20/20 Report On Westboro Baptist Church

[florduh]

I’m a Christian. I know Christians. The people with the Westboro group are NOT Christians. Christian means “like Christ”, and there is nothing Christ like about them.

 

There is a community near us which is a German Catholic Dairy town. One of their home town boys became a Marine and he was killed in service. Those “God Hates Fags” idiots wanted to show up and made it known they would be there. Rick talked to some of them because he had stopped in that town to eat lunch that week. The guys in there were talking and said they had sent a message that if they showed up they better be ready to disappear and never be found again. I don’t know I it was a bluff, but they didn’t show up. They give Christians a bad name

 

 

I suppose it should be Jews hating fags and everything else, since they don't see themselves as living under the New Covenant. Where are all the Good Jews still under Mosaic law? A few still make some attempt at following dietary laws (that's not too hard) but how many work on the Sabbath and how many have ever killed a disobedient child, homosexual, or infidel? At least radical Muslims follow their book!

 

Alas, it's always a Christian (of course not YOUR particular sect) that finds justification for anything they desire in both the Old and New Testaments. If you hate "fags" use the OT. If you want to keep women in their place, use the NT. If you endorse slavery, use both. Praise the Lord!

 

BTW, it's the vast majority of followers and the Bible itself that give Christians a bad name.

 

How can anyone not see the dangerous idiocy of religion any more?

 

- Chris

[Guest Marty]

And, more generally and importantly, the old lie that Christians should still follow the Old Testament Law isn't one either. That is a deceitful and foolish tactic to redefine the beliefs of Christians and then attack those beliefs. It's just a straw man, so we might as well give it up.

 

 

Matthew 5:17-20

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

 

This is jesus speaking. Unless xtians are saying that Paul has more authority than the supposed son of god, the OT laws ARE still binding. Forever.

 

And that also means every xtian that wears a cotton/polyesther shirt and eats shrimp or lobster needs to be killed right along side the homosexual MEN. Leviticus never says anything about women getting it on.

[Guest Marty]

And, more generally and importantly, the old lie that Christians should still follow the Old Testament Law isn't one either. That is a deceitful and foolish tactic to redefine the beliefs of Christians and then attack those beliefs. It's just a straw man, so we might as well give it up.

 

 

Matthew 5:17-20

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

 

This is jesus speaking. Unless xtians are saying that Paul has more authority than the supposed son of god, the OT laws ARE still binding. Forever.

 

And that also means every xtian that wears a cotton/polyesther shirt and eats shrimp or lobster needs to be killed right along side the homosexual MEN. Leviticus never says anything about women getting it on.

[florduh]

And, more generally and importantly, the old lie that Christians should still follow the Old Testament Law isn't one either. That is a deceitful and foolish tactic to redefine the beliefs of Christians and then attack those beliefs. It's just a straw man, so we might as well give it up.

 

 

Matthew 5:17-20

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

 

This is jesus speaking. Unless xtians are saying that Paul has more authority than the supposed son of god, the OT laws ARE still binding. Forever.

 

And that also means every xtian that wears a cotton/polyesther shirt and eats shrimp or lobster needs to be killed right along side the homosexual MEN. Leviticus never says anything about women getting it on.

 

 

Indeed, everyone is still bound by the law, but in practice, almost all professing Christians claim to be living under Grace, not Law. Just one more example of choosing the verses you like and ignoring the contradictory ones. Bottom line is that NOBODY follows the law, regardless of what the Bible says. It's just too difficult I guess. And does the Good Book really condone lesbianism? That Leviticus was a real perv!

 

- Chris

[Guest Marty]

And does the Good Book really condone lesbianism? That Leviticus was a real perv!

 

- Chris

 

No, it is not condoned, just not mentioned. It says any man that lies with another man shall be killed. Does not say a thing about a woman lying with another woman.

 

However, I do believe there is a verse in Romans that says something about both sexs "giving in to their passions" or something...I don't have my personal annotated bible with me at the moment, so I can't look it up.

 

I guess even 5,000 years ago girl on girl turned men on!

 

[florduh]

And does the Good Book really condone lesbianism? That Leviticus was a real perv!

 

- Chris

 

No, it is not condoned, just not mentioned. It says any man that lies with another man shall be killed. Does not say a thing about a woman lying with another woman.

 

However, I do believe there is a verse in Romans that says something about both sexs "giving in to their passions" or something...I don't have my personal annotated bible with me at the moment, so I can't look it up.

 

I guess even 5,000 years ago girl on girl turned men on!

 

 

Well, if it's not mentioned, I say it's condoned. I could do a study on it, but I'm just going to believe what I want anyway!

 

- Chris

[Skankboy]

From the little kid at the end (jonah I think?): "They make up their own God and that's just wrong..."

 

My irony meter almost blew up on that one. I

 

In my opinion, anyone taking the Bible to it's logical conclusion could very well end up like this. Someone else here had it right: This is a revival, not an abberation.

 

 

[edited 'cause the Skank can't spell no good...]

[par4dcourse]

Well, if it's not mentioned, I say it's condoned. I could do a study on it, but I'm just going to believe what I want anyway!

 

- Chris

 

 

 

Welcome to the boards, Chris.

I use the same logic in arguing that any natural process, such as the fermentation of sugar into alcohol by yeast, and the growth of some interesting weeds in my basement are wholly of nature and gawd created nature therefore they are wholly and I'm just being religious on weekends and holidays.

[florduh]

Well, if it's not mentioned, I say it's condoned. I could do a study on it, but I'm just going to believe what I want anyway!

 

- Chris

 

 

 

Welcome to the boards, Chris.

I use the same logic in arguing that any natural process, such as the fermentation of sugar into alcohol by yeast, and the growth of some interesting weeds in my basement are wholly of nature and gawd created nature therefore they are wholly and I'm just being religious on weekends and holidays.

 

 

Thanks, Par4. Your logic is impeccable.

 

- Chris

[GraphicsGuy]

I don't doubt that lesbianism may have been common among a patriarchal society that practiced polygamy. While one wife warmed the man the other wives warmed each other. Especially common among a king's harem...

[Neon Genesis]

I see you are referring to Leviticus law. The law makes us realize that we can’t possibly live up to it and that we are guilty. Christ didn’t come to do away with the law but to fulfill it His death on the cross made it possible for us to not have to pay for our transgressions The new testament talks about the people who do these kinds of things (unnatural affections, etc) are worthy of death, but we are not told to kill them. If we use Christ’s example, we would go to them and reach out to them. Hating sin is not the same thing as hating the sinner.

 

Besides, I don’t care what anyone says, that guy in Westboro is a nut job and if he’s “following the Bible†is his own interpretation of what he has taken out of context.

 

PS You do realize his “God hates fags†protest at solder’s funerals doesn’t even have anything to do with the soldier’s sexual orientation, right? Not that it would make a difference if it did.

Didn't Jesus also say that sinning in your heart is the same as commiting the actual sin? So, if you think homosexuals deserve death, according to Jesus, isn't that the same as actually killing them? So, if God thinks homosexuals deserve death, then is that the same as God actually killing them? According to Romans 1:28-32, God thinks disobedient children deserve to die, too. So, is it ok for us to teach people that if your children disobey you, they deserve to die as long as we don't actually kill them without it counting as child abuse?

[hereticzero]

I don't know how christian say these folks are not typical christians and not REAL christians. Ever watch the loons outside of an abortion clinic protest--they are the same kind of people, only the clothes are different.

[sonyaj68]

I don't know how christian say these folks are not typical christians and not REAL christians. Ever watch the loons outside of an abortion clinic protest--they are the same kind of people, only the clothes are different.

people who protest in front of abortion clinics are nutjobs too.

[sonyaj68]

I see you are referring to Leviticus law. The law makes us realize that we can’t possibly live up to it and that we are guilty. Christ didn’t come to do away with the law but to fulfill it His death on the cross made it possible for us to not have to pay for our transgressions The new testament talks about the people who do these kinds of things (unnatural affections, etc) are worthy of death, but we are not told to kill them. If we use Christ’s example, we would go to them and reach out to them. Hating sin is not the same thing as hating the sinner.

 

Besides, I don’t care what anyone says, that guy in Westboro is a nut job and if he’s “following the Bible†is his own interpretation of what he has taken out of context.

 

PS You do realize his “God hates fags†protest at solder’s funerals doesn’t even have anything to do with the soldier’s sexual orientation, right? Not that it would make a difference if it did.

Didn't Jesus also say that sinning in your heart is the same as commiting the actual sin? So, if you think homosexuals deserve death, according to Jesus, isn't that the same as actually killing them? So, if God thinks homosexuals deserve death, then is that the same as God actually killing them? According to Romans 1:28-32, God thinks disobedient children deserve to die, too. So, is it ok for us to teach people that if your children disobey you, they deserve to die as long as we don't actually kill them without it counting as child abuse?

That's an interesting twist. God's laws don't apply to God - His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. BUT the whole point is that we're lost without Christ becuase none of us can keep the law.

[hereticzero]

I don't know how christian say these folks are not typical christians and not REAL christians. Ever watch the loons outside of an abortion clinic protest--they are the same kind of people, only the clothes are different.

people who protest in front of abortion clinics are nutjobs too.

Your brand of christianity is THE brand, THE correct way of christianity? What parts has god imparted from his wisdom to you personally, in person, from his very own mouth and in front of what witnesses, did he himself tell you christianity is worth believing?

[hereticzero]

That's an interesting twist. God's laws don't apply to God - His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. BUT the whole point is that we're lost without Christ becuase none of us can keep the law.

 

How did I know you were going to cop out with such a smarmy ass aswer as that? That answer shows absolutely no thought process of your own but what has been puked out by every xtian whoever lost an argument concerning 'god's ways'. THINK! You have a mind of your own! The snake gave it to you in the garden of eden for god's sakes! Why repeat the same mantra of shallow and empty words? Think outside the NT for once. Do you quote from Little Red Robin Hood too? That story has more factual basis than the NT. We know it's fiction, we admit it's fiction. Why? Because it is silly to believe a wolf can swallow someone whole and then that person can still be alive after the wolf is slain. It is the same way about the story of creation and the fall of man. It is just as preposterous to have a talking snake beguile a child into accepting a magical fruit. When was the last time a snake spoke to you and offered you anything? If it happened then, it should happen now. You cannot discard the myth of genesis and only accept the myth of Jesus and call yourself a christian. The story of Jesus depends on the story of the talking snake to be true and if that story is true then so is the one of Little Red Riding Hood.

[hereticzero]

Man was originally left to explore creation as he chose and in any manner in which he chose, including beastiality and incest.

 

Has man always been heterosexual in sexual preference or has that mentality only developed after man chose to bond with a woman? Do all cultures share the same opinions about the homosexual lifestyle? Beliefs concerning male and female relationships vary from one country and culture to another. Homosexuality was widely accepted by the world until approximately 600 years after Christ and the rise of Islam. Within Catholicism, homosexuality was well known throughout the church. Over centuries, Christianity developed their theology condemning homosexuals as an abomination by reason of scriptural writings of the Old Testament and New Testament. The scribes are liars.

 

Christianity takes it upon itself to be the moral voice of the world, when in actuality most Christians have no clue what is right and wrong--they are so blinded by what they are told by the church they are unable to reason for themselves. They have to be told, by scripture and preaching, what to believe and how to behave. They can quote chapter and verse about what they believe because they supposedly find their rant printed nicely out for them in their Bibles. The biggest problem for their assertions is that the word 'homosexual' does not appear anywhere in the Old Testament or the New Testament, leaving the most ardent of believer scrambling to replace the term with whatever fits his or her religious doctrine. The closest word they can attribute God's damnation to is a 'sodomite' or one who is from Sodom. You may recall Sodom to be one of the unfortunate cities God destroyed. The story is found in the Old Testament Book of Genesis. In brief, according to biblical scripture, God sent some angels to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to warn a righteous man named Lot that God was going to utterly destroy the inhabitants because he could find none of them righteous. Before Lot and his family could flee the city, the inhabitants attacked the angels with a single-minded purpose of 'knowing' them in the biblical sense. The angels smote them all blind, Lot, his wife and daughters and the angels were able to escape but, God in his wisdom, turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt because she had to take one last look at the carnage. God's need for anger management is apparent in this story. How petty can a god get for turning someone into a salt-lick because they looked over their shoulder at the sound of death and destruction? Despite the loss of his wife, Lot was still able to procreate with his daughters and continue his lineage. Thus, heterosexuals claim with all self-righteousness, God smote Sodom and Gomorrah because they were homosexuals and spared Lot because he was a heterosexual, an incestuous heterosexual but one none the less! The scribes are liars.

 

Let's review this story and see what really happened. According to the Book of Genesis, angels appeared to Lot where he lived in Sodom to warn him that God was going to destroy the city as well as Gomorrah because the inhabitants were not righteous in God's eyes. Lot pleaded with God not to destroy the city even for the sake of one righteous man. The angels claimed God would not destroy the city if one righteous man could be found. Well who the hell was Lot if not a righteous man in God's eyes? If the angels came to warn Lot because he was a righteous man, then why didn't he qualify as the single righteous inhabitant of Sodom? God broke his promise to Lot and destroyed the city anyway. Christians point out that the inhabitants of Sodom attacked the angels wanting to have sexual intercourse with them and then the inhabitants were destroyed by God. Thus undeniably showing God's wrath against homosexuals. However, God did not voice his displeasure towards homosexuals over the incident, rather God killed a city full of heterosexuals who were behaving badly! It was not until many centuries later that this story was used to condemn homosexual behavior.

 

Centuries after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, another mythological figure, Moses, claimed God found homosexuality an abomination. This was after Moses spent many days and nights pounding ten commandments into two rocks that could fit into the palm of one hand. Out of these ten commandments, Moses, or it was attributed to him, gave the Israelites over 600 laws to obey. Among these laws was the rant against homosexuals--but it wasn't a law against homosexuals or Sodomites, it is the modern translations and denominational teachings of this biblical scripture that claims homosexuality is an abomination. The Hebrew or Greek word in the text does not translate into 'homosexual' or 'homosexuality' nor do the words translate into 'Sodomite' in any language. The Law of Moses refers to 'dogs' not homosexuals. 'Dogs' were temple prostitutes, not homosexuals. The prostitutes gave themselves, for a fee, to the believers to have sex with them in the name of the gods they served. Having sex with the prostitute was the same as having sex with the gods. It is the modern translation and interpretation of the bible that declares Moses was referring to homosexuals. It is a fraudulant interpretation and it is absolutely not true. Modern Christianity is preaching lies and stirring up resentment against nothing! Homosexuals are going to hurt you. They do not want you or your children. Pedophiles are predominantly heterosexual not homosexual!

 

Keep in mind that even the Bible's prophets declared the scribes of the word of God to be liars. The ancient scrolls were made from animal hides and sewn together which made the ancient way of cut and paste, unlacing and relacing hides, very convenient and acceptable to the controlling priests that ran the Jewish religion. This is how the laws were added over time. The hides were edited to reveal God's word magically appearing where it did not before and the masses were none the wiser. This is why the ancient prophets declared the scribes to be liars. The condemnation of homosexuality is a biblical lie written many years after Moses was dead and inserted into Old Testament scripture to be enforced under penalty of death. However, the law was never enforced in biblical times. The Bible does not record one incident in which God reprimanded or demanded a person be killed for being a homosexual or having been found in the act of homosexual intercourse. If you were one of the thousands of Israelites being led by the nose by Moses around the desert for 40 years, and you were gay, don't you think their all-knowing God, that knows everyone's hearts and minds, would have stopped the caravan and said something to someone and have you killed? There are many stories about God ordering someone's death and destruction for all kinds of infractions but none are found for homosexuality. Why? Because the law against homosexuality is a lie. The scribes are liars.

 

The Bible demands death for many infractions of the law that are noted as an abomination. The term 'abomination' in English signifies that which is exceptionally loathsome, hateful, wicked, or vile. An abomination occurs because whatever an abomination is, falls outside of normality as defined by Christianity and not humanity. An abomination is not expected but is a freak of nature. If the God of the Christian and Jewish Bible is all knowing then he should have foreseen the possibility that humanity would develop a sexual interest in each other, including an interest in the same sex. The fact that the Bible declares God's surprise and declaration of homosexual as an abomination demonstrates the law was written based on the ignorance of a human and not God's oration to Moses. The scribes are liars.

 

Need more proof? Consider the love affair between David and Jonathan, two Old Testament heroes. Throughout their love affair, God does not berate David and his playmate for being homosexuals. God does not bring any condemnation against David for being gay. God's only rant dealt with a woman David had an affair with and the woman's husband whom David had murdered. God chastised him for behaving badly with a woman. God had ample opportunity to smite him where he stood but remained silent concerning his homosexuality. Why? Because God accepted his homosexual nature as normal behavior. Only man declares it an abomination. The scribes are liars.

 

There is a lot of nonsense written in the Bible concerning 'sodomites'. The word 'sodomite' became synonymous with homosexuality sometime around the Dark Ages when the Christian church ruled the world with an iron rod from Rome. Over the centuries the Protestants have also taken up the mantle of gay-bashing, sometimes literally justifying their rampage is in accordance with scripture. They never brag about assaulting anyone because of Jesus Christ telling them to do so but rather scripture guides them, not the Holy Ghost. Even though Christians will swear they are ruled by the Holy Ghost and love everybody but hate the sin, they will use scripture to give credibility to their violence and outspoken hatred towards whatever they believe is in violation of biblical scripture. This outspoken hatred includes homosexuals. The Christian modernist decrying God's condemnation of homosexuals bases his opinion upon ancient scriptures written by unknown authors, scriptures shown to be untrue by wording alone. Homosexuality is and has always been an acceptable expression of love and affection perverted only by the minds of religious fanatics bent on controlling every aspect of our lives from birth to the grave, including who we choose to share our lives with.

 

The scribes are liars.

[Neon Genesis]

That's an interesting twist. God's laws don't apply to God - His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. BUT the whole point is that we're lost without Christ becuase none of us can keep the law.

Funny, that sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship to me. And if God's ways are above our ways, how do you know what God's ways are towards homosexuals? You also didn't answer my question if we should teach children that God thinks they should die if they disobey mommy and daddy and if that would count as a child abuse.

[Kuroikaze]

I see you are referring to Leviticus law. The law makes us realize that we can’t possibly live up to it and that we are guilty. Christ didn’t come to do away with the law but to fulfill it His death on the cross made it possible for us to not have to pay for our transgressions The new testament talks about the people who do these kinds of things (unnatural affections, etc) are worthy of death, but we are not told to kill them. If we use Christ’s example, we would go to them and reach out to them. Hating sin is not the same thing as hating the sinner.

 

Besides, I don’t care what anyone says, that guy in Westboro is a nut job and if he’s “following the Bible†is his own interpretation of what he has taken out of context.

 

PS You do realize his “God hates fags†protest at solder’s funerals doesn’t even have anything to do with the soldier’s sexual orientation, right? Not that it would make a difference if it did.

 

And Other Christians would claim that your interpretation is the wrong one. Just admit to yourself that "interpretation of the bible" is just a code word for "your opinion" The problem is that the bible doesn't have a single message, people are fed theology through a church, and then the selectively read the parts of the bible that fit their preconceived notions.

 

There is no "real" Christianity, just a bunch of different opinions on the right way to believe. There is no evidence to suggest your opinion is any more correct, even if your beliefs are less offensive than these guys, but then being less offensive than Westboro does not give one bragging rights.

[Kuroikaze]

That's an interesting twist. God's laws don't apply to God - His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. BUT the whole point is that we're lost without Christ becuase none of us can keep the law.

 

 

There is no evidence to suggest that the laws in the bible are perfect (and thus should be followed without question) there is a lot of evidence that the laws are imperfect, which you would already realize if you let your self think without the blinders of dogma.

 

The reason no one can keep the law is because the "law" is bigoted, misogynistic, badly written, confusing, contradictory, hate filled, nonsense that any modern person would need a lobotomy to take seriously. Even you ignore or reinterpret the parts you don't like as it suits your needs.

[Grandpa Harley]

That's an interesting twist. God's laws don't apply to God - His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. BUT the whole point is that we're lost without Christ becuase none of us can keep the law.

 

Define 'unnatural'. I'm still waiting... and if we are made in God's image, then the whole Job clause is bullshit. His ways are far too much our ways... hell, he couldn't make a servant (Satan) correctly. Far too human. But then vacuity is a speciality of yours... You may be winning brownie points with Jesus, but you ain't winning converts you poisonous nutjob.

[Alice]

What do people think about the legal aspects of this - is what they are doing exercising their right to free speech - and if so do you guys support their right to do so?

 

On another issue - if this family lived in the UK, I think it is likely all the children would be on the Child Protection Register under the category 'Emotional Abuse' and we'd be embroiled in that ghastly grey area of trying to work out if it was more harmful to remove them from their parents care or more harmful to leave them there.

[crazy-tiger]

God's laws don't apply to God

Why not? How do you know? After all...

His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts.

You seem to be admitting that you don't know, that you can't know, what God is planning or thinking... or if his laws apply to him or not.

[Grandpa Harley]

Debating logic with a moron is like pissing yourself in dark pants... you feel better for a while,and no one notices but in the end it's just cold wet and stinky...

[MathGeek]

Here's something oddly funny...

 

Heath Ledger died and I immediately checked the Westboro website. Nothing yet on how he deserves to be in hell for lying with another man on screen.