Brother Jeff Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Brother John wrote a comment recently on my Anti-Testimony and had this to say: “I am so sad for you - you talk about all the things that atheism has robbed you of, yet you embrace it. It sounds to me like you were just going to the wrong churches, or looking for God in the wrong places - have you ever looked inside yourself? I too used to wonder about whether or not Christianity was all a giant hoax, and I agonized one night until I put together several Bible verses in my mind, most notably Matthew 7:7Open Link in New Window and Revelation 3:20Open Link in New Window, and I prayed fervently that God come through the door I was struggling to open in my heart. Nothing you or anyone else could ever say could change my mind on what happened to me that night, or to believe it was a lie - I know what happened. I would ask you - you seem a very intelligent person, have you ever studied statistics? The simple fact that a species such as man could evolve or life could exist without a Divine intervention defies all laws of probability - in your non-Biblical reading you should check out some time “The Creator and The Cosmos†by Dr. Hugh Ross, who ingeniously put it that man has about as much chance of evolving from a pre-biotic cosmic goo as a tornado has of cutting through a junk yard and spitting out a brand new 747 on the other end. Brother Jeff, I will pray for you and new guy - trust me, you have enough to worry about for yourself without leading him astray. Please anyone who comes here and wants to know why I know Jesus did live and die for my sins and God raised Him from the dead, email me at johnleonard@mindspring.com and we can talk. I’m not a minister or anything like that, I’m a businessman that stumbled across this sad story and had to respond. You are my brother and God did create you in His image, whether you like to hear it or not.†Brother John: I am so sad for you… Brother Jeff: There’s no need to be. I am quite happy now as an atheist living in the real world. Brother John: you talk about all the things that atheism has robbed you of, yet you embrace it. Brother Jeff: You neglected to mention the things that I regained when I embraced atheism, like the use of my brain and common sense! Yes, I embrace atheism because it is the most rational and reasonable outlook on life. Brother John: It sounds to me like you were just going to the wrong churches, or looking for God in the wrong places… Brother Jeff: LOL! Typical fundie cop outs. My church life was just fine and I earnestly sought god with all of my heart. I walked away from the faith because I discovered that it isn’t true, and years of thought and study led me to my current position of Atheism. Brother John: I too used to wonder about whether or not Christianity was all a giant hoax… Brother Jeff: I no longer wonder. After years of thought and study, I KNOW that Christianity is a giant hoax, and a myth, and a lie. Brother John: …and I agonized one night until I put together several Bible verses in my mind, most notably Matthew 7:7Open Link in New Window and Revelation 3:20Open Link in New Window, and I prayed fervently that God come through the door I was struggling to open in my heart. Brother Jeff: So you had a religious conversion. So did I back in 1985. I got over it and am better off and more enlightened for it, and you can be too! Brother John: Nothing you or anyone else could ever say could change my mind on what happened to me that night, or to believe it was a lie - I know what happened. Brother Jeff: Then your mind is closed, and I am wasting my time responding to you, but I’ll do it anyway in the hopes of helping others. I know what happened to you too. You had a very emotional religious conversion experience which convinced you that Christianity is true. People who convert to other religions report the exact same type of experience. Can that mean that all religions are true because pretty much all believers in pretty much all religions have powerful emotional experiences at one time or another? I think not. The power of belief is incredible though, isn’t it? Brother John: I would ask you - you seem a very intelligent person, have you ever studied statistics? The simple fact that a species such as man could evolve or life could exist without a Divine intervention defies all laws of probability - in your non-Biblical reading you should check out some time “The Creator and The Cosmos†by Dr. Hugh Ross, who ingeniously put it that man has about as much chance of evolving from a pre-biotic cosmic goo as a tornado has of cutting through a junk yard and spitting out a brand new 747 on the other end. Brother Jeff: Oh, those silly, ignorant creationists… See this link: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html Brother John: Brother Jeff, I will pray for you and new guy… Brother Jeff: You are welcome to do so, but the only thing it will accomplish is to make you feel good since there is no god, and prayer doesn’t work. You may as well pray to your chair! Doing so will have the exact same result as praying to god. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxg_X2WMYuo Brother John: …trust me, you have enough to worry about for yourself without leading him astray. Brother Jeff: Yeah, the standard HELL threat. I am not leading anyone astray John. YOU are the one who is being led astray, mistaking a bunch of myths and lies for “Divine Truthâ€. Brother John: Please anyone who comes here and wants to know why I know Jesus did live and die for my sins and God raised Him from the dead, email me at johnleonard@mindspring.com and we can talk. I’m not a minister or anything like that, I’m a businessman that stumbled across this sad story and had to respond. You are my brother and God did create you in His image, whether you like to hear it or not.†Brother Jeff: LOL. Jesus is not Magically Undead, sin is a mythological concept taken from an ancient Book of Myths, and I am not made in the image of any god, and neither are you and neither is anyone else. My story is far from being sad. Yes, I was caught up in an anti-intellectual, anti-science CULT for 15 years of my life, but I escaped and I am happy. Who could ask for a better ending, and life ain’t over yet! Glory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Oh Gawd...say anything bad about their pathetic religion and these fuckers come out of the woodwork like roaches... Another great response though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 quote:I would ask you - you seem a very intelligent person, have you ever studied statistics? The simple fact that a species such as man could evolve or life could exist without a Divine intervention defies all laws of probability - in your non-Biblical reading you should check out some time “The Creator and The Cosmos†by Dr. Hugh Ross, who ingeniously put it that man has about as much chance of evolving from a pre-biotic cosmic goo as a tornado has of cutting through a junk yard and spitting out a brand new 747 on the other end. unquote: -------------------------- This guy is not with reality. The truth is evolution passed all laws of probability, even the probability of being defeated in court. Evolution won in court over Intelligent Design and Creationism. Evolution was declared the truth and the opinions of the religious 'science' was found to be NOT TRUE! Where did the religious loons lose their case? At the molecular and genetic level and basic science and biology. A 747 out of a junk yard? Metal cannot procreate no matter how many times he has seen the Transformers on television. Robots and machines do not make robot and machine babies. This is one of those simple biological facts he obviously does not understand and refuses to mentally evaluate. Not only do machines not make babies, but metal cannot create something out of metal. His argument and analogy is absurd stupid bullshit. This guy that writing to you on your board is knowingly fabricating his facts. He is a liar and a fraud. He does not understand the basics of evolution and purposefully uses words that sound real big to himself but makes him sound stupid to everyone that reads this. In short, he is typical of the normal christian at large, full of shit with their mouth open so everyone can see just how full of shit they really are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted February 1, 2008 Author Share Posted February 1, 2008 Oh Gawd...say anything bad about their pathetic religion and these fuckers come out of the woodwork like roaches... Another great response though! Thanks, Brother! Glory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 off-key "Ask and the door shall be opened unto you, Allelu...Allelu...Alleluia!" Alle...what the fuck ever, dude! Christianity is BS to the HIGHEST! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Yo, Jeff, baby! What has Atheism robbed you of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Brother John: …and I agonized one night until I put together several Bible verses in my mind, most notably Matthew 7:7 and Revelation 3:20, and I prayed fervently that God come through the door I was struggling to open in my heart. This is what is known in the 'trade' as a "string of pearls" exegesis... For the interested Matt 7:7 - Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. Rev 3:20 - Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. OOH they MUST be related since the both have the word 'knock' in then... Ex-cre-ment... Revlations has as much of the divine in it as my grandmother's recipe making Pig Brawn... which tasted very nice, but you really don't want to know what it is... or Chitterlings (num!!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted February 1, 2008 Author Share Posted February 1, 2008 Yo, Jeff, baby! What has Atheism robbed you of? See my Anti-Testimony for the details - the second part specifically. http://christianityisbullshit.com/brother-...y-in-two-parts/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 I'd not say that they were losses, unless one REALLY needed them to get out of bed in the morning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 You always hit the nail hard on the head in your debates with fundies! Good job, GLORY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 Brother John: I would ask you - you seem a very intelligent person, have you ever studied statistics? The simple fact that a species such as man could evolve or life could exist without a Divine intervention defies all laws of probability - in your non-Biblical reading you should check out some time “The Creator and The Cosmos†by Dr. Hugh Ross, who ingeniously put it that man has about as much chance of evolving from a pre-biotic cosmic goo as a tornado has of cutting through a junk yard and spitting out a brand new 747 on the other end. Why do Fundies always equate evolution, something that takes lots and lots of time, with an instantaneous example? If a tornado cut through a junk yard and it was left for about 30 million years, you would have something quite different from a junk yard. Taph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted February 2, 2008 Author Share Posted February 2, 2008 Brother John: I would ask you - you seem a very intelligent person, have you ever studied statistics? The simple fact that a species such as man could evolve or life could exist without a Divine intervention defies all laws of probability - in your non-Biblical reading you should check out some time “The Creator and The Cosmos†by Dr. Hugh Ross, who ingeniously put it that man has about as much chance of evolving from a pre-biotic cosmic goo as a tornado has of cutting through a junk yard and spitting out a brand new 747 on the other end. Why do Fundies always equate evolution, something that takes lots and lots of time, with an instantaneous example? If a tornado cut through a junk yard and it was left for about 30 million years, you would have something quite different from a junk yard. Taph Because they are terribly ignorant, and often willfully so. They have little or no understanding of science, and they don't want to. But then, I'm just stating the obvious here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted February 2, 2008 Author Share Posted February 2, 2008 If a tornado cut through a junk yard and it was left for about 30 million years, you would have something quite different from a junk yard. Taph True. You would have Jurassic Park with metal dinosaurs! Glory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 Brother John: I would ask you - you seem a very intelligent person, have you ever studied statistics? The simple fact that a species such as man could evolve or life could exist without a Divine intervention defies all laws of probability - in your non-Biblical reading you should check out some time “The Creator and The Cosmos†by Dr. Hugh Ross, who ingeniously put it that man has about as much chance of evolving from a pre-biotic cosmic goo as a tornado has of cutting through a junk yard and spitting out a brand new 747 on the other end. Obviously Brother John hasn't studied statistics either. Statistics is a guessing game, and doing statistics on something we can't test and get samples sets for is just stupid. What are the probabilities that Santa Claus sneeze 50 times a year? I'm sure it's even easier to calculate that one. Besides, even if something would have a low probability, it is not the same to having no probability or being impossible. There are white lies, gray lies and statistics, and it's mostly used by lawyers, politicians and dogmatic religious people. After all, statistics is about how probable for something to happen, that actually do happen from time to time. You can't do probability on something you assume cannot happen, because you already have established a non probability by assuming it doesn't happen. You need sample sets of events, in other words, you have to compare from a thousand universes which ones were created by a god and which ones were not, and then establish the probability for how common the non-created would be in a larger set of universes! Since no one has done that, I seriously doubt anyone can claim to have the parameters needed to say they know any of this stuff. Statistics is an easy way to lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 Brother John wrote back and had this to say: "Got a question for you: if Christianity is this giant hoax you claim it is, who benefits? Please don’t give the simplistic answer of the Church unless you further explain because the church is nothing but a bunch of people like me, and I’ve never been invited to the meetings where the conspiracy to perpetuate this giant hoax you imagine is planned and discussed. That also doesn’t explain the tens of thousands of martyrs, but most especially it doesn’t explain why the disciples and apostles stuck to the hoax after their leader was dead? Why would the perpetuators of this hoax paint themselves in such an unflattering light, as cowards who ran away but returned to tell the story? Do you at least acknowledge Jesus was a living historical figure? If not, how do you explain accounts in historical accounts by Josephus the Jewish historian and Tactitus the Roman, who had no reason to mention Jesus outside the Bible if He didn’t exist? How would they have been in on the hoax? What did it get them? It just doesn’t seem like much of an April Fools joke, much less one to keep going for over two thousand years…unless it’s all true. I also hope you do better than comparing Christianity to Islam - after all, the name of your website isn’t Islam is Bullshit, so let’s stick to the topic at hand - would you die for a lie? I wouldn’t. You couldn’t pay my family enough after my death to make me want to sacrifice my life for a lie. Oh, I know - it’s because I’m weak minded! Or, maybe, just maybe, what happened that night when I prayed was real, and true, and it’s happened to countless other people a lot better than me and I’m sure a few worse. The point is, you even claim you had a similar experience, yet you now claim it was a result of your bi polar condition or something - I’m a little unclear on what you say was your religious experience now that you don’t believe in God. I know I promised to just ask the one question, but it’s bugging me how you dismissed the statistical impossibility that the wide variety and diversity of life could exist without a superior intellect and a brilliance too amazing to truly comprehend - reptiles, mammals, birds, trees, fish, snails, amoeba, dogs, cats, people - if you stop thinking of yourself as the greatest, most important thing in the universe, you would realize the astronomically improbable odds that ANY life would exist - but here we have an abundance of life that exists in a complementary eco-system, and you want to tell me that I’m delusional? Use some of that logic you’re so proud to be able to apply on that question, and I’ll check back in a day or two to see if you have a worthwhile response. It’s easy to be dismissive and counter my facts with your facts, but can you answer a simple direct question?" My response: John, the comments section here isn’t the easiest of formats for this discussion. If you are willing, let’s move it to the forums if you want to go on beyond this exchange, and I’ll be happy to answer you there. In the meantime, who benefits? Yep, the Church. And yes you have been to meetings where plans have been made to perpetrate the hoax if you have ever been encouraged to “witness†at church, and I am sure that you have. Bringing others into the cult benefits THE CHURCH! Dying for one’s beliefs does not make those beliefs true. Relevant link: http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/apologetics.html#q11 Jesus is in all probability a myth. But as far as Josephus and Tacitus go, see this link under “Non-Christian Sourcesâ€: http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm Other false religions besides Christianity have lasted for centuries. Does that make them true? I understand my religious experience in terms of the incredible power of belief! But yes, my then undiagnosed bipolar condition certainly had a part in it too. Evolution beautifully explains the wide variety of life on this planet. I gave you a link. I suggest that you read it. What bugs me is that I give Christians educational links that they don’t bother to read. I think I answered you directly enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Gee Brother Jeff, is this the best he's got? Got a question for you: if Christianity is this giant hoax you claim it is, who benefits? Millions of people down through the centuries and today. Mainly church leaders -bishops, popes, who lived lives of luxury for their times. The average minister or priest is not living in poverty. Hell, has this person seen photographs of Vatican City? Governments, "divine right of kings", "manifest destiny" even the slave trade, the list could go on and on. You are doing a great job of answering him, Jeff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eccles Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Jesus is in all probability a myth. But as far as Josephus and Tacitus go, see this link under “Non-Christian Sourcesâ€: [url=http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm]http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm[/url -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, now let's consider Josephus and the ONLY reference to Jeshua bar Josef (Jesus): The following passage appears in the Greek version of Antiquities of the Jews xviii 3.3, in the translation of William Whiston: 3.3 Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. It has been proved that this passage is a forgery, added by Christians to further their cause. Here are similar cases in Tacitus. These brainwashed bigots who still clam there is a "god" and was a Jesus need to come to their senses (if any) and stop peddling these lies about a "God" and stop brainwashing people with these lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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