Why Pick On One

[Guest Gunner]

It seems that the great weight of criticism falls on Christianity which richly deserves the condemnation of all who oppose religion, but what about all the other religions which we hammer less frequently: Take Islam for instance. In my opinion Islam is a far greater threat to our Western values (Whatever They Are) than Christianity:

 

Don't be fooled by all the Islamic bullshit rhetoric which they mouth off about Islam being a religion of peace: Islam is anything but a religion of peace and they are hell bent on installing Islam in the West:

 

Regardless what you may think of Christianity, wait until you get a good dose of the Quran and Islam pushed in your face and then you will understand what freedom means:

 

I condemn all religions no matter what or where they come from, but if we have to cherry pick the most evil, I would seriously recommend that you start putting Islam down as in yesterday before it puts you down:

Gunner

[Vigile]

Cherry pick? You do realize that most of us used to be xian do you not? I mean the purpose of the site is support for exers, thus the name.

 

How do you intend to put Islam down if I may ask?

[The-Captain]

Exactly, I really dont like when people talk about all this "preemptive war" stuff vs. religion and zealots. That would be a greater crime, by preemptively doing what we fear they will do. Yes, Islamic doctrine has some bad points but I cant say "putting it down" would be a good response.

 

Nor can we "win" against these religions by reason alone, as some will always have faith. I trust in rational muslims as I trust in rational xians, they will evventually break from their faith. Just b/c we feel threatened by people we cant jump to conclusions and start shooting/harrasing/persecuting.

 

IMO survival and success are not our only goals, being eliminated because we allowed ourselves to be optimistic and trusting is not defeat but true victory, to have lived and died according to high ideals. Just b/c we may be backed into a corner someday is no reason to indulge in the tactics of our potential enemies.

[Japedo]

 

 

Gunner, Who's cherry picking? This place is Ex-Christian not Ex-Dogma. Why not go here Apostates of Islam and become a member, you'll feel more at home.

[GraphicsGuy]

I would have to actually learn something about Islam before I started putting it down. Evangelical-Xianity I know inside-out and up-side-down so I feel I'm somewhat of an authority and know what I'm talking about...

[Ouroboros]

Gunner,

 

Why is every line ended with ":"? I haven't seen anyone do that before.

[Purple]

I agree with Vigile, and GG.

 

This is an Ex-Christian site, not an atheist site or an Ex-AllReligion site. This site is for those who have left, or are leaveing Christianity. Obviously I am going to be more angry and emotional about Christianity than Islam having been directly effected by it.

 

Now that said I do not have a rosy picture of Islam in my head, or think Muslims are more rational than Christians, but like GG said I am not really quilified to debate them or point out the errors in their religion or in the Quran. Also right now, where I am there is not a large enough Muslim population trying to make their religion law to really make a difference. I have read some that this may be different in other parts of the western world, but for now, in the US, Christianity is a more real or at least direct threat to my freedoms.

 

Although a study of Islam may be recommendable to understand the mind set better to argue it and such, I doubt I will ever know Islam as well as I do Christianity because I seriously doubt I wil ever convert and spend such a large part of my time in it, and even in ministry. Having been a Christian, having invested so much of my mind, emotions and time into it, I have an understanding of it I just will never have with another religion. Also, because of this I will never be a emotionally invested in Islam, I will never argue as passionatly against it because I was never invested in it.

[R. S. Martin]

Purple, I was going to highlight a certain "best" point of your post but it's all so good I don't know what to high light.

1. This is an exCHRISTIAN site for those who may have failed to notice for whatever reason.
   
2. Our investment in Christianity has been so great and so complete and all-encompassing.
   
3. At this point in history, Islam cannot compete as a threat in North America, though I understand the situation is different in the UK and parts of continental Europe.
   

[Guest Gunner]

Cherry pick? You do realize that most of us used to be xian do you not? I mean the purpose of the site is support for exers, thus the name.

 

How do you intend to put Islam down if I may ask?

 

When I made the remark about putting Islam down, I did not mean putting it down as you would an animal, or by force: I meant putting Islam down as "EVIL" as in seeing it as an evil religion with bad intentions: Puting Islam down before it puts you down was a play on words:

 

However, even though I am an ex ChristianI know Islam well and it pays to know your enemy because Islam is truly an enemy to the West, and I hope we never have to find that out the hard way:

Gunner

[Vigile]

Glad to hear you are not advocating preemptive war on Islam like the Prez has done.

 

IMO, Islam is at least as retarted a belief as xianity. I'm not sure I agree that it's the biggest threat to the US though. Xianity is a much bigger threat in that it supports the election of those like Bush who will strip the Constitution, ignore the Establishment Clause, advocate ignorance by supporting creationism being taught in schools, hinder science, etc... Islam just doesn't have the power in the US to be a real threat. In fact Islam is for the most part distrusted and hated in the US. It's tyranny of majority thought that is always the biggest threat. In Saudi that would come in the form of Islam. In the US that would come in the form of xianity.

 

Does Islam have at its disposal the ability to invade the US? No. They can inconvenience the US, but they can never offer a meaningful military threat on US territory.

 

I don't really buy the argument that xianity is less violent than is Islam either. They have suicide bombers that kill a few hundered here and there. Xians in the US by and large support ill-conceived military actions that kill hundereds of thousands. What's the difference if you kill 50 people in a cafe with a strap on bomb or if you sit on a ship and send a laser-guided missile into downtown Bagdad because the president convinced you that Iraq was responsible for 911 and is part of a wide Islamic threat to the American way of life? More people are killed with the laser guided missile but both actions are made possible by majority opinion that is guided by religious beliefs and fears.

 

Put another way, do you truly believe that the war in Iraq could have taken place without an xian president and without the popular support that the vast majority of xians in the US offered at the begining of the war? Could a strike against Iran be discussed in serious circles without the xian element? Could a bozo like the hillbilly gov from Arkansas even have a hope in hell of a chance of gaining the nomination without popular support from the xian right? If you extrapolate from that notion, then you could say that the xians have much more fire power at their disposal than Islam could ever hope to have. Which group then is the biggest threat to world stability?

[white_raven23]

Our rejection of christianity doesn't mean we endorse other forms of organized religion. Intolerance of one does not transmute into tolerance, or implied tolerance of others. Christianity is simply the organized religion the majority of us are familiar with.

 

If someone wants to create an anti-theism forum, more power to them. The only problem with that is it can be too broad based to hold people's attention. And, as has been pointed out, this forum's dedication is more of a recovery and introduction to non-religion. So people leaving the christian fold, will probably be more comfortable hanging out here for a while before "graduating" to an anti-theism forum.

[The-Captain]

Cherry pick? You do realize that most of us used to be xian do you not? I mean the purpose of the site is support for exers, thus the name.

 

How do you intend to put Islam down if I may ask?

 

When I made the remark about putting Islam down, I did not mean putting it down as you would an animal, or by force: I meant putting Islam down as "EVIL" as in seeing it as an evil religion with bad intentions: Puting Islam down before it puts you down was a play on words:

 

However, even though I am an ex ChristianI know Islam well and it pays to know your enemy because Islam is truly an enemy to the West, and I hope we never have to find that out the hard way:

Gunner

 

In that case I rescind my entire first post. Yes I recognize that Islam is a seriously messed up religion, comparable to xianity in the medieval ages.

[R. S. Martin]

In that case I rescind my entire first post. Yes I recognize that Islam is a seriously messed up religion, comparable to xianity in the medieval ages.

 

Interesting statement. It is about six hundred years younger than Christianity. Six hundred years ago were the medieval ages for Christianity. Do all religions go through similar stages of development? That's off-topic.

[Ouroboros]

In that case I rescind my entire first post. Yes I recognize that Islam is a seriously messed up religion, comparable to xianity in the medieval ages.

 

Interesting statement. It is about six hundred years younger than Christianity. Six hundred years ago were the medieval ages for Christianity. Do all religions go through similar stages of development? That's off-topic.

It's an important observation, and I've been thinking the same many times. It seems like many religions go through a violent period.

[The-Captain]

I think so, possibly like the stages of a virus. It seems that most religions, cultures and political systems go through cycles of fervor, energy, entropy and finally apathy. I would postulate that its a side effect of our species method of learning and culturual diffusion, even though history repeats itself some things at least are remembered and mistakes are less likely to happen.Inqusitions, holy wars, holocausts all these things seem to bear still on our collective psyche, and few wish to see them repeated .Im going on little with this hypothesis right now, except for a hunch based on a percieved historical pattern, but we all know how the mind likes to see connections even where there may be none.

[Ouroboros]

I wonder... since we many times have talked about how religion is a meme virus, maybe virology (anyone good at that stuff?) could be applied to religious evolution? Maybe it's like an huge outbreak, and because the virus kills too many hosts it kind of kills its own foundation and the only surviving strands of mutated virus stays because it somehow gets into an equilibrium with its environment?

[♦ nivek ♦]

Gunner,

 

How much time have you done in any of the 'Stans with the Kiwi peacekeepers?

 

Done any contractor(ed) work on the Horn? Bent any pipe on coasts or inland? Mixed any wet and set forms for the big outfits?

 

Milled around in North along the Med?

 

Kinda interested, not many folks from your home that are so warlike in their assessment of the Izlamiks.

 

I've been there playing games, getting paid quite well for both long and short term projects. May have run in some of the same places. If you are a contractee we may have worked for same outfits.

 

kFL

[Vigile]

In that case I rescind my entire first post. Yes I recognize that Islam is a seriously messed up religion, comparable to xianity in the medieval ages.

 

Interesting statement. It is about six hundred years younger than Christianity. Six hundred years ago were the medieval ages for Christianity. Do all religions go through similar stages of development? That's off-topic.

It's an important observation, and I've been thinking the same many times. It seems like many religions go through a violent period.

 

You guys are forgetting to factor in something important when making this observation. The majority of Islamic nations were either cololianized and/or they are oil producing nations and as such have been used as pawns in the hands of the Christianized west. These nations are for the most part underdeveloped, are controled by dictators, military governments, and have endured many decades of violence. Much at the hands of Christian nations. Saying that Islam is more violent means you are measuring it with a different yardstick than you measure the Colonialists and the neo Colonialists.

 

Who knows what Islam would look like if it had a chance to exist in peace for a couple or three centuries?

[Grandpa Harley]

Islam was once a pretty liberal and cultured society (compared to the contemporary Christians) Most of the classical Greek texts we have are thanks to Islam.

[The-Captain]

You guys are forgetting to factor in something important when making this observation. The majority of Islamic nations were either cololianized and/or they are oil producing nations and as such have been used as pawns in the hands of the Christianized west. These nations are for the most part underdeveloped, are controled by dictators, military governments, and have endured many decades of violence. Much at the hands of Christian nations. Saying that Islam is more violent means you are measuring it with a different yardstick than you measure the Colonialists and the neo Colonialists.

 

Who knows what Islam would look like if it had a chance to exist in peace for a couple or three centuries?

 

Good point, I wonder about that as well since there was a time Islam was progressive and liberal compared to xianity. But aside from their obvious distaste for the west (some of them anyway) the Islamic peoples are rather repressive of their own people, and Islam is the prime rationale for this in many cases.

[Vigile]

When secular culture is weakened through poverty and oppressive governments religion can become more pervasive I think. The same could happen in the US with xianity if there were a breakdown in civil order and a massive shift in the economy. It's because societal stability helps hinder tyrrany of the majority. Take away civility and watch the majority oppress the minorities as they demand some form of religious law.

 

In other words, oppressive religion is just the fallout, not necessarily the cause.

[Grandpa Harley]

Like any Abrahamic religion, the raison d'etre of Islam is crowd control.

[Antlerman]

It seems that the great weight of criticism falls on Christianity which richly deserves the condemnation of all who oppose religion, but what about all the other religions which we hammer less frequently: Take Islam for instance. In my opinion Islam is a far greater threat to our Western values (Whatever They Are) than Christianity:

Of course a foreign culture is more a threat to "our Western values" than Christianity. Our Western values come from Christianity.

 

Thing I don't like about your rhetoric is that it's the same mentality that has been heard throughout the ages, and in fact is the same language as the far Christian Right in their waging war on culture to protect those traditions that they've singled out as the best. Here's a few examples to chew on:

 

"Those Gypsies threaten the stability of our rich German culture."

"Those Jews are a poison to our way of life."

"The damned Irish threaten to take all our jobs away"

"Those gays are destroying the definition of marriage and our American way of life"

 

Etc, etc, etc

 

 

This is not an anti-name-group-you-fear-here site.

[hereticzero]

How does one 'cherry pick the most evil' of anything?

 

Why don't you go take a look for yourself who the first suicide bombers in the mid east were! It wasn't Palestinians or Islamic terrorists!

 

We all have seen the news stories and horror of the mid east. Why is it that way? Christianity. Christianity cannot keep its neoconservative fascist little nose out of our bedrooms, let alone the mid east. It is not wanted in the mid east and yet our government insists on imposing the American way in the mid east--this does not just include Democracy but the acceptance of Christianity as well. Jerusalem doesn't even allow Jewish Christians to immigrate there! So, just where do you feel imposed upon in the mid east while living over here?

 

Our country, the good ol' US of A, has poked its nose into other nation's politics, influenced their elections, hunted down and killed dictators under false pretenses, and imposes sanctions, by means of the UN, on any nation that accepts our foreign aid but will not impose our laws on their people, ie, the US drug war--US demands other countries prohibit marijuana and we demand South America get rid of its coca crops (no, that's not hot chocolate.

 

In our country, the good ol' US of A, our government will kick your door in at two in the morning and shoot you to death over marijuana possession. The cops get the wrong address, kick a door in and when the homeowner comes up fighting they get shot to death by the police that are sworn to protect us from the bad guys. In the eyes of the government, a marijuana user is so dangerous they come to your house and will kill you if you resist--even if they have the wrong address, put up a fight, they will kill you. Our government is so stupid, they believe their own propaganda. Our government is fascist in its laws and goes to absurd extremes to create laws that put us at more risk by enforcing the law than from ignoring the substance abusers. Fascism has taken over our country while we slept and most of the people who live in this country are still snoring away because the govt. sings them the songs they want to hear while imposing strict choking laws that violate human rights. Am I over stating things? I doubt it, considering their are states that are trying to pass legislation to remove your children from your home if you smoke cigarettes in your home and the kids are exposed to second hand smoke. In the state where I live they enforce a law that will get you a ticket if you are seen smoking in your car and you have a child in the car with you. Any reason to get inside your home and interfere with your family. Any reason for a cop to pull you over and search your vehilce. Anything you do, will get you fined or jailed, or killed in America. Cops always show up at the door with guns even to tell you your dog is loose. The govt. always visits with an implied threat of violence if you do not cooperate with them.

 

Why don't you send e-mail or call your Senator to change laws in America first? Our country spends its time demonising the rest of the world so that we have a common enemy, when it should be more concerned with how the people that have to live here actually feel about their own government.

[Grandpa Harley]

GODWIN!