They Say I've Deserted Jesus

[ogilvy]

some christians on hearing that i've lost my faith, see it that i've deserted Jesus. but i dont see it that way. the way i see it is that God and Jesus are not what i believed them to be. i havent deserted God, because the God i believed in does not exist. i wish he did, because i was happy being a christian. i just had not thought through logically that the God i believed in, as portrayed in the Bible, is extremely cruel. i dont know why i hadnt put that thought into words all these years. i guess i made excuses like all the christians do now to me. i dont feel disloyal to God. i kind of feel like he's let me down. becos hes not what i thought. hes meant to be the kindest being imaginable. instead hes so cruel. is that my fault? if he was a kind God i would still be following him now, so its not i've deserted God at all. just the one that was a figment of my imagination. what a pity.

[SWIM]

In time some of them too will say you "hate god" and "love the devil". They just cannot cope with the idea that "anyone" could not believe. They think atheism is a "front" from satanism.

 

They just will NOT believe you don't *believe* they will think you simply switched sides.

[sojourner]

pippa I hear you. I dont blame you at all. I figure if the God that I believe in really does exist and is really good then Hes not gonna be all offended that I struggle and must reason with him and the bible even if I walked away from Him I figure if hes really good he would understand and find me and bring me back. If he doesnt what can I say except Ive been honest and not just lived in pretense.

 

I think just accepting the bible stories and all we are taught in christianity as a little child can be a blissful life in some ways. That ignorance can be a bliss. But, not everyone can stay there. Some people just grow up and their reasoning kicks in, things begin to not add up and before you know it you are wrestling with all those things. Its taken me 49 years to reach this place. Some days I feel I can rest a little and others I feel torn a part. The only version of christianity I can hang with is universalism. The rest can bite me, I dont want anything to do with it. But even with universalism there is a lot of unanswered questions and so here I am.

 

I just keep on keeping on

 

who knows

 

I sure dont, I still hope though and Im hoping that hope truly does not dissappoint

 

sojourner

[Kenny]

I certainly identify with what you're saying. I don't believe the Jesus story and I don't believe in the God of Christianity. Like you, they're not what I initially thought they were and stuff turned out to be so difficult to follow and believe and follow and believe. I think the first major disappointment was realizing that prayer was useless. In that respect, I don't feel like I turned my back on my faith, but rather realized I was investing in something that was bringing no return. In every other aspect of my life, that would be a no-brainer. Once I saw it, I was able to proceed.

 

You also said you wish you could believe and were happy as a Christian. There is a part of me that wishes I could believe, too. But there's a part of me that still wishes I could be a rock star, ya know? Or a fighter pilot. Or a motorcycle daredevil. But, in my heart, I know that the time to try to make those things a reality has passed and, though I still have my wonderful little daydreams and fantasies about headlining some huge rock festival with my band, twisting an turning in the atmosphere with an F-16 in a wicked dogfight with the enemy, or soaring over a long line of tractor trailers as the audience cheers my bravery... I know it'll never happen. (I still enjoy those little moments anyway!) But with Christianity, the happiness I did have, which was for a good five years, turned out to be an illusion. It wasn't a daydream. It was believing tale after tale and rationalizing situation after situation and clinging to a faith that was taking me deeper and deeper into places that were irrational and demanding that I smile and nod my head in agreement. For as euphoric as those five or so years were, I'm BY FAR happier now knowing that when I do something nice for someone, it's because I want to and I mean it instead of (stay with me here) doing it "as unto the Lord" and hoping that it would help to pull me out of the wretchedness that nailed Christ to the cross and that after I die, I'll still have to face a separate judgment for the nice things I should have done that God had set up for me to do and I missed out on because I was lazy or not dedicated enough. I'm just nice and kind because I like to be and it makes me feel good about myself. That makes me happy.

[hereticzero]

I've learned the NT is as big of a fabrication as the Book of Mormon. A person cannot desert or betray a fictional character or a real character based on fictional accounts. The story of Jesus is based upon the premise that the story of the OT concerning a talking snake is true. The idea that that story is true is impossible to believe. People want to discard the OT in favor of the NT because the NT is 'newer' than the OT and it has the teachings of Jesus that people want to believe. The cult is a vicious circle that is most difficult to be rid of when the teachings have been part of your life for so long. It gets into your head and you cannot get it out over night. You have not lost your faith, you have gained faith in yourself and what you are capable of accomplishing under your own merit. You don't need the cross as a crutch, you have power and purpose in yourself.

 

We are the divine. Our mental capacity is what makes life pleasant or unpleasant,not just for ourselves, but for everyone around us. What we do impacts the lives of others and what they do in life affects our lives--as a whole. The strongest of believers in themselves, become the strongest in life. They can handle any difficulty that comes their way because they do not wait for an angel to drop from the sky and save them. They take life into their own hands and become better people for it. We do not need a bible or religion to be moral people, helping those in need, or doing what is right to other people--The golden rule. What christianity does is remove the idea that we do things ourselves and make us dependent upon the idea that we need the help of some magical being in order to survive. Without this faith in that magical being, that magical being is going to fry us in hell for eternity and it is our fear of separation from family, friends, and this magical being that keeps us going to church week after week and year after year. It is this fear that gives the church power over us even when we are not in church. A person's family will keep them in check just so they do not leave christianity. It is that control of the cult that gets into your life that is the hardest to overcome. When I left the church, I can't recall how much e-mail I got telling me I was doomed to hell and I needed to go buy another up to date bible with a better explanation of scripture to learn. I had to change my ISP account just to get people off my back about returning to the church. None of it was hateful, just misguided. The actual hateful messages I used to get were from believers who chewed on me beacuse I did not believe every doctrine and detail of the church I belonged to. Once I broke free of the church, the hate mail stopped. i have never been sent hate mail by an atheist, always from a christian with too much time on their hands.

 

When we are in Christianity, our lives are controlled by the writings in a work of fiction, the OT and NT because we have been told that those writings are god inspired as if he wrote the books himself and to not believe in those books is an act against the Holy Ghost. If there were no bible, what would you believe? I know what I would believe, nothing. I was raised in a christian home most of my life and started breaking away, or so I thought, when I was 18 and left home. It took years of searching and study to understand how christianity came about and how the OT and NT were connected. Once I discovered, to my satisfaction, that the OT was fiction, then I had to discover how could I hold onto the NT teachings of christ if the OT was wrong? The answer I discovered was that I could not--a fictional account based on a fictional account, is still fiction! Once I reasoned with myself over these things, my mind cleared itself of any misgiving I had about leaving christianity. But it took me 30 some years of arguing with myself before I felt comfortable with leaving the cult. The violent history of christian church against native americans was the light at the end of the tunnel.

[godlessgrrl]

Hi there Pippa.

 

Something I've noted about most Xians is that when I tell them my motivations for leaving Xianity, they don't actually listen. They will instead come up with some reason that makes them feel comfortable, and then declare that it's the real reason why I left. And of course the reasons Xians come up with never have any connection whatsoever with reality. Just some asshat can't come to terms with what's going on in my head, so he has to come up with some excuse he can live with.

 

So I hear ya.

 

I think a lot of is has to do with fear. I mean when you spend your life believing that if you don't believe the right things you're going to burn in hell for all eternity, doubt is a frightening thing. It's scary to come face-to-face with someone who left the fold, especially if they're doing just fine in life. It's a lot safer to pity them and feel sorry for them and come up with all kinds of condescending crap about their blindness, than it is to stop for one moment and consider that maybe they're right, and maybe life can be great without god.

 

It's annoying though. Nobody knows my motivations for anything better than I do. It's arrogant to claim otherwise.

[R. S. Martin]

Nobody knows my motivations for anything better than I do. It's arrogant to claim otherwise.

 

Agreed!

 

From their own sacred text (KJV):

1 Cor. 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

So only the spirit of God can know what is in God. Paul then goes on to argue that spiritual people have the mind of Christ and therefore are qualified to judge all people. His followers take him quite literally here. But in chapter 13, verse 2 he says:

And though I have

the gift of

prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing (1 Cor. 13:2).

So it seems that even the spirit of knowledge must be tempered with love. Besides, Jesus said (Matt. 5:3-1):



Blessed

are

the

poor in spirit

: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

⁴

Blessed

are

they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

⁵

Blessed

are

the

meek

: for they shall inherit the earth.

⁶

Blessed

are

they which do

hunger and thirst after righteousness

: for they shall be filled.

⁷

Blessed

are

the

merciful

: for they shall obtain mercy.

⁸

Blessed

are

the

pure in heart

: for they shall see God.

⁹

Blessed

are

the

peacemakers

: for they shall be called the children of God.

¹⁰

Blessed

are

they which are

persecuted for righteousness’ sake

: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

¹¹

Blessed are ye, when

men

shall revile you, and persecute

you

, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely

^a

, for my sake.

#_ftn2

^a

falsely: Gr. lying

I think the bolded terms have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with being fully human. I will explain what they mean to me:

• "poor in spirit" and "meek": both mean opposite of being egotistical
  
• "hunger and thirst after righteousness" and "persecuted for righteousness' sake": for me, "righteousness"=truth. Thus, thirsting and hungering after righteousness means to hunger and thirst for knowing what is really true about such things as god and the afterlife and religion. Being persecuted for deconverting amounts (in my mind) to being "persecuted for righteousness' sake."
  
• merciful: kind
  
• pure in heart: sincere, genuine, authentic, being true to oneself.
  
• peacemakers: the opposite of stirring up strife for its own sake
  

The part that is relevant to this discussion is "poor in spirit" and "meek." If Christians want to follow their own sacred texts they cannot go far with their claims of knowing our motives. The arrogance of such claims won't allow it because 1. They are commanded to love. 2. They are commanded to humility. Further, Matt. 7:1 forbids them to judge lest they be judged. I have seen Christians dig up passages that command them to judge, but they must still deal with the loving and humility passages. Just now I noticed the one about being kind (merciful). If it doesn't feel kind to me, it probably isn't. I cannot judge their feeling of love and humility but I can judge whether or not it feels kind to me.

 

I'll never forget the bitter story told by a man who went through a divorce. He was a Christian but it seems at the time of the divorce he was part of a church that strongly disapproved divorce. He told the story in the context of an adult SS class in spirituality. It seems the church defended its position with something about grace. With bitterness dripping from every syllable, he shared with us his response: "I said if that is grace then I don't want grace."

 

I was shocked at the blasphemy and defiance, yet I could see straight to the heart of the matter and identify exactly with what he was saying. I KNEW WHAT HE MEANT; I'd gone through the exact same thing! Except in my case they used the word "love" instead of "grace." In either case, it felt so unkind and cruel that we were prepared to spend eternity without it if that is what love/grace really was.

[Ro-bear]

You should bake a Jesus cake. Then you can correct your antagonists by saying, "No, I desserted Jesus; there's a difference."

 

I can't believe no one bakes Jesus cakes. I bet they would sell like mad around Easter. Maybe marshmallow Jesuses would be cool, too.

[Neon Genesis]

Maybe the Jesus cakes have been over-shadowed by the popularity of Virgin Mary grilled cheese sandwiches?

[Grandpa Harley]

The Jesus Potato

 

and off topic... the metre of the title of the thread keeps sticking me with "When You Were Young" by The Killers...

[ShackledNoMore]

You should bake a Jesus cake. Then you can correct your antagonists by saying, "No, I desserted Jesus; there's a difference."

 

I can't believe no one bakes Jesus cakes. I bet they would sell like mad around Easter. Maybe marshmallow Jesuses would be cool, too.

Kind of brings new meaning to eating the body of christ...

[bellsybop]

May I suggest that you check into what deism has to offer? You might find this the god of what you believe in.

Read Thomas Paine's english version of The Age of Reason. I highly recommend this.

[Thurisaz]

some christians on hearing that i've lost my faith, see it that i've deserted Jesus. [...]

 

Screw them.

 

They aren't even really talking to you. What you describe are the typical worthless phrases by preprogrammed (read: brainwashed) cultist robots. They don't deserve that you bother about them or what they babble a single fucking second.

[MathGeek]

To copy Ro-bear, the only way you can dessert Jesus is if you pour chocolate sauce and sprinkles all over him.

[ExConfusedChristian]

I can identify with so much of what is being said here.

 

I'm recently deconverted, knowing all the crap the xians think now - we all know because we were taught to think it when we were 'saved'. Now living with my hubby of 13 years is at times bizarre. We no longer agree on God stuff and I guess it was a pretty large part of things at times. He has 14 years of bible study - I am just out of xianity and don't have 14 years of the other side of the debate study so our discussions go nowhere. I can sure see how he just spouts what he's been taught though. Although he will not admit this.

 

loved what Kenny and gwenmead said....

 

It's funny how this road is hard in some ways but so much better in others. We all know we can't pretend or go back though so, as Alanis Morisette said "The only way out is through".

[ogilvy]

pippa I hear you. I dont blame you at all. I figure if the God that I believe in really does exist and is really good then Hes not gonna be all offended that I struggle and must reason with him and the bible even if I walked away from Him I figure if hes really good he would understand and find me and bring me back. If he doesnt what can I say except Ive been honest and not just lived in pretense.

 

sojourner

this sounds confusing, but i also dont see how God could be offended by me thinking hes extremely cruel, because what he's inspired the bible writers to say in the OT especially, shows that he IS cruel, and doesnt seem to have any qualms about doing horrible and cruel things, like depriving people and animals of food and woater, deliberately. would God want me to approve of humans if they did that kind of thing? i dont t hink so. its because of my christian upbringing that i try to be kind to everyone. isnt it reasonable for me to be upset with God because he breaks his own rules? see how confusing this is getting??

[ogilvy]

May I suggest that you check into what deism has to offer? You might find this the god of what you believe in.

Read Thomas Paine's english version of The Age of Reason. I highly recommend this.

thanks i will look into it. what is deism, briefly?

[Grandpa Harley]

Hence the doctrine of 'God's sovereignty' basically God does what the hell he likes since, well, he's God, and doesn't have to answer to ANYONE of us vermin...

[ogilvy]

I can identify with so much of what is being said here.

 

I'm recently deconverted, knowing all the crap the xians think now - we all know because we were taught to think it when we were 'saved'. Now living with my hubby of 13 years is at times bizarre. We no longer agree on God stuff and I guess it was a pretty large part of things at times. He has 14 years of bible study - I am just out of xianity and don't have 14 years of the other side of the debate study so our discussions go nowhere. I can sure see how he just spouts what he's been taught though. Although he will not admit this.

 

loved what Kenny and gwenmead said....

 

It's funny how this road is hard in some ways but so much better in others. We all know we can't pretend or go back though so, as Alanis Morisette said "The only way out is through".

hi, i read your comments on your home page, and can definitely relate. i've stopped going to church the last 3 months. strangely enough, i still go to do church cleaning once a month, and when i see people they dont mention the fact that i no longer go to church. i did explain it all to one lady, so i guess shes explained to the others.

its certainly a very weird situation, no longer believing. now i'm one of the people who worried me before, when i believed totally. its so weird being the 'unsaved' one.

i like not going to church. the last few weeks i was at church, during the sermons i was drawing the people instead of taking sermon notes like i used to. i actually used to take notes for something to do to make the time go quicker.

your poem hits the mark. theres so much 'put on', in christian circles, in my opinion. i didnt like singing the words of hymns like being in raptures over God's love, when i wasnt. it puts you in a strange position, i think, having to sing words which you dont honestly mean. and i dont believe most of the others were rapturous either. so its silly, and i culdnt bear it any more. i got cynical when i thought, 'God didnt have to create us in the first place', so everything that came after that, the Fall, the sacrifices, Jesus sacrifices, the life of denial, which i used to reverence, now just made me inwardly curl my lip, so to speak. how can i dare say tht the whole system God set up, introducing evil and sin into his perfect good creation is just stupid and cruel? why doesnt everyone else notice? it took me 20 yrs to notice. boy i must be slow.

thankfully i dont have a christian (or any) husband any more, and my children are adults. but i still feel very uncomfortable about mentioning my cynicism to them because i know how shocking it wuld seem, and how it would worry especially one of them.

[Robbobrob]

When I read your subject title, it reminded me of somethign that happened to me a couple years ago.

 

I had been dating and being freinds with this woman off and on for a couple of years. At one time, we communicated by seeing each other every Monday for lunch, on the phone, via e-mail, and hanging out at each other's places.

 

Slowly, as she got more invloved with someone else, and especially once they moved in together, the e-mails stopped, the phone calls stopped, the visiting each other's houses stopped. At each stage, she had pulled away a little bit more. By the end all we had was Monday lunches.

 

When I got a new job that had me working Mondays, I had to stop our lunches.

 

From that point forward, I WAS BLAMED FOR DESERTING THE RELATIONSHIP. She pulled out everything else, but the one thing I stopped doing ended our freindship completely, and I was the ass for it.

 

I see a lot of parallels in my story with someone leaving the Faith. You find that the things that used to help you don't anymore, and God seems to drift further and further away, but the moment you finally say that you have had enough, it becomes YOUR FAULT ONLY that you left.

 

Sad tactics by sad people looking only to guilt you back into submission.

[R. S. Martin]

When I got a new job that had me working Mondays, I had to stop our lunches.

 

From that point forward, I WAS BLAMED FOR DESERTING THE RELATIONSHIP. She pulled out everything else, but the one thing I stopped doing ended our freindship completely, and I was the ass for it.

 

Great analogy. I've been thinking all along that it wasn't pippa who deserted Jesus; it was Jesus who deserted pippa--and all the rest of us. Or who never existed to start off with, however one looks at it.

 

For that woman to blame YOU for ending the relationship when you were literally unable to be present for the lunches is crazy. Must be she feels guilty for not getting around to sending you the occassional email to stay in contact. Surely THAT would be more realistic than physically getting together for lunch, given the life changes in both your lives.

 

That one is so easy to see through. The one about deserting an invisible friend whose existence cannot be proved or disproved, but whom all of us were indoctrinated to believe in, is more difficult in my mind. But if I am allowed to trust my own feelings and perceptions and logic then either Jesus deserted me or never existed in the first place. It's arrogant, false, and presumptuous for Christians to assume the knowledge that I deserted Jesus or don't want to believe, etc.

[ExConfusedChristian]

i didnt like singing the words of hymns like being in raptures over God's love, when i wasnt. it puts you in a strange position, i think, having to sing words which you dont honestly mean. and i dont believe most of the others were rapturous either. so its silly, and i culdnt bear it any more. i got cynical when i thought, 'God didnt have to create us in the first place', so everything that came after that, the Fall, the sacrifices, Jesus sacrifices, the life of denial, which i used to reverence, now just made me inwardly curl my lip, so to speak. how can i dare say tht the whole system God set up, introducing evil and sin into his perfect good creation is just stupid and cruel?

 

That got me too - how people could go from chatting up their neighbour to: the music starts, hands in the air, eyes closed, belting out the songs of praise and "yes Jesus, I love you!" all within 20 seconds. I'd be like - man, how do they do that? And I felt bad about myself because I could NOT do that. I didn't feel those things sincerely and certainly could not fake them...

 

About 'God didnt have to create us in the first place'. I would often think - if this is 'life' I don't want it. I never asked to be born spiritually 'dead' - I never asked to be born at all, let alone to feel like crap and to keep atoning for some 'sin' all because of Eve f*cking up. NOT FAIR!! NOT JUST!!