and over again, and when something is discovered to be false, it is proclaimed to everyone that it is so. His "problem" is really not a problem at all, but merely a speculation that there's some conspiracy trying to confuse use away from some "real truth" out there. (I personally have a hard time with conspiracies in general - it's mainly the fear in the primate of being alone and against the world, that comes out) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jillian Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I think I understand what the original poster was trying to get at and as such, his comments have more to do with ABSOLUTE truth/s, and trying to determine if any such thing "exists". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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