R. S. Martin Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I solute all of you with the energy to raise kids, and support them emotionally after they're raised. If nobody raised more kids than I did this world would be a very depressing place...Actually, there was a time when I hungered so much for having kids that I looked into doing foster care but that was before my people allowed telephones so Child and Family Services didn't even consider me. I never wanted a man. I just wanted the kids. But these days when I read on here about parents worrying about their kids, no matter if they're babies or adults or somewhere in between, I feel so GLAD that I don't have to worry about anybody besides myself. When people my age or just a bit older get grandkids I am happy for them but ever so glad it's not me who is having them. Then I feel so guilty for being so selfish and I wonder what's the matter with me. I know there are other middle-aged people on here who don't have kids and there are young people on here who have decided they won't have kids but they know their parents won't like their decision. I have a feeling this is a religious versus nonreligious topic and I wonder if we could discuss some of the issues around it. I'm not even sure what it is that religion has to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Ruby even in my fundy days I never understood how it is "selfish" to not want kids. I actaully think it is far more selfish to have a child so you can have someone that will "always love you." Yes, if ever person on the planet said "you know what... no more kids for me" Human beings would end, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Isn't it better, and less selfish to say "I don't think I have the energy or paticence for children", and then to not have them? I have children, one is no longer a child at all. Children mean loss of income, loss of sleep, loss of time. They can mean loss of friends and even your physical and mental well being. Plus, it never ends, I guess it could, but I don't think it will for me. Often I see things on the news, or even in person and I think the world would be a better place if more people would say, you know what? um no I don't think children are for me. Ruby I for one do not see someone who has made that decision as selfish, and I do not see them as lacking in anyway. Only you can know if having children is right for you, and if its not then I applaud you having the courage to not give in to the societal pressure to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I think most here know why I never had or never wanted children, but to restate... Based on the way my family dies, there is nothing in my genetics that I could, in all conscience, hand on to another generation. Nor would I inflict the care for me on someone who loved me, unless they knew what they were getting into. My family die hard and ugly. OK, inheritance is a craps game, but I wasn't prepared to gamble with someone else's future. I've ridden the trail of caring for a parent, I've seen the way we die, and, although by nature I'm not a worrier, I see no merit in handing the sword of Damocles on. 50 is a watershed age for us, and I have 7 years to run. Our 'curse' can hit at any time after that. But even now, sometimes, you ponder, in the small hours when sleep won't come, every memory lapse of the day, every minorly irrational thought and you wonder... has it begun... Who could hand THAT on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I have never thought someone selfish for not having children and hadn't ever heard that it was considered selfish by some religious groups before I joined these forums. I really don't think the idea that religious people should have big families is around big time in the UK (most religious people here see the command 'to be fruitful nad multiply' to be one that mankind has already fulfilled) However, I have been told repeatedly by a wide range of people that I am selfish for having had four children. I can understand why others would think this. My desire to have oodles of grandchildren has been tempered by my concern for the planet. Of course its now impossible to imagine life without the creation of my four children but intellectually (not emotionally) if I had my life over I would have built a family of the same size but incorporating adoption and fostercare, not just children of my own. People that call other people 'selfish' for making life choices that are different to their own are attempting to exert some kind of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no-one Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 There is nothing wrong with not wanting kids and nothing abnormal either. I know plenty of people that have no plans to have children. It's not selfish at all, it would be far worse to have children you didn't even want just because you felt like you had to. I know some people have a tough time understanding why you wouldn't want children but I think it sucks that you should have to justify your decision. (likewise with people that have a lot of children) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabula Rasa Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I solute all of you with the energy to raise kids, and support them emotionally after they're raised. If nobody raised more kids than I did this world would be a very depressing place...Actually, there was a time when I hungered so much for having kids that I looked into doing foster care but that was before my people allowed telephones so Child and Family Services didn't even consider me. I never wanted a man. I just wanted the kids. But these days when I read on here about parents worrying about their kids, no matter if they're babies or adults or somewhere in between, I feel so GLAD that I don't have to worry about anybody besides myself. When people my age or just a bit older get grandkids I am happy for them but ever so glad it's not me who is having them. Then I feel so guilty for being so selfish and I wonder what's the matter with me. I know there are other middle-aged people on here who don't have kids and there are young people on here who have decided they won't have kids but they know their parents won't like their decision. I have a feeling this is a religious versus nonreligious topic and I wonder if we could discuss some of the issues around it. I'm not even sure what it is that religion has to do with it. Ruby, there's nothing at all wrong with not having kids. The only thing worse than the fanatics in Christianity are the reproduction fanatics, the people who regardless of religion or culture insist you have to have children. I don't have children and I don't ever plan to have any. Every child should be wanted, and no one should have children just because of societal expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Being prone to worry and pessimism and with not much maternal instinct it is best I never had children of my own. While I was married (for 6 years) I had two stepchildren and that was not a happy experience for me or them. It definately was best for me that I didn't have children. Not everyone is suited for it. I have never felt selfish or guilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Ruby, As a parent, I can pipe in and say there is nothing selfish about not wanting to have kids. From the broader perspective, there are already too many people in the world. From that perspective, it is I who am part of the problem, not you. If I worry about my kids, well, I also love my kids, so I don't think that's a bad bargain for me. However, it's not really in anyone's best interest (kids included) to have kids unless the prospective parents both WANT children and will make good parents. Far too many people have children who shouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 50 is a watershed age for us, and I have 7 years to run. Our 'curse' can hit at any time after that. But even now, sometimes, you ponder, in the small hours when sleep won't come, every memory lapse of the day, every minorly irrational thought and you wonder... has it begun... Who could hand THAT on? I certainly won't ever be having more kids. No male in my family, dad or mom's side ever lived past 63. Heart conditions, liver problems, crap like that. And both my grandma and great grandma, as well as my aunt all have alzihiemers. Men never got it because they didn't live long enough, the women start showing symptoms in their 70s. So If I make it through the 60s guess what fun I have waiting for me? Had my kids fairly early in life, they are grown now, but no more, it's off the table now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Yeah, I was busy carving out and losing empires before I was 35. Who had time for kids? And even then, with kidney failure, cancer and some ill defined dementia in the family, I wasn't much in the market for handing that shit on from the age of 18. Rather like my brother before me, I had a handle on death early in life, although considerably more sanguine than he... death still doesn't bother me. It's the window I'm going through that stopped my genes being handed on... But as I say, it's a craps game... you and I could be celebrating our respective centenaries in a Cathouse outside Reno that specialises in nude Philadelphia cream cheese wrestling on 'Karaoke' night Chances are heaven don't want me and Hell daren't take me... I'd lower the tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhia Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Ruby, There's nothing wrong or selfish about not having children - for whatever reason you choose, not just overpopulation. You are NOT a baby-machine. I'm so unsure of my own genetics (being adopted and my own bio mom claiming so many problems and diseases) that I'm saving up for a genetic panel. As much as I want kids, if I find that my mother has been correct about something (though I doubt she is) I'll refrain from having children of my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution_beyond Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Nothing selfish about it at all. Quite the opposite in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 If I had to do it all over again, I'm not sure if I would have had children. While the women in my family birth babies like cats, I somehow wasn't posessed with that ability. Pregnancy and childbirth took a heavy toll on me physically. I simply wasn't made for birthing babies. I do not want grandchildren. While I have to admit, I have no control over this, at least my oldest daughter is smart enough to realise, at 18, she doesn't want any. She never liked children even when she was one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted January 22, 2008 Author Share Posted January 22, 2008 Thank you for all of your supportive and compassionate answers. I appreciate it very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric_PK Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I solute all of you with the energy to raise kids, and support them emotionally after they're raised. If nobody raised more kids than I did this world would be a very depressing place...Actually, there was a time when I hungered so much for having kids that I looked into doing foster care but that was before my people allowed telephones so Child and Family Services didn't even consider me. I never wanted a man. I just wanted the kids. But these days when I read on here about parents worrying about their kids, no matter if they're babies or adults or somewhere in between, I feel so GLAD that I don't have to worry about anybody besides myself. When people my age or just a bit older get grandkids I am happy for them but ever so glad it's not me who is having them. Then I feel so guilty for being so selfish and I wonder what's the matter with me. I know there are other middle-aged people on here who don't have kids and there are young people on here who have decided they won't have kids but they know their parents won't like their decision. I have a feeling this is a religious versus nonreligious topic and I wonder if we could discuss some of the issues around it. I'm not even sure what it is that religion has to do with it. Having kids is often portrayed as selfless, but in reality its a very selfish undertaking. People who spend a lot of time raising their kids well have my admiration, but it's no more selfless than those who spend a lot of time planting trees, or cleaning up beaches, or anything else. I think your decision is fine. My only disappointment is that religions tend to program people towards more kids as a way of getting more converts (ie the sects that don't believe in having kids tend not to last for very long), and non-religious tend to have fewer kids, but I don't think that's a reason to have kids. Those who adopt kids out of bad circumstances or are foster parents aren't in quite the same category in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 I've never wanted kids. People always tell me I'll change my mind. I'm 31....pretty sure I know my own mind by now....yet they still say it. I think when I hit 35, I'm just going to start being BRUTALLY honest. Butthead: "You'll change your mind" Me: "Really? Because you know, the thought of feeling something moving around inside me make me just want to scream and run into traffic. Parasites give me a serious case of the heebie jeebies, and anything that is sustained by my bloodstream, and is not "me" IS a parasite. And frankly, the idea of something latched orally to my tit to draw sustenence from my body....just triggers a deep sensation of anger, hatred, and violence within me. So are you really really SURE you want me to change my mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 When I was in my teens I thought I wanted to have kids, because That's Just What People Do. Twenty years, two marriages, and one divorce later, I've realized that I've never actually wanted to have kids, as an individual. Kids are cool, but they're hard fucking work; and I could never come up with any reason to have any that wasn't totally self-centered. I could never come up with a reason for having kids that would satisfy me enough to have them. I'm 35 now. No kids for me, and that's fine. My sis has one, and that's awesome - the family line is passed on, whatever the hell that means. I don't have to lose any sleep, shift my lifestyle around, or spend the $225,000+ it takes to raise a kid to 18 these days (not counting college expenses). Fuck anybody who thinks I'm selfish. I know what it's like to be raised by someone who wasn't wanted as a child. It's a fucking nightmare. My biomother had deep, painful emotional holes to fill, and she had children as a way of trying to fill them. No fucking way I'll ever inflict that on a little kid. Being a crappy parent is a far worse sin than not being a parent at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted January 23, 2008 Author Share Posted January 23, 2008 I know what it's like to be raised by someone who wasn't wanted as a child. It's a fucking nightmare. My biomother had deep, painful emotional holes to fill, and she had children as a way of trying to fill them. No fucking way I'll ever inflict that on a little kid. Being a crappy parent is a far worse sin than not being a parent at all. Gwen, thanks! That is my argument for abortion. And yeah, it also fits for not having kids, when I think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueheron Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Before we adopted, I felt the same way. There seemed to be this invisible pressure from society about having kids, or at least from friends w/kids and my M-I-L. I just could never see why anybody would have kids, I am not the maternal type. When I was about 30, I began to change a bit on it, not about having my own kids - babies, but just having a child in our lives. We have adopted an older child, internationally, and it has worked out great for us. Some might think we were selfish to choose exactly how we wanted children to fit into our life, but for us, an older child was the only way to go. I am not the maternal type, and do not want a baby, toddler, etc. Our son is a great kid who is adding a lot of fun to our lives. With an older child, I still have the independence I did before, and we haven't noticed that he is expensive, lol. Maybe this is yet to come, I don't know. The only big expense in our lives is the house payment. We only have 6 more years with him before he will graduate and so I realize I want to get all the fun in with him that I can. Then he will slowly ease into his own life, which will be his to conduct. Don't let anyone make you feel bad for not having kids. And the same goes for the ones who have more than 2 or 3 kids. We are adopting one more and that will be it. But this children issue is so personal and each situation is different. Enjoy your life as it's your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted January 23, 2008 Author Share Posted January 23, 2008 And frankly, the idea of something latched orally to my tit to draw sustenence from my body....just triggers a deep sensation of anger, hatred, and violence within me. So are you really really SURE you want me to change my mind? Personally, I see nothing wrong with not having kids or having kids. That is my personal position when I'm thinking logically. But sometimes the illogical part of me takes over and that has been happening somewhat frequently the last while when people talked about their kids. All I could think was "How glad I am that I don't have kids." Then I would feel guilty for feeling that way. What is selfless about wanting to sleep all night? What is selfless about wanting to spend all my money only on me? Purple shows the two sides so well: Ruby even in my fundy days I never understood how it is "selfish" to not want kids. I actaully think it is far more selfish to have a child so you can have someone that will "always love you." <snip> Children mean loss of income, loss of sleep, loss of time. They can mean loss of friends and even your physical and mental well being. Plus, it never ends, I guess it could, but I don't think it will for me. For all those losses I think it would be logical to say not having kids is selfish. On the other hand, what good am I doing anyone by putting another human on this planet? Oh... Yeah... Now I'm beginning to see why it could be seen as selfish. So *I* have someone who will always love *me.* Having someone to always love me was the only reason I remotely wanted children when I was in my teens and twenties. Another reason people have kids is so they have someone to take care of them when they are old. One of my sisters who has no children has been worried as to who will take care of her in her old age. She never had a chance to get married and having no children was not her choice. I can't help but suspect that part of her devotion to the children she babysits is a hope for reciprocal care when she is old. But I know she genuinely loves children. That's the question I had failed to ask myself: What good anyone would get from me putting another human on this planet. That puts the whole thing into perspective. My mother was basically a baby machine. I didn't understand that at the time, though this might explain my confusion or brainwashing on the matter. I was the first and the babies came every year. Mom confided many years later that she would have been disappointed if she could not have had any babies but she wondered at times why there had to be so many. (My people believed totally in the "will of god" doctrine, no birth control or family planning whatsoever.) I had no idea that she wasn't as happy with each new baby as I was. Maybe a lot of her talk was trying to convince herself that having so many kids was a great thing. And I took it at face value. I think I knew on some level that the "many babies" was a contentious issue, but she had told me when I was little that babies came from God. I grew up and never knew better. How could anyone fault anyone if God gave a certain family so many babies? It made no sense. Period. Besides, the idea that one or another, or more, of my siblings--the people around the table--should not be there was unthinkable. So I didn't think it. I think, however, that Dad blames himself for Mom's death a year ago. He "couldn't let her go" so she had so many babies; her last (12th) pregnancy was in 1975. I'm quite sure the idea that he should have "let her go" came from an earlier generation. Sounds like something his father could have imposed on him. When his father died, he left more money to his children who had large families because he realized in his old age that it cost more to raise large families than smaller ones. My parents took that as an act of reconciliation for years of injustice. Thus, there could be a direct connection between Dad's self-blame of not being able to "let her go" and the contentions I sensed when I was growing up. If that is correct, then religious ideas about sex might also play into some of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted January 23, 2008 Author Share Posted January 23, 2008 Having said all that, I am afraid someone will take me as saying they shouldn't have kids because it's selfish. I am NOT saying that. I LOVE having children and young people and families around. I just need my own space and lots of control as to when they are in my life. And for the record, I started providing childcare when I was less than two years old myself. I was expected to keep my baby sister happy so my mother could do more important things. Like I said, the babies kept on coming. I loved them. It was from them that I got unconditional love. What hurt was that when they grew up they hated me for being a bossy big sister. Yet I had been supposed to keep them in line. From the age of 16 to late thirties I worked with other people's children in various capacities. So I guess I did spend a lifetime working with children. Maybe that is why I need some space now; I started really early--while still a baby myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 I'm surprised no one has mentioned hormones. Aren't these the little blighters that decide whether we want children or not? My desire to have children wasn't really something that emanated from the rational reasoning part of my brain, it was much more primeval than that! The only selfishness I can see around the subject is in the idea that some third party can determine how many children someone should produce and make it mean something other than - this person has a child. It must be truly awful to live in a community where only those with oodles of offspring are considered blessed - if you do not want to have children or cannot have children for any reason. It must be painful to live in a community where one is only allowed to have one child if Motherhood makes your soul sing. It must be awful to find yourself pregnant year after year because your community forbids contraception. It must be awful to be expected to live contrary to the way your body wishes to express itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mentalhh Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 I admit that I may like to have kids, but I'd rather adopt them rather than go through the whole passing my genetics thing. I don't see the big deal about passing my genes. Its suppossed to be imprinted on every animal (I study Biology- this is Heather by the way, of the "Then it happened- the hell fire sermon"!). But I don't really have it to an intense degree. I'm only 20. I would like to have a partner, as practically bi I guess it doesn't matter which gender. Like mentioned by somebody having kids is bloody hard work and NOT to be taken lightly. You sometimes see people married at 16/18 and have already shot out their first, maybe even 2nd kid by the time they are my age. Its not common but it happens. I couldn't do that! If I do have kids I'll be waiting for another 10 years at least thank you! My mother planned for me and my sis, but she had birth problems and She'd miscarried a few times before me and after my sis. Apparently I almost got lost too! Seems freaky now. My mum had me in her mid 30s, he rmother was MY AGE when she gave birth to my mum's brother! (Scary). But then my mother had her career and all, and of course the problems. I got really angry once when I heard a case of a priest who told a woman who miscarried she was living in sin a few years back, and God was punishing her- the beginning of my 'fall' from christianity almost. I can't remember the source exactly... I mean my mother was (still is) a GREAT parent. Sick bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 This is an odd thing coming from a man, but I don't remember my hormones ever coming out on top of reason... up to and including declining hot wild monkey sex since it seemed to me to be leading in a direction I didn't want to go in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 I got really angry once when I heard a case of a priest who told a woman who miscarried she was living in sin a few years back, and God was punishing her- the beginning of my 'fall' from christianity almost. I can't remember the source exactly... I mean my mother was (still is) a GREAT parent. Sick bastard. That is pretty common... IIRC, it features in one of my friend's anti-testimony... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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