If I Should Die Before I Wake....

[R. S. Martin]

EDIT: Changed wording in title and OP from "old values" to "old ways of thinking."

 

Edited Jan. 25, 2008 7:40 EST pm RubySera

 

Here are a few ways of thinking that I see us carrying over from evangelistic pasts to our new deconverted lives:

 

1. Come to a decision NOW while there is yet time.

2. Spread the Good News to the unenlightened.

3. Don't be ashamed of The Cause; gird up your loins, be a brave soldier and come out of the closet!

 

It has occurred to me to ask what's the hurry? If we die before we find all the answers--"If I should die before I wake"--there's no hell to go to and no god or Great Judgment to face.

 

What other old ways of thinking can you think of that we carry with us into our new lives? And how do these help or hinder?

[godlessgrrl]

Y'know... that's really a good question, Ruby - the weird thing is, I'm trying to think of whether or not anything has carried over from my fundie days, and the truth is that I can't actually think of anything.

 

I mean I value friends, family, time well spent; I hold certain political positions and have a certain moral outlook on life. But most of what I value, I already valued when I was a fundie. And most of my fundie values were diametrically opposed to what I really think and value. It's almost like being a fundie was a temporary disruption, an intrusion or cover-up of the Real Me™.

 

Huh. Weird. I guess it never really occurred to me how truly foreign fundie thinking was for me, until reading your question about whether I took anything from it.

 

Hmm. Maybe I'll have to think about this some more...

[Kenny]

This is a good question because it highlights how "training" affects our actions.

 

I think the biggest thing I'm still carrying around are the quick little prayers. You know... like driving up on a terrible accident and saying things like, "Lord, be with them and watch over them." It's nothing but a habit - just like after I quit smoking and would still reach up to pat my pocket for a cigarette. I think prayer is as useless as the day is long. In fact, the concept of prayer and the lack of results it provides was the first indicator in my religious life that something was amiss. One day it's gonna stop, but in the mean time, I sure feel stupid catching myself saying things like that.

[par4dcourse]

Good one. I catch myself getting into a evangelical rant at times.

I've caught myself wanting to plead to "someone" when an important event or decision is about to occur, and I remind myself that the laws of odds and averages don't play favorites.

[ShackledNoMore]

Hmmmm, I guess I have a couple of comments, based on different aspects of the OP.

 

As for "If I should die before I wake" I think that both pre and post deconversion there is the reality that we will, at some point, die. Now I frame it in a mindset of "carpe diem," "live life to it's fullest," savor life since this is our time to exist and it's finite. Before, of course, it was "better be sure we are right with god" because we never know when we're going to die. I've never really thought of it as the same value.

 

I find that in one sense that I am a better "christian" than most christians in certain respects: in most of the ways the "nice" jesus would have us be. Not fully, mind you, I think I'm less gullible, more cynical and cautious than the "nice" jesus would have us be. I guess this may be a carry over from the meek, non-confrontational mindset fostered in me while I was xian. On the other hand, the arbitrary rules of xianity are completely absent in my current value system: if it's not mean and it doesn't hurt anybody I can't condemn all that stuff that offends xians. Moreover, I find using xian "values" as an excuse for prejudice, war, hate, discrimination, imposing your lifestyle on others, or holding back scientific or medical advances detestable. Having thought through the question of values very carefully during and after my deconversion, I have some values which happen to be the same as my xian values and others which do not, and except as noted above, I don't really see any other connection between past and present values or any significant lingering influence of my xian values.

[R. S. Martin]

On the other hand, the arbitrary rules of xianity are completely absent in my current value system: if it's not mean and it doesn't hurt anybody I can't condemn all that stuff that offends xians. Moreover, I find using xian "values" as an excuse for prejudice, war, hate, discrimination, imposing your lifestyle on others, or holding back scientific or medical advances detestable. Having thought through the question of values very carefully during and after my deconversion, I have some values which happen to be the same as my xian values and others which do not, and except as noted above, I don't really see any other connection between past and present values or any significant lingering influence of my xian values.

 

I think I used the wrong term in my title and OP. I now changed it to "old ways of thinking."

 

Also, I don't know if all of us carry old ways of thinking over from the old life. The things I mentioned are fairly generic stuff I've noticed on exC that I figure come from having been in evangelical churches. My church was not at all evangelical.

 

The biggest one local people have commented on regarding myself is my habit for networking. If I learn to know somebody, I try to remember something about that person such as where he/she lives and works, what the family situation is, and how to contact him/her. My mother spent a lot of time and energy teaching me to think of our community in those kinds of terms, also family histories. I assumed everybody thought of the world like that until people started commenting on how much I did it. Maybe I'm more into it than others because of how I was raised. I really don't know.

 

In a way, that is a value but it's also a way of thinking about, or looking at, the world. Whatever, we'll see if this works better.

[R. S. Martin]

Good one. I catch myself getting into a evangelical rant at times.

I've caught myself wanting to plead to "someone" when an important event or decision is about to occur, and I remind myself that the laws of odds and averages don't play favorites.

 

This, and Kenny's post, are examples of how integral prayer was to our way of thinking. It was such an integral part of my psyche that I did not try to deconvert until it had losened its grip. In fact, I had not been not consciously praying anymore for several years but it was still part of how I saw the universe. And very recently I found myself feeling seriously desperate about something and my mind just prayed without my permission. Talk about the complicated human psyche!

 

I don't know how the mind could be separate from the will but it was. Mind, feelings/emotions, and will all seem to be distinct from each other and all of them play important roles in the deconversion process.

 

No wonder it's so difficult to get rid of all the old ways of thinking.

[Rhia]

Ummm... I don't know if I have any of those - and mine might be more considered superstitions than anything else. I still knock on wood and throw salt over my right shoulder, but I don't really know why. I was yelled at for doing it as a Christian, and I did it pre and post-Christianity. In fact, my knock on wood thing is so ingrained (no pun intended) that I have a set of wooden beads hanging from my rear-view in my car. Not like they've ever saved me, but it's still something I carry even today.

 

My pagan bio-mom refuses to stir any food in a counter-clockwise motion, because she's convinced that stirring in such a way will add "negative energy" into a meal (I do NOT go that far).

 

I hope this is what you were looking for - 'cause aside from a few superstitions, I don't think that I really carry much that I can see from my Christian life.

[Sophronia]

Ummm... I don't know if I have any of those - and mine might be more considered superstitions than anything else. I still knock on wood and throw salt over my right shoulder, but I don't really know why. I was yelled at for doing it as a Christian, and I did it pre and post-Christianity. In fact, my knock on wood thing is so ingrained (no pun intended) that I have a set of wooden beads hanging from my rear-view in my car. Not like they've ever saved me, but it's still something I carry even today.

 

nah, those are just superstition, and probably contributed to your exit from Christianity. Don't you know it's DEMONIC to knock on wood!? By doing so you are invoking those ancient Pagan deities who lived in the trees, and those false gods are simply THE DEVIL in disguise!!! Yes, the DEVIL lives in all trees; this is why hippies and Pagans worship them so. And as for the salt-throwing, you should trust in the LAAAAAAWD, not in salt! Repent! Repent!

[R. S. Martin]

Ummm... I don't know if I have any of those - and mine might be more considered superstitions than anything else. I still knock on wood and throw salt over my right shoulder, but I don't really know why. I was yelled at for doing it as a Christian, and I did it pre and post-Christianity. In fact, my knock on wood thing is so ingrained (no pun intended) that I have a set of wooden beads hanging from my rear-view in my car. Not like they've ever saved me, but it's still something I carry even today.

 

My pagan bio-mom refuses to stir any food in a counter-clockwise motion, because she's convinced that stirring in such a way will add "negative energy" into a meal (I do NOT go that far).

 

I hope this is what you were looking for - 'cause aside from a few superstitions, I don't think that I really carry much that I can see from my Christian life.

 

Yes Rhia, this is great. Thanks!

[Amethyst]

I still see a lot of black and white, all-or-nothing thinking on these forums. I have been guilty of that in my personal life; it is a hard habit to break. I think when something like that was ingrained into you for so so long, it can be very very hard to stop doing it.

[Kenny]

I still see a lot of black and white, all-or-nothing thinking on these forums. I have been guilty of that in my personal life; it is a hard habit to break. I think when something like that was ingrained into you for so so long, it can be very very hard to stop doing it.

 

Interesting that "black and white, all-or-nothing thinking" has been mentioned! I'd say that if there is one significant victory I can claim since leaving Christianity is that I have learned the dangers of "black and white, all-or-nothing thinking". I thought that after I became a Christian, I was finished with and freed from "living for the devil". I traded my dirty mouth, my disgusting habits, my shameful lust, all of my heathen friends and the sinful places I went for clean speech, pure living, impressive self control, sanctified brothers and sisters and I was in church every time the doors were open. It took a while, but I learned that, while being an all out hedonist didn't work for me, neither did hovering six inches off the ground with a Bible in my hand. I went to the extreme on both sides of the scale and found great dissatisfaction on each end.

 

I call my life, today, living in the gray. When I live in the gray, I can see that:

 

all people are worthy of respect and should be allowed to have their dignity.

there's no need for me to waste my time with people who only want to use me and take advantage of me.

doing something kind for someone feels nice because the reward is that I feel good about doing it.

if I make a mistake, I don't have to hide it or mentally torture myself. It's okay.

there is no "line in the sand". I can agree to disagree with someone and not have them as an enemy.

a person's sex partner doesn't define their worth as a human being.

there's a possibility that a whole lot of really sick people can be made well again by sacrificing some embryos.

if I want to go fishing on a beautiful Sunday morning, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I earned my money and if I choose to give some of it to charity or to help someone in need, it's an opportunity, not an obligation.

not every single activity that I'm involved with or that I enjoy has to be "about something".

I'm not responsible for anyone's actions but my own.

 

and finally, because I'm happy in the way I do things doesn't mean I have to try to reach out and show you how you can be happy just like me!

 

 

I like the gray. I'm a pretty nice person in the gray. I feel good about who I am in the gray. That's good enough for me.

[R. S. Martin]

Kenny, I like your attitude. I don't think God--or St. Peter--can resist you when you arrive at the Pearly Gates. Just kidding. But that is my version of Pascal's Wager that I always fall back on, just in case. I think if we live fully happy lives being true to our Selves, we're living exactly like Jesus meant for us to live. Someone on here distinguished between the "nice" Jesus and "not nice" Jesus. I guess I always just look at the "nice" Jesus or explain away the not-nice guy Jesus. As I said, I figure being true to our selves is living the way the nice-guy Jesus meant for us to live and he simply won't be able to reject us in good conscience. Providing he exists.

 

So if I should die before I wake and there is a heaven I have no doubt I'll go there. No need to "pray the Lord my soul to take." In my mind, that just sullies the whole situation.