Grandpa Harley Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 I have relatives that claim miraculous healing AFTER they have surgery or chemo ... If they are not completely cured they claim victory that God gave them a partial healing ... I don't cater to a cheap ass god that's too tired to give a complete cure. Then you get a pat answer like, 'god doesn't give us more than we can bear.' Which is why the suicide rate is so high in the USA. I heard this wone alot when my baby died. "God did answer your prayers for healing, he just chose to heal her in heaven." What kind of shitty cop out is that? If I had neglected to pray for her healing, would she have been deformed and fatally ill in heaven? Doesn't that go against their fantasy of heaven? As for "more than we can bear" rhetoric. I always hated that cliche. I wished that someone would please describe what "not bearing" would like. I find a sharp punch between the eyes, delivered from the shoulder and aimed to stop at the pineal gland nips that sort of crap in the bud... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelloChick Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 And on top of that, there was intense pressure to be "purified" by this experience. "Tested" and "Made Holy" while other people watched for their edification. I definately did not go through as horrific and long lasting an experience as you have. But I completely understand this sentiment having lived under the watchful eyes of the edification hungry for a time. Madam M, It sucked, didn't it? We had real trouble and grief. Faith left us with more questions than answers. And then we were expected to raise a tambourine and dance for joy over God's test. What a no win situation! If we dance when our hearts are breaking, we lie to ourselves. If we mourn, we're asked, "Why aren't you dancing! Don't you know God has a special plan for your life?" Unfair. Too unfair. I'm thinking about writing a book about my struggles with faith. Already wrote a book about lessons I've learned from illness. It's available at Amazon.com Life Music by Marie Smith, in case you're interested. I'm seriously considering a follow up. Because I get asked "Spiritual" questions all the time. Working title: Answers That Need Questioning CelloChick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redadare Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Elizabeth Schaa’s Miracle I met a family at a local Christian School Parents evening. They had a young daughter the same age as our eldest and we went to the same church. The father had a real compassion for people and had an excellent knowledge of the Bible. The family then moved to a country town where he continued helping others. After a couple of years he felt compelled to start a church in Tasmania. The church decided to grant him a Priest’s licence which is most unusual as study in a recognised college is almost always a prerequisite but his knowledge and more importantly, his conduct in life was exemplary. He had to get to Melbourne first so he bought an old delivery truck into which he packed everything. He also had a car but a problem arose. His wife did not drive, so I took off time and drove it. Second night we ended up in Ballaraat and stayed at the Airport Motel on the Sunraysia Highway in adjoining Rooms 15 and I think the other was 16. Having put my case on my bed, I went into the next room where I saw the father standing a couple of feet from the end of the bed facing the bedhead. On his back was his daughter and they were having fun and games. He ducked down to one side to her great amusement and then ducked down the other side (while standing in the same place). Suddenly he ducked very quickly frontwards and she flew off his back in the direction of the bed. Her body came down vertically, head first onto the bed, so quickly she didn’t have time to put out her arms for support, then the weight of her body acted and caused her head to bend BACKWARDS. THE HEAD CAME CLOSE TO TOUCHING HER SPINE. Well, it still sends shivers thinking about it although it happened 17 long years ago. I knew a disaster of momentous proportions had happened. She ended up lying flat on her back on the bed. She couldn’t move. She was totally paralysed. I raced into my room to fervently pray. How long I was there, who knows. Maybe a couple of minutes. Coming back into the room I see the daughter standing, perfectly well. WHAT A SURPRISE. I asked her what had happened and what were her thoughts. She said that she totally believed that her God was capable of all things and with that, she got this warm comforting feeling in her neck and FELT THE BONES MOVE BACK INTO PLACE. I believe this miracle was due to the faith of that 12 year old child coupled with the prayers and faith of her parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Gibberish. Who is Elizabeth Schaa and why is there no record of a 'miracle' found by Ask, Google, Yahoo, AltaVista, or even Dogpile? and what sort of froob doesn't ring for paramedics then pray? 'Trust in god, but always tether your camel...' I call 'Bull hockey' on this one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redadare Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Gibberish. Who is Elizabeth Schaa and why is there no record of a 'miracle' found by Ask, Google, Yahoo, AltaVista, or even Dogpile? and what sort of froob doesn't ring for paramedics then pray? 'Trust in god, but always tether your camel...' I call 'Bull hockey' on this one... "Who is Elizabeth Schaa"? I told you who she was. Why is there no record on the Web? Because this is the first time I have ever posted it. I think they had it around the right way - pray first. If no immediate results then get help. 'Bull hockey"? I have told a true story of an incident that happened before my eyes. If you don't wish to believe that, it's a free world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 so, there is no medical verification of this at all, just some anonymous man who appears to have minimal or no medical training telling us of a medical miracle... thus it's an unverified and unverifiable anecdote of a possible spinal displacement or dislocation. Since there is NO medical support from what you're telling us, applying William of Ockam's logic there are the very likely things are 1) You were mistaken in the severity, and the problem went away all by itself 2) You are mis remembering, then see one 3) You're embellishing, because you want to see a miracle 4) You're out and out lying for Jesus Godfixedit is a pretty low chance... but then the bible god is a REAL hardcore capricious and nasty bastard, who pull miracles only when there's noone there qualified to say it was anything... If the girl had died, due to no medical intervention, you'd have claimed it was the will of God and who are we to question God's sovereignty, when actually it would have been a child neglect case... So, tell me the reason God didn't help this guy? I assume his faith wasn't strong enough... or perhaps God hated him, or wanted a object lesson of why we should engage in War Without End against an invisible, evil, foe who may or may not be Islamic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I think the story is either PFA (plucked from air), hear-say, or exageration. There have been far too many VALID studies on prayer proving that it does not work, and on the rare occasion it "seems" to work, is just the placebo effect. Great... Another fundy, this one is catholic too it seems, talking about "the father". Speaking of which, having raised two girls, the "father" is to blame for the whole thing in the first place, that was far too wreckless of him. BTW the REAL miracle would have been gawd striking him dead for being a moron, while at the same time healing the girl. Hey, striking him dead would only mean that he would be in the presence of gawd then right? Then gawd could tell him what an asshat he was... Nope, nothing to see here, move along... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Now then swim, you hit one of MY trigger phrases... just the placebo effect... it's an effect so powerful that if the patient, or the treatment staff, or both, don't believe the real drug will work, despite the fact it does, you get a statistically significant number of failures of the drug among the population of correctly diagnosed patients... The source was, I believe, a Wellcome meta-study of studies to determine why in double blind tests of a drug that worked failed in a statisically significant population to see if they could manipulate the tests to eliminate or ignore the failures (successes on the placebo 'drug' are already discounted as 'beyond the scope of the test') They found 1) staff giving the drug didn't beleive it would work 2) staff didn't like the patient 3) the patient didn't beleive it would work 4) the patient didn't like the caring staff, environment, hospita or something similar 5) the patient had a lot of their 'identity' place in the fact they were 'XYZ' sufferers... something the original post ignores is the essential resilience of the 12 year old (I did numerous dumb things that, if I did them today, would at best kill me outright, or at worse crippled or in a coma) A rotational displacement could have popped back into place... but the girl still needed medical attention... which doesn't seem to have been forthcoming at all... in fact the fact they wasted time in a spinal injury that could have been some magnitude and would have resulted in killing or crippling the girl is child abuse... at least in my book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Now then swim, you hit one of MY trigger phrases... just the placebo effect... it's an effect so powerful that if the patient, or the treatment staff, or both, don't believe the real drug will work, despite the fact it does, you get a statistically significant number of failures of the drug among the population of correctly diagnosed patients... Ah yes, sorry to under-size the magnitude of the effect. Without going into home-life details, I know someone personally that the placebo effect works quite remarkably on, I have seen it. Totally amazing! The source was, I believe, a Wellcome meta-study of studies to determine why in double blind tests of a drug that worked failed in a statisically significant population to see if they could manipulate the tests to eliminate or ignore the failures (successes on the placebo 'drug' are already discounted as 'beyond the scope of the test') They found 1) staff giving the drug didn't beleive it would work 2) staff didn't like the patient 3) the patient didn't beleive it would work 4) the patient didn't like the caring staff, environment, hospita or something similar 5) the patient had a lot of their 'identity' place in the fact they were 'XYZ' sufferers... something the original post ignores is the essential resilience of the 12 year old (I did numerous dumb things that, if I did them today, would at best kill me outright, or at worse crippled or in a coma) A rotational displacement could have popped back into place... but the girl still needed medical attention... which doesn't seem to have been forthcoming at all... in fact the fact they wasted time in a spinal injury that could have been some magnitude and would have resulted in killing or crippling the girl is child abuse... at least in my book Oh yes! I fell from a tree at around that age, from way up high, hit damn near every branch on the way down too, and just got up and walked away... Hmmm... Wonder who "prayed" for me, seeing as I was alone when I did it? hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tund1979 Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 I am a christian who is beginning to question my faith. I share this story with you because I would love to hear a rational, non-christian perspective... Last sunday at church, an elderly woman stood up and told us about her healing: She was watching Todd Bentley's Florida Revival on God TV. She was a bit skeptical, wondering whether or not it was 'from God'. So she prayed and asked God to give her a sign so that she would know if His blessing was apon this revival and on Todd Bentley's ministry. Soon after she prayed she noticed the TV was too loud, so she turned it down. But then suddenly she realised it was not the TV, but that in fact her hearing had been vastly improved. She is notorious at our church for constantly asking people to speak up, as her hearing is quite poor. But last sunday she told us she could hear everything that was going on. Her hearing had been 'healed!' This woman is not a "whacky christian." She is quite level-headed and I have a lot of repect for her. She claims she can hear better, what am I to make of this?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JernJane Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 www.whywontgodhealamputees.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 Elizabeth Schaa’s Miracle I met a family at a local Christian School Parents evening. They had a young daughter the same age as our eldest and we went to the same church. The father had a real compassion for people and had an excellent knowledge of the Bible. The family then moved to a country town where he continued helping others. After a couple of years he felt compelled to start a church in Tasmania. The church decided to grant him a Priest’s licence which is most unusual as study in a recognised college is almost always a prerequisite but his knowledge and more importantly, his conduct in life was exemplary. He had to get to Melbourne first so he bought an old delivery truck into which he packed everything. He also had a car but a problem arose. His wife did not drive, so I took off time and drove it. Second night we ended up in Ballaraat and stayed at the Airport Motel on the Sunraysia Highway in adjoining Rooms 15 and I think the other was 16. Having put my case on my bed, I went into the next room where I saw the father standing a couple of feet from the end of the bed facing the bedhead. On his back was his daughter and they were having fun and games. He ducked down to one side to her great amusement and then ducked down the other side (while standing in the same place). Suddenly he ducked very quickly frontwards and she flew off his back in the direction of the bed. Her body came down vertically, head first onto the bed, so quickly she didn’t have time to put out her arms for support, then the weight of her body acted and caused her head to bend BACKWARDS. THE HEAD CAME CLOSE TO TOUCHING HER SPINE. Well, it still sends shivers thinking about it although it happened 17 long years ago. I knew a disaster of momentous proportions had happened. She ended up lying flat on her back on the bed. She couldn’t move. She was totally paralysed. I raced into my room to fervently pray. How long I was there, who knows. Maybe a couple of minutes. Coming back into the room I see the daughter standing, perfectly well. WHAT A SURPRISE. I asked her what had happened and what were her thoughts. She said that she totally believed that her God was capable of all things and with that, she got this warm comforting feeling in her neck and FELT THE BONES MOVE BACK INTO PLACE. I believe this miracle was due to the faith of that 12 year old child coupled with the prayers and faith of her parents. Even if this is not a total crock of shit, ever heard of cord shock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Nope. Never witnessed a miracle. Best I got was healed from a cold, which I now put down to mind over matter. All my life (40 years) I have heard great stories of miracles happening, but never see any evidence. I've never met anyone who has had a miraculous healing. It's always stories, heresay, often by the pastor standing at the front of church talking about something that happened in deepest darkest Africa or some other place. I also used to hear amazing stories of healings and demoniac deliverences happening at healing meetings. I heard stories about demon-possessed people sliding up walls at one particular guy's meetings. However attending his meetings I never saw anything remotely supernatural. No amazing healings or demoniac activity. The guy even said itself, don't expect to see people sliding up walls and other things like that, because those things never happened. It seems to me that Christians like to exagerate and lie about things like this. I guess they feel a duty when it comes to trying to prove God and also to try and make it look as though their religion is for real. People proclaim the word "miracle" for all kinds of ridiculous shit that always falls within the realm of the possible. The remainder of the "miraculous" claims are either the product of ecstatic hallucinations, obvious exaggerations intended to bolster the faith, or intentional charlatanism. Exactly! I think Christians have watered down the meaning of the word "miracle". It's become more like something impressive now. Not something extra-ordinary. A miracle is nothing all that great anymore. It's like the phrase "Giving 100%". Giving 100% is no longer giving your best now. Giving your best is now 110%. This shows that if you gave a 100% you were never trying your best. I think the same thing here has happened to the word "miracle". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Elizabeth Schaa’s Miracle I met a family at a local Christian School Parents evening. They had a young daughter the same age as our eldest and we went to the same church. The father had a real compassion for people and had an excellent knowledge of the Bible. The family then moved to a country town where he continued helping others. After a couple of years he felt compelled to start a church in Tasmania. The church decided to grant him a Priest’s licence which is most unusual as study in a recognised college is almost always a prerequisite but his knowledge and more importantly, his conduct in life was exemplary. He had to get to Melbourne first so he bought an old delivery truck into which he packed everything. He also had a car but a problem arose. His wife did not drive, so I took off time and drove it. Second night we ended up in Ballaraat and stayed at the Airport Motel on the Sunraysia Highway in adjoining Rooms 15 and I think the other was 16. Having put my case on my bed, I went into the next room where I saw the father standing a couple of feet from the end of the bed facing the bedhead. On his back was his daughter and they were having fun and games. He ducked down to one side to her great amusement and then ducked down the other side (while standing in the same place). Suddenly he ducked very quickly frontwards and she flew off his back in the direction of the bed. Her body came down vertically, head first onto the bed, so quickly she didn’t have time to put out her arms for support, then the weight of her body acted and caused her head to bend BACKWARDS. THE HEAD CAME CLOSE TO TOUCHING HER SPINE. Well, it still sends shivers thinking about it although it happened 17 long years ago. I knew a disaster of momentous proportions had happened. She ended up lying flat on her back on the bed. She couldn’t move. She was totally paralysed. I raced into my room to fervently pray. How long I was there, who knows. Maybe a couple of minutes. Coming back into the room I see the daughter standing, perfectly well. WHAT A SURPRISE. I asked her what had happened and what were her thoughts. She said that she totally believed that her God was capable of all things and with that, she got this warm comforting feeling in her neck and FELT THE BONES MOVE BACK INTO PLACE. I believe this miracle was due to the faith of that 12 year old child coupled with the prayers and faith of her parents. You see, this is a typical example of stories I hear, but never see any evidence of. I never see this sort of stuff myself. You claim that this happened, but how can we know for sure. How do we know you aren't exagerating the claims? How do we know this even happened? I also find it bizarre that God would choose to perform a miracle such as this for this girl, yet ignore others who are in equal dire or even worse circumstances... like for instance children simlar to the one in my signature below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Now then swim, you hit one of MY trigger phrases... just the placebo effect... it's an effect so powerful that if the patient, or the treatment staff, or both, don't believe the real drug will work, despite the fact it does, you get a statistically significant number of failures of the drug among the population of correctly diagnosed patients... Ah yes, sorry to under-size the magnitude of the effect. Without going into home-life details, I know someone personally that the placebo effect works quite remarkably on, I have seen it. Totally amazing! You just have to have young kids to see the placebo effect in action. Kid pricks his finger, has a little drip of blood coming from it, screams and screams and screams and as soon as you put on a sticking plaster the screaming stops and the child is right again. I used to call sticking plasters "placebos" all the time, because they never actually did anything to get rid of pain or to heal immediately, but gave the child the feeling that some action had been taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 I am a christian who is beginning to question my faith. I share this story with you because I would love to hear a rational, non-christian perspective... Last sunday at church, an elderly woman stood up and told us about her healing: She was watching Todd Bentley's Florida Revival on God TV. She was a bit skeptical, wondering whether or not it was 'from God'. So she prayed and asked God to give her a sign so that she would know if His blessing was apon this revival and on Todd Bentley's ministry. Soon after she prayed she noticed the TV was too loud, so she turned it down. But then suddenly she realised it was not the TV, but that in fact her hearing had been vastly improved. She is notorious at our church for constantly asking people to speak up, as her hearing is quite poor. But last sunday she told us she could hear everything that was going on. Her hearing had been 'healed!' This woman is not a "whacky christian." She is quite level-headed and I have a lot of repect for her. She claims she can hear better, what am I to make of this?? I don't know about this woman, but I myself have had ongoing problems with ear congestion. For long periods of time, I would go around with blocked ears. Ocassionally though they would clear and I could hear well again. But it was only ever a temporary thing. I soon found I had to fork out large sums of money about once a year to go to an ear specialist and have crap sucked out. I think it is possible for someone to go through their life (especially if they don't like going to doctors), with blocked ears and to assume it is as a result of partial deafness. I wouldn't be surprised if this woman some time soon found her ears blocking up again. I guess time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tund1979 Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Next sunday I am going to politely ask her about the specific details of her 'miracle' Over the years I have seen many people stand up in church and thank God for some healing or miracle, only to stand up again a few weeks later to request prayer for the same sickness or problem. The fact that it has reoccurred doesn't seem to dampen their faith. In fact, they still believe they were genuinely healed the first time, but now they realise it was actually caused by evil spirits or whatever, and they really should've kicked those demons out first so the healing would "stick." They pull out bible verses to back this up of course. Why do people give God so many chances, and make so many excuses for him? They never dream of blaming god when nothing happens. Instead they find a 100 reasons why it was their fault - not enough faith, praying incorrectly, saying unbiblical prayers, failing to 'take authority' over demons, not understanding the ways of the Lord etc etc. I don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Unfortunately it's true. Christians will just about always make excuses rather than admit they've been deluded. I think it's probably just human nature. Nobody likes to believe they are wrong. And there seems to be this unwritten rule that you never blame God because he is perfect, so therefore it must be our fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tund1979 Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I watched the Florida Revival on GodTV a couple of nights ago, and noticed something very interesting: I did not see even one single healing take place. Up until a few months ago I was a hardcore, full-on Jesus loving, God worshipping Christian who never questioned miracles. Now I am ... well I don't know what I am ... skeptical I guess. But anyway, it was fascinating to watch a revival meeting without being a completely blind believer. There was no evidence presented of any healing whatsoever. One scene was particularly funny actually. This woman came up for prayer, and she had some x-rays and doctor's reports in her hand. The preacher (not Todd Bentley, some other guy) interrupted the woman mid-sentence and started saying "look at these: doctor's reports, documented reports..etc." as if to infer that the reports suggested a healing had taken place. The woman had brought the reports along to show what disease she HAD!! She was asking to be healed of it!! It was like watching the Emperor's new clothes. ARGHHH! Oh no, I think I am beginning to deconvert and it's very scary (part of me wishes I had never started looking for the answer to one tiny little question I had regarding the Bible about two years ago....it opened a can of worms, and there's no going back) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchpiper Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 I skimmed through the responses here and I don't think anyone brought up the following. I haven't looked into it, but found it intriguing (bold mine). I got the link from an article on Bro Jeff's blog. http://www.dicksutphen.com/html/battlemind.html From the link: "In most revivalist gatherings, "testifying" or "witnessing" usually follows the fear-based sermon. People from the audience come up on stage and relate their stories. "I was crippled and now I can walk!" "I had arthritis and now it's gone!" It is a psychological manipulation that works. After listening to numerous case histories of miraculous healings, the average guy in the audience with a minor problem is sure he can be healed. The room is charged with fear, guilt, intense excitement and expectations. Now those who want to be healed are frequently lined up around the edge of the room, or they are told to come down to the front. The preacher might touch them on the head firmly and scream, "Be healed!" This releases the psychic energy and, for many, catharsis results. Catharsis is a purging of repressed emotions. Individuals might cry, fall down or even go into spasms. And if catharsis is effected, they stand a chance of being healed. In catharsis, the brain-slate is temporarily wiped clean and the new suggestion is accepted. For some, the healing may be permanent. For many, it will last four days to a week -- a week is, incidentally, how long a hypnotic suggestion given to a somnambulistic subject will usually last. Even if the healing doesn't last, if they come back every week the power of suggestion may continually override the problem ... or sometimes, sadly, it can mask a physical problem which could prove to be very detrimental to the individual in the long run. I'm not saying that legitimate healings do not take place. They do. Maybe the individual was ready to let go of the negativity that caused the problem in the first place; maybe it was the work of God. Yet I contend that it can be explained with existing knowledge of brain/mind function. " ********************************************* I think many "healings" can be explained by psychological interplay with biology/physiology. People just put different labels on it. I too have seen and experienced the power of the placebo effect. One of the best explanations I ever read regarding placebo is in Norman Cousins book The Anatomy of an Illness. Another book by Cousins, Headfirst: The Biology of Hope, is along similar thought and experience....quite incredible, these bodies of ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
necrosmith Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Why do people give God so many chances, and make so many excuses for him? They never dream of blaming god when nothing happens. Instead they find a 100 reasons why it was their fault - not enough faith, praying incorrectly, saying unbiblical prayers, failing to 'take authority' over demons, not understanding the ways of the Lord etc etc. I don't get it. Kind of like an abused spouse, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
necrosmith Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Years ago I knew a girl who wore glasses. She went to a Benny Hinn crusade and claimed to be healed of her vision problem and stopped wearing her glasses. Weeks later, the glasses were back on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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