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Goodbye Jesus

Talpiot Tomb Update


Celsus

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Since then, a rather startling event has occurred on this subject. The Princeton conference on the Talpiot tomb has just concluded in Jerusalem, with some surprising revelations:

 

-- The widow of the original excavator, Dr. Gat, gave a speech accepting a posthumous award honoring her husband. And she revealed, to everyone's shock, that her husband

(who'd been silent on the matter) had always believed it was the tomb of Jesus -- but that he was terrified of speaking out because he expected anti-semitic attacks.

 

-- the statistician whose calculations supported the contention it was indeed the tomb of Jesus's family, Dr. Audrey Feuerverger (sp?), has had his paper peer-reviewed and accepted

by "Annals of Applied Statistics," to be published February.

 

-- a source within the Israeli Antiquities authority claims that when the tomb was first opened, there was an agreement to suppress the results for fear of an anti-Jewish backlash from the Vatican.

 

Time Magazine, the Jerusalem Post, and other publications have more below at links.

 

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=120107078858...

http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=811301

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/945672.html

http://www.jpost.com/

 

it is appalling the way both Christians and Israelis have completely closed their minds to what this tomb might mean. They are all terrified.

You'd think that mere curiosity would have them all anxious to investigate further.

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Since then, a rather startling event has occurred on this subject. The Princeton conference on the Talpiot tomb has just concluded in Jerusalem, with some surprising revelations .....

 

Hello Bruce:

 

Thank you so much for posting this. I read it just before going to bed last night and figured there would be pages of responses by the time I woke. I'm somewhat confused that no one has responded.

 

I am thrilled that Talpiot has received such validation. It will take years and years, but this discovery will ultimately lead to unleashing Christianity from the literalist chains that have held it captive since since men in power decided what was "orthodox" and what was "heretical".

 

Thank you again, I had been wondering what the scholarly community was doing with this information since last year's documentary. :grin:

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"

it is appalling the way both Christians and Israelis have completely closed their minds to what this tomb might mean. They are all terrified."

 

Of course they're scared... there's a HUGE amount of money riding on it being 'true'

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"

it is appalling the way both Christians and Israelis have completely closed their minds to what this tomb might mean. They are all terrified."

 

Of course they're scared... there's a HUGE amount of money riding on it being 'true'

 

Grandpa - I'm not so sure it's just money riding on the literalist version of Christianity being "true". I think it's power as well and good old human pride. But, mostly I think it's power. Keeping the literalist version alive means keeping the ability to control millions of people through religious beliefs. :shrug:

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Lets see... Kent Hovind is in jail for not parting with it, and Ted Haggard had a life style that made John Belushi look like a monk...

 

I'd say that if their God has a name, it's Mammon...

 

but I'm a cynic...

 

Of course, pride has something to do with it, and the Israeli view is political... if it was proved Jesus was dead and buried, a lot of the reason for the funding of the establishment and support of the state of Israel would drop off, leaving the country in postion of Custer at Little Big Horn... superior fire power only lasts while you have bullets... The Jesus Meme has power, money and politics resting on it... Nice to see the dream of Eusebeus realised...

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First they have to take DNA from Mary's tomb, Jesus' mother, and see if it is related to the DNA from Jesus' ostuary. If it matches then they may have a tomb to talk about or, it could be one of his siblings. There are ways to test for DNA if the containers held some kind of remains. I have strong doubts about this tomb. This tomb has not been validated as Jesus' tomb. I saw the documentary last year about the tomb and the archeologist tried to tie it in with the controversial ostuary that supposedly held James, the brother of Jesus, which others claim is a fraud. The inscriptions were written hundreds of years after the ostuary had been made. This ostuary is still being held by the legal system over lawsuits and bickering back and forth as to its validity. I am not that excited over the discovery. It seems more like one more shroud of Turin which has been proven scientifically to be a fraud but still accepted by christians who also do not believe in evolution and that our little planet is not the center of the universe. Controversy makes money for film makers and book writers.

 

If it is Jesus' tomb, it proves the resurrection did not happen and the story of the NT is false.

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If it is Jesus' tomb, it proves the resurrection did not happen and the story of the NT is false.

 

Xians will still never accept it even if it is true. They want their after-life so badly they will do or believe anything to get it.

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Lets see... Kent Hovind is in jail for not parting with it, and Ted Haggard had a life style that made John Belushi look like a monk...
Oh - I agree with you - completely. I just think power is a major part of the equation as well. Religion has been used to control people for all of humankind's history.

 

I think it's less so today, but still.... look at politics in the US. Bush is in the white house in huge part because of the way he panders to the religious right. And now Huckabee is using the same strategy. If you're not willing to share the wealth with those who have less than you, then one way to get their cooperation (or vote - or willingness to serve in a war that doesn't have anything to do with their own well-being) is to use religion.

 

Those who want to suppress Talpiot are as interested in hanging onto power as they are money.

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I think there are a number of reasons why Christians would want to suppress this. The first is obviously that it completely undermines the orthodox fairy tale that has been spun these last 2,000 years. A huge amount of people are financially dependent upon the propagation of the myth, from evangelists, to preachers to large universities. Perhaps as important, is that millions of Christians have a personal psychological investment in the claims of orthodoxy. I know when I left Christianity, it resulted in feelings of betrayal, of wasted efforts and emotional reorientation. Likewise, the discovery of the tomb of Jesus would also undermine Islamic claims, wherein they claim he was physically taken to heaven and will return, like Ezekiel. Jewish people obviously fear the potential Christian backlash. All three faiths, as represented by various businesses, make and have always made a huge profit from feeding the appetites of faithful by selling relics, tours, etc.

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OM is correct... and so am I...

 

It's money and power... the things that make Lady Justice smile knowingly and lift her skirts to all comers, while crushing the infant Truth beneath her heel....

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Anyone with a bigger brain for statistics care to look at this site and tell me if they've a leg to stand on? It seems plausible to me just giving it a quick once over.

 

More on point. From the Princeton Theological Seminary:

Symposium on Afterlife and Burial Practices in Second Temple Judaism

 

The third in a series of privately-funded symposia on Judaism and Christian Origin was recently held in Jerusalem (Jan 13–16, 2008). As with the earlier two events, this symposium was organized by Professor James H. Charlesworth, the George L. Collord Professor of New Testament Language and Literature at Princeton Theological Seminary. The conference was attended by some fifty international and Israeli scholars. The general subject of the symposium was “Jewish Views of the Afterlife and Burial Practices in Second Temple Judaism,†with specific attention also given to an evaluation of the so-called “tomb of Jesus†in Talpiot, in southeast Jerusalem. Lectures, presentations, and panel discussions focused on a wide range of topics, from views of the afterlife in Second Temple Biblical Literature, Jewish Apocryphal Works, and the Dead Sea Scrolls, to archeological assessments of tombs, ossuaries, and burial practices in the Second Temple Period, including an evaluation of the archeology of the Talpiot tomb itself by one of the tomb’s excavators, Shimon Gibson. Among the most interesting discussions were those dedicated to the topic of Mary Magdalene in early Christian tradition. Each of the panelists expressed extreme skepticism concerning the identification of “Mariamene†(allegedly inscribed on one of the Talpiot tomb’s ossuaries) with Mary Magdalene of the Christian tradition —the precise reading “Mariamene†is rightly disputed. Various specialists also spoke on diverse scientific methodologies, including forensic anthropology and paleo-DNA evidence (the validity of the evidence previously cited was rigorously challenged), and the statistical significance of the combination of personal names on the ossuaries retrieved from the Talpiot tomb. Indeed, a rich variety of methods were represented over the course of the three-day conference. Scholarly opinions were aired, and the atmosphere was academic and constructive. Most of the participants would share the opinion of Geza Vermes, the much-esteemed Professor Emeritus of Jewish Studies from Oxford University, that as a whole the conference was very “useful in airing the latest views on ancient Jewish burial practices and modern science.â€

 

The most spirited discussion arose around the topic of the Talpiot tomb itself. But even here there was broad consensus among the vast majority of scholars in attendance, as Professor Charlesworth, the chairperson and chief organizer of the symposium, pointedly observes: “Most archaeologists, epigraphers, and other scientists argued persuasively that there is no reason to conclude that the Talpiot Tomb was Jesus’ tomb.†Unfortunately, many of the initial reports in the press following the symposium gave almost the exact opposite impression, stating, instead, that the conference proceedings gave credence to the identification of the Talpiot tomb with a putative family tomb of Jesus of Nazareth. As is abundantly clear from the statements to the contrary that have been issued since the symposium by many of the participants, such representations are patently false and blatantly misrepresent the spirit and scholarly content of the deliberations.

 

We would clarify two additional points at this time. First, despite reports to the contrary, the “missing†tenth ossuary was cataloged. Its existence is recorded in Rachmani’s catalogue published in 1994 (Comm. 1). The Israeli Department of Antiquities retained nine ossuaries (Nos. 701–709) recovered from the Talpiot Tomb in 1980; in addition, a broken specimen, without decoration, was also found. It thus cannot be identified as the “James†ossuary. Second, it has now been ascertained that Joseph Gat died on June 14, 1993, well after Joseph Naveh had deciphered “Yeshua bar Yehosef†(“Jesus, Son of Josephâ€) on one ossuary.

 

Papers from the symposium are to be published in two volumes by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company (Grand Rapids, Michigan and Cambridge, U.K.).

 

The Steering Committee

 

J.H. Charlesworth (chair), D. Mendels, M. Aviam, G. Mazor, S. Gibson, D. Bahat

 

***

 

“I attended the Princeton symposium held in Jerusalem on “Jewish views of the afterlife and burial practices in Second Temple Judaism,†subtitled, “Evaluating the Talpiot tomb in context.†Many of the papers delivered on the main subject (afterlife and burials) were illuminating. In my judgment, the arguments advanced in favor of the Talpiot burial chamber being the family tomb of Jesus of Nazareth are not just unconvincing but insignificant. Discounting a handful, headed by James Tabor and Simcha Jacobovici, the maker of the documentary, The Lost Tomb of Jesus, most of the fifty or so participants shared this opinion. Among them figured leading archaeologists such as Amos Kloner (who published the results of the Talpiot excavations), Eric Meyers, Jodi Magness and Joe Zias. Scholars being scholars, they were bound to ask for further research. However, as things are, the matter is and, short of substantial new discoveries, must remain closed. The press’s claim that the experts were deeply divided is a distortion of the truth.â€

 

Geza Vermes

Fellow of the British Academy

Professor Emeritus of Jewish Studies

Oxford University

 

The Talpiot Tomb Controversy Revisited

 

 

A firestorm has broken out in Jerusalem following the conclusion of the “Third Princeton Theological Seminary Symposium on Jewish Views of the Afterlife and Burial Practices in Second Temple Judaism: Evaluating the Talpiot Tomb in Context.†Most negative assessments of archaeologists and other scientists and scholars who attended have been excluded from the final press reports. Instead the media have presented the views of Simcha Jacobovici, who produced the controversial film and book The Lost Tomb of Jesus with Hollywood director James Cameron, and who claims that his identification has been vindicated by the conference papers. Nothing further from the truth can be deduced from the discussion and presentations that took place on January 13–17, 2008.

 

A statistical analysis of the names engraved on the ossuaries leaves no doubt that the probability of the Talpiot tomb belonging to Jesus’ family is virtually nil if the Mariamene named on one of the ossuaries is not Mary Magdalene. Even the reading of the inscribed name as “Mariamene†was contested by epigraphers at the conference. Furthermore, Mary Magdalene is not referred to by the Greek name Mariamene in any literary sources before the late second-third century AD. An expert panel of scholars on the subject of Mary in the early church dismissed out of hand the suggestion that Mary Magdalene was married to Jesus, and no traditions refer to a son of Jesus named Judah (another individual named on an ossuary from the Talpiot tomb). Moreover, the DNA evidence from the tomb, which has been used to suggest that Jesus had a wife, was dismissed by the Hebrew University team that devised such procedures and has conducted such research all over the world. The ossuary inscribed with the name “Jesus son of Joseph†is paralleled by a find from another Jerusalem tomb, and at least one speaker said the reading of the name “Jesus†on the Talpiot tomb ossuary is uncertain. Testimony from archaeologists who were involved in the excavation of the Talpiot tomb leaves no doubt that the “missing†tenth ossuary was plain and uninscribed, eliminating any possibility that it is the so-called “James ossuary.â€

 

The identification of the Talpiot tomb as the tomb of Jesus’ family flies in the face of the canonical Gospel accounts, which are the earliest traditions describing Jesus’ death and burial. According to these accounts Jesus’ body was placed in the tomb of a prominent follower named Joseph of Arimathea. Since at least the early fourth century Christians have venerated the site of Jesus’ burial at the spot marked by the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. In contrast, not a single tradition, Christian or otherwise, preserves any reference to or recollection of a family tomb of Jesus anywhere in Jerusalem.

 

The smoking gun at the conference was the surprise appearance of Ruth Gat, the widow of the archaeologist who excavated the tomb in 1980 and has since passed away. Mrs. Gat announced that her husband had known about the identification all along but was afraid to tell anyone because of the possibility of an anti-Semitic reaction. However, Joseph Gat lacked the expertise to read the inscriptions. Jacobovici now says that Mrs. Gat’s statement has vindicated his claims about the tomb.

 

To conclude, we wish to protest the misrepresentation of the conference proceedings in the media, and make it clear that the majority of scholars in attendance—including all of the archaeologists and epigraphers who presented papers relating to the tomb—either reject the identification of the Talpiot tomb as belonging to Jesus’ family or find this claim highly speculative.

 

Sincerely,

 

Professor Mordechai Aviam, University of Rochester

 

Professor Ann Brock, Iliffe School of Theology, University of Denver

 

Professor F.W. Dobbs-Allsopp, Princeton Theological Seminary

 

Professor C.D. Elledge, Gustavus Adolphus College

 

Professor Shimon Gibson, University of North Carolina at Charlotte

 

Professor Rachel Hachlili, University of Haifa

 

Professor Amos Kloner, Bar-Ilan University

 

Professor Jodi Magness, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

 

Professor Lee McDonald, Arcadia Seminary

 

Professor Eric M. Meyers, Duke University

 

Professor Stephen Pfann, University of the Holy Land

 

Professor Jonathan Price, Tel Aviv University

 

Professor Christopher Rollston, Emmanuel School of Religion

 

Professor Choon-Leong Seow, Princeton Theological Seminary

 

Mr. Joe Zias, Science and Antiquity Group, Jerusalem

Clearly not everyone is in agreement as the media reports would have one think (among other issues such as the "missing" boxes and such).

 

mwc

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Anyone with a bigger brain for statistics care to look at this site and tell me if they've a leg to stand on? It seems plausible to me just giving it a quick once over.

 

<snip>

Clearly not everyone is in agreement as the media reports would have one think (among other issues such as the "missing" boxes and such).

 

mwc

 

You are right - if the majority of scholars in attendance do not find the claims of Tapiot valid - then the media did not give the whole story. Now why am I not surprised. :):wicked:

 

What's really sad here, is that the ability to share and publicize information is the best it's ever been - and still we have trouble getting all the facts. I've not even seen this conference publicized in mainstream media - that's really sad. :(

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There is the problem of the Thirty Year rule... Taipiot may be valid, but no one has a vested interest in believing other than people who don't YET have a career, and will take a less Tenure and previous paper view of the work. You get it a lot in Physics... as a simile... Einstein never got a Nobel Prize for Relativity... when he came up with it, no one wanted to admit it happened to be correct, despite some good maths... he got one for a paper on the photoelectric effect that has long been superseded...

 

For the uninitiated - The Thirty Year rule: The period of time it takes for a new finding to become accepted fact is approximately the time it takes for everyone who has tenure, or a published paper that relies on something that the new discovery discredits, to die.

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