mentalhh Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Christians get all hung up on the motive of things. "It's what's in your heart..." What a crock. I remember when hurricane Katrina happened some church groups travelled to the area to hand out Bibles, and I was like, what the f- , these people need money to help rebuild their lives, not reading materials! (and a boring read at that!). What could possibly be in someone's heart who wastes thousands of dollars to travel somewhere and hand out bronze-age mythology to people who are in desperate need of things like food and a dry place to sleep in, other than scoring points with Jeebus for new conversions? Not only are Christians generally hypocrites, but many are just plain idiots!! Ugh. I know what you mean. I've gotten to the point where getting presents for everyone in my family other than the little kids isn't really encouraged, we sort of do a secret santa deal. All the same my Aunt (the uber religious one from my testimony) decided to donate money to charity in my name and my sister's.... we thought that was fine- it was the season of giving and all... ... But she didn't even ask us what charity. I really should have recommended one because it ended wiith her giving this token saying the donation had been to pay for 10 Bibles in somewhere in Asia... mmm wtf (Sister- the same, although not an ex-cn, she is at very least a backslider, and thinks people should do more than give out wads of text when they are in need of other things). We didn't say it out loud. But we could tell we were thinking the same thing. (I will not be surprised if in a year or so, my sis will end up here too) If she had to give to a cn charity why not ones which actually do good? (Christian Aid?) Hell, even my 'rents church helps fund a hospital in Malawi and shit. If she'd asked me- I'd have got her to give something to 'Practical Action' (one I give to) or 'Water Aid' or whatever. Not Bibles! There's better things to put money towards Still... I haven't come out as a ex-christian yet... MUST DO THIS BEFORE NEXT XMAS!! Or at least try and somehow 'push' her nose towards more suitable charities... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Still... I haven't come out as a ex-christian yet... MUST DO THIS BEFORE NEXT XMAS!! Or at least try and somehow 'push' her nose towards more suitable charities... Making a suggestion as to your preferred charity would make sense--if she wants to do something in your name. Informing the family about something as personal as your opinion about their personal fantasies might not be productive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Jesus, Mary and Joseph! But that's GOOD... I agree, there may be a little plagiarism involved in my response to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 MC, I've been thinking. Excellent as that note is from our perspective, I'm trying to think how it will be taken by a Christian who is seeing his first born rejecting his favourite fantasies. He might take it as the insult of the millenium. I'm thinking you might want to be prepared for ANYTHING. Maybe it will open his eyes and everything will be fine from here on out because that note is so decent. But I wouldn't guarantee it because when parents aren't thinking rationally....This seems to mean everything to him...But you are your own man and this is your life we're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Jesus, Mary and Joseph! But that's GOOD... I agree, there may be a little plagiarism involved in my response to him. MC, Hearing that something one has suggested might be useful is a nice feeling. Ruby is right however, to point out that we shouldn't assume that because something looks good from here, that is necessarily how it will be received. My 'response' was very much one that I would have sent to my Father if I had found myself in similar shoes to yours. Every family has its own meta messages going on and you'll have an insight into yours. I also followed the thread relating to the e-mail exchange with your sister and am pretty confident you would only incorporate anything I've suggested if you feel it would translate into the context of your own family. However, in thinking about how I would have responded to my own Father I also drew on my experience with my children, two of whom 'deconverted' before the rest of the family. At fourteen, my eldest son was already in possession of truckloads of wisdom and his attitude towards the rest of his family following his deconversion made life much easier for the rest of us. (There is a strange sort of irony to this, in that shortly before he deconverted my hubs and I were at a 'prophecy meeting' during which a prophecy was pronounced over us that 'God is going to teach you both important things through your children'.) My son remained respectful, listened to what I had to say, didn't dismiss everything, was open to correction and apologised whenever I expressed some kind of 'hurt' - whether or not this was justified on my part or intended on his ... but at the same time stuck to his guns and spoke up where he was in disagreement with me. In this kind of e-mail dialogue with family or close friends, this would be my advice ... 1. Prune it for length and for prickles. Write what you want to say, and then go back and prune it, prune it and prune it again. Halve it. Take out anything that sounds prickly, even when it's deserved. 2. Respond to reason with reason and emotion with emotion - but keep your emotions reasonable! 3. Say nice stuff as well, add in shared good memories, highlight the positives. Speaking as a parent, looking back on a time when everyone in the family was a professing christian except for my eldest son, and the next one was tettering ... I can't tell you how scary that was. I was such a doom merchant, I feared that my family life would be over! I felt that I had failed as a parent and grieved the loss of my 'standing' in my christian community. I was so prickly, so negatively emotional and so fearful. Throughout his teenage years, which came to correspond with my own deconversion, my son never once replied to one of my prickly comments with a barb of his own and he matched my negative emotions with positive ones (when I tell him this he says I have a Mother's rose tinted view the past so maybe he wasn't quite this perfect all the time - just most of the time and all of the time that made a difference to me anyway!) I think if he had matched my behaviour with similar of his own I may have become entrenched in my beliefs/fears. As it is, even if I had remainded a Christian, his life would have challenged many of my preconceptions about non christians. A final aside - my son took a gap year after leaving school, before going onto University. He went to South Africa with a secular charity organisation and worked as a volunteer in an orphanage. He taught guitar and got to share his love of music. This experience, of sharing something he genuinely and sincerely loves, with others, had a huge impact on him. On his free weekends he volunteered at a second children's home, his involvement here initially motivated by his interest in one of the other particularly pretty volunteers. This second project was for AIDS orphans and on average they buried another child every week. During this year he saw some of the best and some of the worst things humans are capable of. When a person is 'open' to finding truth and beauty in all that life has to teach them, they will live a beautiful and truthful life - (even if their initial motivation had something to do with an hour glass figure and a tendency to blush) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandatory Chaos Posted January 29, 2008 Author Share Posted January 29, 2008 Here's my dad's response. ****************************************** Nathan, I apologize if in any way I communicated disappoinment in you, that wasn't my intention. I only sought to show a comparision of your change in attitude, that is why I said "where is Nathan?" I have always respected your genuiness and courage and who you are. You will always be my son and caring for you and who you are won't change no matter what happens. Since you said you doubted God's existence, I have to admit I was kind of beside myself. I just wanted to reach you because, as you know, I'm convinced that with God is the best place to be and apart from Him is the most dangerous. But I realize now that I need to let you find your own way. If you ever feel like talking about the issues I'll be happy to discuss them with you but I won't force my opinions on you anymore. Going back and reading what I wrote, it didn't come out quite right and that's not what I wanted to communicate, I'm sorry. P.S. I just received one of the DVD's I ordered, do you mind if I send it to you? ****************************************** Your note was good Alice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 I must say it sounds like you have a good dad, if only mine were half as understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 MC, I'm so pleased the note helped and what a nice response. I apologize if in any way I communicated disappoinment in you, that wasn't my intention. I only sought to show a comparision of your change in attitude, that is why I said "where is Nathan?" I have always respected your genuiness and courage and who you are. You will always be my son and caring for you and who you are won't change no matter what happens. Since you said you doubted God's existence, I have to admit I was kind of beside myself. I just wanted to reach you because, as you know, I'm convinced that with God is the best place to be and apart from Him is the most dangerous. But I realize now that I need to let you find your own way. If you ever feel like talking about the issues I'll be happy to discuss them with you but I won't force my opinions on you anymore. His previous e-mail had sounded like a parent who was 'beside themselves' with worry and I remember that feeling all too well in relation to my sons. Although my Father died before my deconversion ... I have had some rocky conversations with my Mum and continue to have difficulties trying to communicate with my sister but for the most part we have reached an OK place as a family, where my deconversion is accepted if not welcomed nor fully understood and we are able to get on with the part where we are just family together. I can understand your Father feeling proud of your genuiness and courage - I think it shines through in just the little you have shared with us and I wish you well on your journey. (I'm guessing you'll do this anyway, or already have done it - but in your shoes I'd be following that e-mail up with one about how good it feels to be part of such a great family, how much you appreciate the fact that your Father listens and how much you value the care and concern he has for you.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizened Sage Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Your Dad says: "This is why Jesus said that you need to come as a little child. A little child is humble and ready to learn. A child doesn’t say “prove it to me†but rather trusts. " You might point out to him that the Muslims, Jews, and Hindus are saying much the same thing to their children and since the largest of the worlds religions only includes about 1/3 of the world's population, then this approach necessarily lands the majority of the world's people in a false religion. Simply put, this approach can be proven statistically to fail most of the time - at least two-thirds of the time. Tell him you need just one verifiable fact about this god; not an opinion, not an argument which may or may not be true, but one verifiable fact in the physical world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 And his dad never had to put up with me... Proof was a favourite thing of mine from learning to speak... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Here's my dad's response. ****************************************** Nathan, I apologize if in any way I communicated disappoinment in you, that wasn't my intention. I only sought to show a comparision of your change in attitude, that is why I said "where is Nathan?" I have always respected your genuiness and courage and who you are. You will always be my son and caring for you and who you are won't change no matter what happens. Since you said you doubted God's existence, I have to admit I was kind of beside myself. I just wanted to reach you because, as you know, I'm convinced that with God is the best place to be and apart from Him is the most dangerous. But I realize now that I need to let you find your own way. If you ever feel like talking about the issues I'll be happy to discuss them with you but I won't force my opinions on you anymore. Going back and reading what I wrote, it didn't come out quite right and that's not what I wanted to communicate, I'm sorry. P.S. I just received one of the DVD's I ordered, do you mind if I send it to you? ****************************************** Your note was good Alice. Fantastic! And the good thing about it is that no one is cutting of communication and hating someone. All too often, that's what seems to happen. Glad to see that your dad responded favorably and that, with a bit of maintenance and care, the two of you should be able to continue having a good relationship. Great news! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 BTW, Alice isn't being 'ungracious' in not responding here... she's off doing other things... she'll be back soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts