Am I Wrong?

[Kenny]

I'm new here and I haven't read nearly all the posts I'm interested in, but thus far, I've really enjoyed and appreciated nearly everything I've read to this point. I felt no need to post a topic until I began to see so many different points of view and a lot of good ol' fashioned common sense. This has me feeling open (vulnerable???) and wanting honest opinions about the situation I find myself in. I want to start by saying that I'm making the move away from Christianity at a pace that I'm comfortable with and I know that, ultimately, I'll be totally free of it. I'm not really looking for advice per se, but I am interested in your thoughts on my current place. It's important to me that I have honest opinions, so please speak freely. Thanks in advance for reading this and any comments or thoughts you care to send my way.

 

How I got where I am in a nutshell: I was raised Christian, but my family seldom attended services. During my teen years, I believed what I was told and burned all my rock albums... only to immediately regret that and feel like an idiot. After I left home, I went buck wild and experienced as much as I could as a local musician in a college town. I did have problems with drugs and alcohol, but these problems mostly stemmed from the fact that I became very irresponsible and had minor legal problems. I went into rehab as a show of good faith, got clean, got a haircut and a real job. I married at age 21, first child came at 24, joined the military at 25, second child came at age 29, and the wife and I began attending a pentacostal church when I was 34. We both became believers, had good friends who discipled us, and in a couple of years, I was leading my first travelling Christian music ministry. Two other churches followed and my final Christian band enjoyed decent success within the state. This was when everything began to fall apart. I saw firsthand how churches use people up (especially bands) and throw them away. I saw some of the meanest, most deceitful people I've seen in my life running churches and programs. In general, I saw how "church stuff" seems to bring out the worst in people - myself included - and I ceased all activity within the church. In fact, the only reason I went was because my wife enjoys it, my kids are happy, and it keeps the peace. I don't believe in the Bible, I don't believe in the Christian god, and for the most part, I think the church and religion sow more division than any good they do. I don't hate it, but I don't agree with it and I certainly don't believe in it.

 

Where I am now: After the on staff worship leader and Sunday school teacher for the 30's and 40's adults left for a much larger church, the church asked me to take over and is paying me to lead worship (I can't "lead" worship, but I can run the heck out of a band) and teach his class. I don't mind rehearsing the music and the band is very talented and fun to work with. The worship service is blended (a couple of hymns and three contemporary tunes), so even though it's not the music I listen to, I have a lot of freedom to interpret the hymns as I please and we rock out on the other stuff. Plus, unlike so many experiences in the past, the church pays me. As a musician, I believe a good band creates an atmosphere, regardless of the style or genre of music, and when the congregation is moved to worship, then I feel I've done my job. I have no issues with this because my skills as a musician are the driving force there. I prefer blues rock music and I throw as much of it in the worship mix as I can as well as many other styles. I have played country music and not enjoyed it at all; that had no bearing on the fact that folks were scootin' their boots all night long and having a great time. It's a service. A job. A contribution. I don't feel great conviction for many of the rock songs I've ever sung, so I don't worry that I don't feel conviction for the worship lyrics. It's a job they've asked me to do, I feel I do it well, and they compensate me. The band's tight and we sound good, everyone's happy, and I have no difficulty at all with that.

 

The Sunday school class, however, allows me a lot of freedom. At this point, allow me say that I believe in Christian principles - helping people, loving others, forgiveness, repentence, charity, honesty - the normal stuff that if there was no religion or god on the planet, the average person would try to follow in order to be a human being of any worth. I'm a good husband, father, friend, and employee if I do say so myself. I try very hard to be anyway. The reason why I continue to teach this class is because of a book called unChristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity... and Why It Matters by David Kinnaman and Gabe Lyons. The basic purpose of the book is to call the Christian's attention to how "outsiders" feel about them, their church, and their religion. I believe in what 99% of this book discusses because, even though I attend church and contribute to it, I am an "outsider". I don't believe for many reasons, but the vast majority of the reasons why I turned away from Christianity have to do with Christians themselves. The book points out the perceptions of "outsiders" and offers real tools for the Christian who really cares (and they are out there) and wants to do their part in changing any/all of the crummy habits they've learned or been raised with. In a similar way to the musical contributions I make, I feel that I'm doing something worthwhile in exposing many of the things that make Christianity so unappealing to many people and at the same time, providing those who believe with knowledge and ways to fix some of these issues.

 

I've told you what I do. As for what I don't do, I don't pray - in public, in my home, or in private - nor do I ask anyone to. If someone requests that in the class, fine with me. I don't speak the Christian mumbo-jumbo that so many love to hear themselves say and never have. I don't profess to be a minister of any kind. My wife is aware of my lack of belief, but she's doing her best to allow me that freedom because she's my friend and though she doesn't agree with me, she understands and loves me anyway. I keep my opinions to myself, especially around my children, and I don't engage in debates or in religious discussion inside the or outside the church other than the Sunday school class and even then, there is little theology. I respect thier belief and their faith. It's not for me anymore, but I do respect their right to believe and worship as they wish and, heck, I even help 'em out with it. I'm quite certain that people believe I'm a Christian for several reasons - first, because I once was a very public Christian involved in ministry. I live what most Christians (or the average joe) would call a good life and I do attend services. I haven't renounced my former beliefs in a public forum, so at best (or at worst), I allow myself to be seen as a practicing Christian. I know that, in time, I will make my break from the church... probably when my children are on their own and can perhaps understand that I'm not a believer and why. They benefit greatly from the church (it's a pretty good one as far as most churches go) and they, along with my wife, enjoy attending there. But I know I will leave it behind when the time is right for me to do so without inflicting damage on my family when my kids are still so impressionable. As I said before, I'm happy with the pace of this transition I'm making and as I let Christianity go little by little, I feel happier, healthier, and more in control of my life than I've ever felt before.

 

So... am I wrong? Am I causing damage? Am I hypocritical?

[florduh]

No need to quote the whole part. Message from Hans.

So... am I wrong? Am I causing damage? Am I hypocritical?

 

 

Welcome!

 

You specifically aren't asking advice, but I have a couple of observations.

 

I didn't leave Christianity because of the people. I figured out that the basis of belief for all the congregations, good and bad, was a load of shit. Believing that the Bible was the inerrant Word of God became impossible after years of mental gymnastics trying to make it work. You don't need to know bad Christians in order to stop believing.

 

Additionally, I think children can't possibly benefit from constant exposure to the cult. Yeah, they can sing, play music, enjoy being on the basketball team, but those activities are only in place to facilitate their brainwashing. Eventually, the kids may, even as adults, be very upset because when they die they won't see you in heaven.

 

In my opinion, it is never a bad thing to be honest with yourself, family and friends. I like to leave the hypocrisy to the Christians - they're so good at it.

 

- Chris

[GraphicsGuy]

Welcome to the site...

 

So... am I wrong? Am I causing damage? Am I hypocritical?

 

You're in an odd-ball situation for certain.

 

Are you wrong about what you're doing? I honestly can't say because I can't relate to your situation at all. I certainly could not do it...

 

Are you causing damage? Perhaps you yourself are not causing damage, but I do believe that religion damages people. Faith, per sey, does not, but religion does.

 

Are you being hypocritical? Well, not with us. You've been honest in your OP, but I would certainly say that if the truth came out at your church the shit will hit the fan. I think you could be setting yourself up for a shit beatin'. Plus, I'm assuming that you basically have to lie-by-omission in order to create a facade of religious faith.

 

Like I said, I couldn't do it. I be too worried about repercussion and my conflicted moral standpoints.

 

But, that's me.

[webmdave]

So... am I wrong? Am I causing damage? Am I hypocritical?

 

Most of the good church musicians and choir directors where I live are not Christians, but they don't talk about religion one way or the other. The reason is, is that they are musicians who are playing a gig for money. Don't criticize the bar that pays you. Ya know?

 

And as far as I'm concerned, there's nothing wrong with making music at a church or anywhere else.

[Manditag in AK]

Well, I have to agree with the PP's, I couldn't do it either. That's not to say I wouldn't try for a while, but I do think eventually you are going to encounter problems. How old are your children? If they're all in the single digits can you really see yourself doing this for another ten to twelve YEARS?

 

I'm glad you have at least an accomodating wife, if not an understanding one. From personal experience a supportive spouse makes a world of difference.

 

Right now, I am eliminating the things I really can't handle about Christianity. It seems honestly that you are staying mostly for the music. Maybe you could keep on doing the music and eliminate the sunday school? Because saying the same things over and over that you don't believe are going to do one of two things: reconvert you, or make you really hateful and bitter-at least given enough time.

 

Hope that gives you some thought food.

 

Mandy

[Eric_PK]

I don't think what you're doing is immoral, so I don't think I have an opinion on whether it is wrong or not.

 

If you find either the fellowship of the church or the money you receive to be sufficient incentive to attend, then that seems find to me. I have a hard time being in religious worship situations because I think it's such a waste of time, but nobody's ever offered to pay for it.

 

My only concern is that of your children. You write that your early experiences in church weren't especially great for you, but you're allowing your children to be in the same sort of situation you were in.

 

My personal opinion is that indoctrinating children in religion is wrong, and that they should be allowed to make an objective decision when they are capable of understanding what the decision is (say, mid-late teens). That obviously can't happen if they're in a family where they think everybody believes and they go to church (or at least the kind of churches I've gone to).

 

Though it is true that some kids are into church just because it lets them hang out with other kids, and have a nice trusting adults with them on outings so they don't get caught... well, doing the things that teenagers like to do.

 

Having said all that, I think that everybody has to decide these things on their own.

[Deva]

As I said before, I'm happy with the pace of this transition I'm making and as I let Christianity go little by little, I feel happier, healthier, and more in control of my life than I've ever felt before.

 

So... am I wrong? Am I causing damage? Am I hypocritical?

 

I think only you can be the judge of that. I don't know your whole situation but it seems like overall the church is positive for you and your family rather than damaging from what you say.

 

I am kind of curious as to what denomination church it is. Maybe a very liberal one? The music ministry wouldn't bother me but the Sunday School teaching-- to me would be the questionable aspect. I don't know. You say it is "Christian principles - helping people, loving others, forgiveness, repentence, charity, honesty - the normal stuff that if there was no religion or god on the planet, the average person would try to follow in order to be a human being of any worth." Probably none of us here on this site would have any problem with that, if, indeed that is all it is.

[R. S. Martin]

Kenny, you say you don't want advice but you ask whether you are wrong. I guess you're asking for judgment. I don't like passing judgment overtly but I do love analyzing people. You provide a lot of material.

 

I get the impression that you know yourself very well, that you have given a lot of thought to your position, that you know what you want to do, that you have a fairly good idea how this will impact yourself and those dear to you, and that you take all of this into consideration with everybody's best interests at heart to the best of your understanding. The only way I know to improve on this would be to take them into your confidence and discuss with them how they would prefer the transition to be managed. One would have to be sensitive to providing age-appropriate information to the children--not to over-burden young minds with adult issues, but not to under-estimate their insight either.

 

As to the question: Am I hypocritical?

 

There is one thing I notice. You say you keep your opinions to yourself. Is that for the sake of peace or because you feel your opinions are inferior, i.e. "bad"? I used to be of the opinion that I had to be satisfied if given the right to live in peace as an atheist. However, something someone said on here alerted me to the fact that there is nothing inferior about atheism. We have just as much right to speak up as any Christian. However, the cold harsh reality is that might makes right and Christendom has more might in much of our land and therefore can force its will upon others. I have learned to choose my battles.

 

I am the good little girl so far as the neighbours and local folk see me. I am studying theology at a seminary and I make no secret of that fact. But I also have strong connections with the local Freethinker group. I write for their magazine under a pen-name and I spend much time here on exC. This area where I live is crawling with fundies. I don't want them to connect the name of my website and forums (in my sig) with my face and real name. Of course, around here where I live nobody identifies as fundy; they all think the real fundies are someone else (those horrid people over there that they don't like) so maybe it would be safe but I'd rather not risk it.

 

So, am I hypocritical? As all get-out! BUT, I had to learn at a very early age not to share all I knew or was thinking with others. People would jump on me if I did. But the irony of it all is: For about fifteen to twenty years before I deconverted I talked with my sisters about my querries into the faith yet when I actually deconverted they acted as though I had betrayed them.

 

I feel the crux of the matter is intent. You say:

 

In a similar way to the musical contributions I make, I feel that I'm doing something worthwhile in exposing many of the things that make Christianity so unappealing to many people and at the same time, providing those who believe with knowledge and ways to fix some of these issues.

 

I have not read the book you are referring to but I support anyone who works against the abuses of religion. Many people here think the demise of religion is the way to go. I am not sure that is realistic. It might be some time down the road but not in the next several centuries. I think humans in general need to evolve more before that can happen. What does seem realistic is a gentler approach to oneself, one's fellow human, and one's religion. I think the place to start is the self and the human-divine relationship. My guess is the book you read, and by extension you, more or less targets the human-divine relationship.

 

Irrespective of whether or not deities exist, it is the perception of the human-divine relationship that is important. Just thought I'd clarify that.

 

I don't know if that answers your questions but then, I didn't intend to do that. I think we need to each evaluate our own situation by weighing the pros and cons. My aim was to stimulate thought, share ideas, perhaps help with identifying pros and cons.

[Kenny]

First, I want to thank everyone who's responded thus far. It means a lot to me and I value your thoughts. I want to respond to individuals and for anyone else who cares to read in order to answer questions or to clarify - I don't really know how to "work" everything here, so I'll go with the only way I know how!

 

I didn't leave Christianity because of the people. I figured out that the basis of belief for all the congregations, good and bad, was a load of shit.

 

Additionally, I think children can't possibly benefit from constant exposure to the cult. Yeah, they can sing, play music, enjoy being on the basketball team, but those activities are only in place to facilitate their brainwashing.

 

- Chris

 

Thanks, Chris! I'd have to say in my case, I didn't begin to question theology (much) because the folks who introduced me to it were what I'd call "real deal" Christians. It was easy to understand what they were saying because it matched their lives. But as time passed, I met more and more people who said the same things, but acted in a manner that defied their own words. While I ultimately came to the conclusion that the Christian faith is something I don't believe in, the people I came into contact with were the catalyst for beginning to question. As for my children, you hit the nail on the head as far as the activities, but in a later post, Eric_PK elaborates a bit more and I'll address that a bit later. As far as honesty goes, I believe that, ultimately, I'm being honest with myself and, in time, I'll be able to be totally upfront due to that fact. Thanks again, Chris.

 

 

I would certainly say that if the truth came out at your church the shit will hit the fan. I think you could be setting yourself up for a shit beatin'. Plus, I'm assuming that you basically have to lie-by-omission in order to create a facade of religious faith.

 

You make a very valid point, graphicsguy. Thank you for your comments. I know full well that when the day comes that I leave the church, there will be many questions. My intent isn't to stand up and make any kind of announcement because life has enough drama... no need in me creating more by dropping a bomb on a Sunday morning. There is a former staff member who knows how I feel and he is also still a friend. He disagrees with me, but still calls me friend. I know that the vast majority of the congregation, should they find out the details, would shun me and I'm prepared for that. Again, I've seen people at their most primal in a church setting. And, you are correct in the fact that I am lying by omission, but I go to great lengths to avoid any appearance as anything other than a normal guy. A facade of religious faith is something I'm not interested in and even doing what I do in the church, I view myself and conduct myself as a servant rather than a leader. I honestly do. Repercussion is, indeed, coming. No doubt about that.

 

 

I couldn't do it either. That's not to say I wouldn't try for a while, but I do think eventually you are going to encounter problems. How old are your children? If they're all in the single digits can you really see yourself doing this for another ten to twelve YEARS?

 

I'm glad you have at least an accomodating wife, if not an understanding one. From personal experience a supportive spouse makes a world of difference.

 

Right now, I am eliminating the things I really can't handle about Christianity. It seems honestly that you are staying mostly for the music. Maybe you could keep on doing the music and eliminate the sunday school? Because saying the same things over and over that you don't believe are going to do one of two things: reconvert you, or make you really hateful and bitter-at least given enough time.

 

Food for thought, indeed, Mandy. Thank you for commenting. My oldest will be a senior next year and my youngest is in eighth grade. Honestly, if it weren't for their happiness and that of my wife's, I would have already left. We have a happy family. Normal ups and downs, but my marriage is good and my kids are fantastic. Me not being a part of that part of their lives would create more problems than I am dealing with on a personal basis. I like the pastor and I have friends there. I believe, in the end, those I trust will wish me well. The financial compensation for the music is okay by me and it's a good gig. I could see myself doing that until my son leaves home. As for my wife, it's hard for her sometimes. My main problem is that I have no one to talk to about the things on my mind. I can share some of it with her, but hurting her or being disrespectful to her is something I can't do. I guess that's why I joined this forum! My time with the Sunday school class will be over when I finish the book. The book is something I can teach with no violation of morals at all. It's actually a cold slap in the face to the church and calls people on the carpet for years and years of crummy behavior. But when it's done, so am I. And it's funny that you mention bitterness... when I was a Christian I was full of it because I'd had a gut full of what I had seen and heard over the years. When I dropped the faith, it was easy to drop the bitterness. I certainly have my issues with the church, but it doesn't tear at my stomach anymore. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

 

If you find either the fellowship of the church or the money you receive to be sufficient incentive to attend, then that seems find to me. I have a hard time being in religious worship situations because I think it's such a waste of time, but nobody's ever offered to pay for it.

 

My only concern is that of your children. You write that your early experiences in church weren't especially great for you, but you're allowing your children to be in the same sort of situation you were in.

 

My personal opinion is that indoctrinating children in religion is wrong, and that they should be allowed to make an objective decision when they are capable of understanding what the decision is (say, mid-late teens). That obviously can't happen if they're in a family where they think everybody believes and they go to church (or at least the kind of churches I've gone to).

 

Though it is true that some kids are into church just because it lets them hang out with other kids, and have a nice trusting adults with them on outings so they don't get caught... well, doing the things that teenagers like to do.

 

As far as actually continuing to attend church, you've pretty well called it, Eric_PK. I don't have many close friends there, but the few I do have are truly my friends. The cash is great. And the family situation is workable. You did touch on two things that are very important to me. First is that both my kids do like to hang out with the other kids and participate in the activities. They go on great trips, have lots of fun, and it's safe and moderated. That's a plus for me and for them, too, I believe. Their experience in the church has been far different than mine in that they've always had lots of support, encouragement, and fun. I think the moral lessons have benefited them as well. But I stand guilty as accused of indoctrinating them and I do feel regret for that. My hope is that, one day, they will ultimately make a decision that works best for their lives. I can't take back these years and in many ways, I wouldn't. But when they are adults, I will speak freely with them. I feel I owe them that and like most every parent on the planet, I can say that I did what I thought was best at the time and mean it. Thank you for your remarks and insight, Eric_PK.

 

 

I am kind of curious as to what denomination church it is. Maybe a very liberal one? The music ministry wouldn't bother me but the Sunday School teaching-- to me would be the questionable aspect. I don't know. You say it is "Christian principles - helping people, loving others, forgiveness, repentence, charity, honesty - the normal stuff that if there was no religion or god on the planet, the average person would try to follow in order to be a human being of any worth." Probably none of us here on this site would have any problem with that, if, indeed that is all it is.

 

And finally, thank you, Deva, for your comments. It is a Baptist church, but to be honest, it's not that different from any other church I've attended. Middle of the road. Nothing extreme and tradition is valued. There are more young people than older people and in the past eight years (so I've been told), that has had a large impact on how "business" is conducted. I live in a military community, so there is a great influx of people year to year. I wouldn't call it a liberal church, but I'd say it is tolerant of the tastes and preferences it's members and tries to accommodate as best as it can. There are certainly many churches that I'd be miserable in. For the time being, I can participate and be patient with what I feel is a waste of time.

 

Thanks so much everyone!!! Just being able to speak freely is very liberating. I appreciate the forum more than you know.

[Kenny]

And you, RubySera... thank you. Thank you for the encouragement and the insight.

 

Judgment. I guess in a way, you're correct. Maybe more of a critique, but yes... a judgment is what I was really after.

 

The only way I know to improve on this would be to take them into your confidence and discuss with them how they would prefer the transition to be managed. One would have to be sensitive to providing age-appropriate information to the children--not to over-burden young minds with adult issues, but not to under-estimate their insight either.

 

Yes, yes, yes. I want to be honest with them. I want to be fully honest with my wife. I just don't think that now or the near future is a good time specifically because you nailed me. That honesty will have a huge impact and I do want to be sensitive to them. Right now, what you mentioned is my greatest concern. Your remarks are right on.

 

There is one thing I notice. You say you keep your opinions to yourself. Is that for the sake of peace or because you feel your opinions are inferior, i.e. "bad"?

 

I do keep my opinions to myself and for two main reasons. First, I know that my thoughts run counter to those of the church, my friends, and my family. Oil and water! I see no reason to create tension when there's absolutely no need to. I'm confident and happy with my thoughts, though I wish I could express them. Secondly, I don't want to live the double life to any greater extreme than I already am. Just like graphicsguy mentioned, I don't want to be seen as someone who's highly religious, so working to appear as such is definitely not part of the deal. I remain silent on theology and instead choose to discuss only the attributes of Christianity (as well as many other religions and basic moral character) that I agree with. Even when doing so, I refrain from the discussion of God or Jesus or Satan and focus on the things we, as humans, can do to make things better. Love your brother is universal and I believe that. So as far as my opinions, I make every attempt to be as... humanistic and secular as possible.

 

So, am I hypocritical? As all get-out! BUT, I had to learn at a very early age not to share all I knew or was thinking with others.

 

Thank you for saying it. I guess I knew, really. But I didn't know if it would be considered as reverse-hypocrisy or what! And when you mentioned it, I realized that even as an active, Bible believing Christian, rarely did I speak at any great length outside of the church or in an environment where what I was going to say wasn't welcomed or expected. So, in accordance to the Bible, I was a pretty lame Christian to begin with. I guess I don't care to repeat the mistake on the other side of the fence.

 

I feel the crux of the matter is intent. You say:

 

In a similar way to the musical contributions I make, I feel that I'm doing something worthwhile in exposing many of the things that make Christianity so unappealing to many people and at the same time, providing those who believe with knowledge and ways to fix some of these issues.

 

I have not read the book you are referring to but I support anyone who works against the abuses of religion. Many people here think the demise of religion is the way to go. I am not sure that is realistic. It might be some time down the road but not in the next several centuries. I think humans in general need to evolve more before that can happen. What does seem realistic is a gentler approach to oneself, one's fellow human, and one's religion. I think the place to start is the self and the human-divine relationship. My guess is the book you read, and by extension you, more or less targets the human-divine relationship.

 

I think intent is everything. Religion or no. So, yes... you are correct in assessing how I feel there. I see where you're coming from with the human-divine relationship, but the book, to me, seems to target a human-human relationship in order for the human-divine relationship to really mean anything. And as far as Christianity goes, it has always appeared to me that, on the surface, it was love God and love people. Well, I don't believe in the God of Christianity, so I'm out on that one. But I do believe in loving people. If I can help someone to see that more clearly and increase their knowledge in the fact that the church really isn't a very loving environment, then perhaps in my small community, I can help with the human-human relationships. Since they believe in the human-divine relationship, then perhaps both relationships will be happier for them and everyone they come into contact with... in some small way. I'm happy. I want them to be happy. There's enough tragedy and pain in the world. Even if, in my mind, they're wasting their time, perhaps they'll be a little more kind to one another. And that surely can't be a bad thing.

 

Thank you, RubySera. I look forward to reading everything you've posted.

[R. S. Martin]

Kenny, you may also be interested in L.B.'s posts. He is, or was (haven't heard lately) in a position very similar to your own. His thread Is This Abuse I am in a Situation with a Church tells a lot about him.

[bush country]

Kenny,

My opinion runs against the grain here. I do think what you are doing is wrong. Isn't it called "enabling"?

 

IMO it is ok to go to church and not be a christian and think the whole thing is ridiculous. I do it every Sunday for the sake of domestic peace. The problem is that you are identified as a christian, you are in a leadership position, and in that position you are leading others to follow christ. It may not be your intent, but that is what is happening. The bible, Paul I think, even addresses this when he says that people are preaching the gospel for the wrong reason - money - but that the message is bigger than the messenger and those that were saved through the preaching of these people are still saved. Ok, you are not preaching, but you are using music to manipulate people to be more receptive to those that do.

 

Even though you know your reasons for doing what you are doing to others it looks no different than if you were entirely behind the xian message. You sound like a pretty cool guy. There are probably some kids, maybe even your own, that look up to you and want to emulate you. That emulation would involve going to church, playing xian music, and in general spreading the xian meme. Giving their time, talent, and treasure to something you know to be false.

 

BTW - I used to sing in the choir and lead a small group bible study. There is no way I can do either anymore. If I did so, no matter my intent, by default I would be putting my approval on a message that is bullshit. To be sure I do not spread the meme I have started throwing away all my xian books, one or two a week. I thought about donating them to the church or the public library. Then I realized that someone might read one of them, get all on-fire-for-the-Lard, and further the xian message. So the books go straight in the trash.

 

If the money you get by playing this gig is the difference between eating and not, between a place to live and being in the street, then sure - keep it going until you find something else.

[Kenny]

I wouldn't say your opinion runs against the grain at all, bush country, and I sincerely appreciate your honesty. I need as many different viewpoints as I can get in order for me to be objective and determine what, if anything, I may need to do differently and how my actions and thoughts are going to affect me and those I care about. Again, I appreciate your honesty.

 

The problem is that you are identified as a christian, you are in a leadership position, and in that position you are leading others to follow christ. It may not be your intent, but that is what is happening. The bible, Paul I think, even addresses this when he says that people are preaching the gospel for the wrong reason - money - but that the message is bigger than the messenger and those that were saved through the preaching of these people are still saved. Ok, you are not preaching, but you are using music to manipulate people to be more receptive to those that do.

 

That's a hard row to hoe because it's true. I am identified as a Christian and I am in a leadership position. I hate that it is that way and short of total uproot, it's the only way I can be right now. I hate it. My only "rebuttal" would be to say that it doesn't bother or offend me that someone wants to be a Christian. I just hate it when they claim to be one and then treat other people like crap. I have no issues with their belief or faith... and if the music helps them do their thing, I'm cool with that. I've certainly facilitated and overseen many evenings of dancing, drinking, carousing, fighting and drug use during my years as a musician! And in both cases, there was a time when I participated and a time when outgrew it. I guess I'm saying that if they're happy, I'm happy. I could care less if they're in deep worship of something I don't believe in or if, like you and I, they're there for other reasons.

 

But what you say is true and no matter how hard I work or try to play it off, as long as I'm there, I'm seen as a believer and I do regret that. Playing a part in something that I don't believe in does create a moral rub. No way of getting around that. I'm not being dishonest with myself, but I am, in effect, being dishonest simply by walking through the front door. As I've hoped, this thread and forum have allowed me to be open with my thoughts and feelings and I welcome the honesty. I can take being uncomfortable as I gain wisdom. So, you have my thanks for shooting straight.

 

If the money you get by playing this gig is the difference between eating and not, between a place to live and being in the street, then sure - keep it going until you find something else.

 

The compensation for the music is generous, but it isn't my main income at all. It's "fun" money for me (so I don't have to use my own for my toys and such!) and it keeps the fuel tank of my gas guzzling Dodge Ram pickup on a constant state of "FULL". That alone is worth the time and effort! The financial arrangement is a bonus, but like you, I'm really attending to make sure the family is a happy and satisfied as it can be.

[Guest beanheel]

I'm really attending to make sure the family is a happy and satisfied as it can be.

 

Kenny, you're a part of your family too! I certainly believe that self-sacrifice is noble, but you have as much of a right to happiness as the rest of your family. Would you ever tell any member of your family to agree with the way you feel about something or you just couldn't be around them or love them anymore? If the answer is no, then you should be able to count on your family accepting you and your decision.

 

Beanheel

[bellsybop]

Kenny.. I feel you will find the answers to what you are looking for by being honest with yourself.

I have no real words of inspiration to offer other than that.

But, I wish I did.

The children are what concerns me the most though. I'd bet my bottom dollar that they are probably putting on the same face towards church, religion, and believing for the exact same reason you are. If truth be known, it is probably digging away at them to come free too.

Most Christians are in it under guilt of being persecuted if they don't believe.... be it by their God, or by the public's eye.

I want you to know that I am not judging your children by any means my friend... but I have 5 of my own that finally admitted that they never believed what was always taught to them about christianity. They admitted fear or guilt.

But you must do what is what you believe to be right by your children. I'm just a name on a forum. But this name genuinely cares about children.. whether they are mine or a complete stranger's.

I wish you the best in your quest. And welcome to the boards.

[florduh]

Kenny.. I feel you will find the answers to what you are looking for by being honest with yourself.

I have no real words of inspiration to offer other than that.

But, I wish I did.

The children are what concerns me the most though. I'd bet my bottom dollar that they are probably putting on the same face towards church, religion, and believing for the exact same reason you are. If truth be known, it is probably digging away at them to come free too.

Most Christians are in it under guilt of being persecuted if they don't believe.... be it by their God, or by the public's eye.

I want you to know that I am not judging your children by any means my friend... but I have 5 of my own that finally admitted that they never believed what was always taught to them about christianity. They admitted fear or guilt.

But you must do what is what you believe to be right by your children. I'm just a name on a forum. But this name genuinely cares about children.. whether they are mine or a complete stranger's.

I wish you the best in your quest. And welcome to the boards.

 

 

I must agree. The children are the most important part of this equation. Personally, I would want those who look to me for cues about how to live an honest and fulfilling life to see that presenting yourself to the world as something you're not, especially something you're against, is much different than an occasional little white lie to keep the peace with someone. As your children are your responsibility, you must do what you are convinced is best for them. That's just my take on it, no offense intended. Best of luck with everything!

 

- Chris

[R. S. Martin]

I must agree. The children are the most important part of this equation. Personally, I would want those who look to me for cues about how to live an honest and fulfilling life to see that presenting yourself to the world as something you're not, especially something you're against, is much different than an occasional little white lie to keep the peace with someone. As your children are your responsibility, you must do what you are convinced is best for them. That's just my take on it, no offense intended. Best of luck with everything!

 

- Chris

 

I have no children but this part about the children is what hit me, too, in the OP. It seemed as though the primary concern was that they are raised Christian. I read that part again (when I was reading it the first time) just to be sure I got it right, because it seemed a very unusual position for an exChristian parent to take. I decided perhaps you're taking that position out of respect for your wife. Based on the personal stories I've read on here, it seems good if children are raised with a solid sense of direction, so to speak, but they should also know that they have options. Many of us could have avoided significant damage if we had been allowed to explore options for time and eternity. But the only options available were heaven or hell.

 

I am not saying the only options placed before us because some of us searched as far as we could get away with under cover of darkness. But a night is only so long and parents demand to know one's where-abouts. Responsibilities await the next morning and we better be awake to meet them. If only I had someone in my world who knew how to live without god when I was 13. I don't think anyone had the slightest clue that I questioned god's existence. Why not? I feared severe punishment and ostacization if I so much as hinted at it. Even so, I was not accepted as okay. I asked too many questions, etc. I'm talking about serious stuff.

 

Why did I not address this issue earlier? Good question. 1. It wasn't on your agenda. 2. It didn't hit me hard enough before others raised it.

 

But there's something else that bothers me somewhat. You took my one answer differently from what I had meant. I meant that *I* was hypocritical by some standards. I don't want to make statements about another person. I think it depends on what standards we use as to whether or not it counts as hypocritical. As webmaster pointed out, the job of a musician is to make music, not be religious. If you are making music and not professing religion then you are not of necessity being hypocritical.

 

I sing religious songs as an atheist when I am alone in my apartment. Why? Because I like to sing and those are the songs I know. I don't think I'm lying any more than when I sing about Frosty the Snowman or Rudolph the Rednose Reindeer. I don't think those mythical figures exist or are doing the things I am singing about. Likewise, inside religion, we sing lots and lots of songs in the first person that are not true for oneself personally at this specific time, and possibly not ever. Some of them are generic prayers. Some of them are Jesus or God speaking to the Christian. Yet humans sing them without a scrupple. The trick is to put it into context within one's own mind.

 

The context I have used for the Jesus story and church, even the last while that I still identified as a Christian, was anthropology of religion. Humans have practiced religion since time immemorial. Christians are no exception though they think they are. Not even in thinking their own gods are more real than others are they an exception. That I was really a Christian at that point is debatable but I identified as such. I viewed the people doing stuff at church the same as I viewed videos on Aboriginal People doing ceremonies in the South Pacific Islands. It was all the same to me. It helped me make sense of things I was supposed to believe. In this way I was able to keep my sanity in the midst of chaos.

 

I don't remember how long this period lasted. Maybe it was six months, maybe a year or two. Eventually I encountered people who openly disbelieved in god. That allowed me to experiment with that. Again, I needed time. The best part of a year. I did not think I would ever deconvert. My mind was used to thinking in terms of God. I was okay with that. But the time came when I found myself quite comfortable not thinking that way. I think the message is to be gentle with yourself. Don't rush it. There's no deadline to meet. If you "die before you wake" you won't end up in hell because you failed to "repent" in time.