Jesus Problem

[Internet Jesus]

I am always quick to point out that the jebus story has been repeated over and over throughout history

And that the first version was sun worship.

 

But churches have fairy tales, and true accounts.

 

I've HEARD of missionaries finding entire villages of people with no outside contact to the world who were Christian.

The Iroquois natives are an example. Being that a peace-maker walked from village to village and spread the word of peace. He had holes in his hands where nails should be etc etc etc.

 

There's the story of missionaries miraculously reaping money from banks when the odds were impossible and the outlook was grim.

 

I know the dangers of applying shortcuts to thinking in these situations, that's why I've come to this board.

I want a skeptic's response EVEN if its

'yea, the odds of those things occurring randomly are very slim to nil, yet they did happen.'

 

I was formerly an SDA cultist, needless to say the Seventh Day Adventists feel they are the only true religion, messengers for god and etc.

 

isn't it evidence alone for the jesus story the fact that it repeats so much throughout history?

couldn't someone say that it's gods way of trying to reach humanity no matter what the age?

[Grandpa Harley]

Unless you can pull sources on any of that, phrase 'Holy Forgery' springs to mind...

 

The old English word 'Bollocks' seems to me to be most apposite.

[Kenny]

I've HEARD of missionaries finding entire villages of people with no outside contact to the world who were Christian.

The Iroquois natives are an example. Being that a peace-maker walked from village to village and spread the word of peace. He had holes in his hands where nails should be etc etc etc.

 

isn't it evidence alone for the jesus story the fact that it repeats so much throughout history?

couldn't someone say that it's gods way of trying to reach humanity no matter what the age?

 

I've read a lot about various tribes of Indians (I'm an Oklahoma boy) and I've never read or heard of any incidents about Native Americans and the story you've described. After the arrival of the Europeans, many Iroquois became Christians and that particular religion was totally unknown to them beforehand. Native Americans were certainly "religious" and their history holds a rich volume of stories and experiences in regards to their spirituality, their respect for their surroundings, and the desire to be in harmony with the earth. I'm certainly no expert on Native American culture, but I have read a significant amount about, at least, the main tribes in North American. Take what I've said for what it's worth!

 

I think your question - "isn't it evidence alone for the jesus story the fact that it repeats so much throughout history?" - is a valid and relevant question. I hope to provide my thoughts in a way that doesn't sound sarcastic or mean. For instance, Santa Claus, also known as Saint Nicholas, Father Christmas, Kris Kringle, or simply "Santa", is a historical, legendary and mythical figure in folklore. The "image", if you will, of Santa is different all over the world and yet still fairly well the same. Does this lend credibility to that character? I submit that it does not. Saint Nicholas of Myra is assumed to be the primary inspiration for the Christian figure of Santa Claus. Did this fellow from back in the 4th century go flying around in a sleigh with a bag of toys? Of course not. Yet this legend continues on and will for long after we're gone.

 

There are many characters in world history that are derivatives and augmentations of, perhaps, actual people. Most certainly these characters, as we know them, originated due to the qualities of these individuals or from the ideas they represented. An example I'll give is John Chapman. You probably know him as "Johnny Appleseed". Great guy, he was, and there is much we know about his life in the early Colonial days. One of the qualities he had that was remarkable was that he was a lover of nature and her creatures. That fact on it's own is to be commendable. People have the natural tendency to embellish and, even during his lifetime, he became a legendary figure. Take this account for example:

 

One cool autumnal night, while lying by his camp-fire in the woods, he observed that the mosquitoes flew in the blaze and were burnt. Johnny, who wore on his head a tin utensil which answered both as a cap and a mush pot, filled it with water and quenched the fire, and afterwards remarked, “God forbid that I should build a fire for my comfort, that should be the means of destroying any of His creatures.†Another time he made his camp-fire at the end of a hollow log in which he intended to pass the night, but finding it occupied by a bear and cubs, he removed his fire to the other end, and slept on the snow in the open air, rather than disturb the bear.

 

Great story, of course, but do you believe it to be fact? What kind of a man would, on a chilly fall night, put out his campfire because it was killing - of all creatures! - mosquitoes? The fact is that no man would. But the teller of this story wanted to illustrate that Mr. Chapman loved nature and those who retold it enjoyed the novelty of it and perhaps wished they could rise to being such a great person. Elevating him gave them a goal to shoot for. I think the character of Jesus is, in effect, much the same way only to an incredulous level. If he did exist and was a great teacher or a great man, it's simply not enough to make him a legend. He, along with many others for some reason, was fit for us to make into a god.

 

There are many characters in history who may or may not have existed and the stories of these individuals will always be told. We can take from these stories and examples whatever we need to take from them to give us comfort, encouragement, teaching, or even warning. I don't think there's anything wrong with that necessarily as long as we leave it at that. God communicating with us through stories and characters? I don't believe that to be so. I think we, as human beings, are quite capable of doing that ourselves.

[R. S. Martin]

IJ, I suggest reading Tom Harpur's Pagan Christ. He researched the Jesus figure way back into Egyptian myth. He did the same for the Mary figure. There are other books that show how the Christian perspective on Jesus simply isn't tenable.

 

There's so much wrong with the Christian argument for Jesus' existence as a historical figure that I think the only reason scholars still accept it as such is for old time's sake. They'd get kicked out of their churches if they didn't. Or they would have to examine their own faith if they didn't.

 

I think they know at some level that their arguments are pretty shakey.

[Internet Jesus]

I've HEARD of missionaries finding entire villages of people with no outside contact to the world who were Christian.

The Iroquois natives are an example. Being that a peace-maker walked from village to village and spread the word of peace. He had holes in his hands where nails should be etc etc etc.

 

isn't it evidence alone for the jesus story the fact that it repeats so much throughout history?

couldn't someone say that it's gods way of trying to reach humanity no matter what the age?

 

I've read a lot about various tribes of Indians (I'm an Oklahoma boy) and I've never read or heard of any incidents about Native Americans and the story you've described. After the arrival of the Europeans, many Iroquois became Christians and that particular religion was totally unknown to them beforehand. Native Americans were certainly "religious" and their history holds a rich volume of stories and experiences in regards to their spirituality, their respect for their surroundings, and the desire to be in harmony with the earth. I'm certainly no expert on Native American culture, but I have read a significant amount about, at least, the main tribes in North American. Take what I've said for what it's worth!

 

I think your question - "isn't it evidence alone for the jesus story the fact that it repeats so much throughout history?" - is a valid and relevant question. I hope to provide my thoughts in a way that doesn't sound sarcastic or mean. For instance, Santa Claus, also known as Saint Nicholas, Father Christmas, Kris Kringle, or simply "Santa", is a historical, legendary and mythical figure in folklore. The "image", if you will, of Santa is different all over the world and yet still fairly well the same. Does this lend credibility to that character? I submit that it does not. Saint Nicholas of Myra is assumed to be the primary inspiration for the Christian figure of Santa Claus. Did this fellow from back in the 4th century go flying around in a sleigh with a bag of toys? Of course not. Yet this legend continues on and will for long after we're gone.

 

There are many characters in world history that are derivatives and augmentations of, perhaps, actual people. Most certainly these characters, as we know them, originated due to the qualities of these individuals or from the ideas they represented. An example I'll give is John Chapman. You probably know him as "Johnny Appleseed". Great guy, he was, and there is much we know about his life in the early Colonial days. One of the qualities he had that was remarkable was that he was a lover of nature and her creatures. That fact on it's own is to be commendable. People have the natural tendency to embellish and, even during his lifetime, he became a legendary figure. Take this account for example:

 

One cool autumnal night, while lying by his camp-fire in the woods, he observed that the mosquitoes flew in the blaze and were burnt. Johnny, who wore on his head a tin utensil which answered both as a cap and a mush pot, filled it with water and quenched the fire, and afterwards remarked, “God forbid that I should build a fire for my comfort, that should be the means of destroying any of His creatures.†Another time he made his camp-fire at the end of a hollow log in which he intended to pass the night, but finding it occupied by a bear and cubs, he removed his fire to the other end, and slept on the snow in the open air, rather than disturb the bear.

 

Great story, of course, but do you believe it to be fact? What kind of a man would, on a chilly fall night, put out his campfire because it was killing - of all creatures! - mosquitoes? The fact is that no man would. But the teller of this story wanted to illustrate that Mr. Chapman loved nature and those who retold it enjoyed the novelty of it and perhaps wished they could rise to being such a great person. Elevating him gave them a goal to shoot for. I think the character of Jesus is, in effect, much the same way only to an incredulous level. If he did exist and was a great teacher or a great man, it's simply not enough to make him a legend. He, along with many others for some reason, was fit for us to make into a god.

 

There are many characters in history who may or may not have existed and the stories of these individuals will always be told. We can take from these stories and examples whatever we need to take from them to give us comfort, encouragement, teaching, or even warning. I don't think there's anything wrong with that necessarily as long as we leave it at that. God communicating with us through stories and characters? I don't believe that to be so. I think we, as human beings, are quite capable of doing that ourselves.

 

Excellent response. I get the feeling now that one can parallel any jesus story to that of Santa Clause and have it make absolute sense. This is me not being cynical.

I have another question.

Do you believe then that all men who witness ghosts/angels/supernatural miracles were ALL lying, deceived, or delusional? Is there not even then a fraction that were telling the truth?

Naturally I'm skeptical as well but what of ALL the accounts?

Men in india being thrown out of water by 'spirits'

No I don't have links, and it should be taken as bullshit unless it's proven, but does that mean everyone is a liar?

[Internet Jesus]

IJ, I suggest reading Tom Harpur's Pagan Christ. He researched the Jesus figure way back into Egyptian myth. He did the same for the Mary figure. There are other books that show how the Christian perspective on Jesus simply isn't tenable.

 

There's so much wrong with the Christian argument for Jesus' existence as a historical figure that I think the only reason scholars still accept it as such is for old time's sake. They'd get kicked out of their churches if they didn't. Or they would have to examine their own faith if they didn't.

 

I think they know at some level that their arguments are pretty shakey.

 

thank you, sounds like excellent reading.

[Kenny]

Excellent response. I get the feeling now that one can parallel any jesus story to that of Santa Clause and have it make absolute sense. This is me not being cynical.

I have another question.

Do you believe then that all men who witness ghosts/angels/supernatural miracles were ALL lying, deceived, or delusional? Is there not even then a fraction that were telling the truth?

Naturally I'm skeptical as well but what of ALL the accounts?

Men in india being thrown out of water by 'spirits'

No I don't have links, and it should be taken as bullshit unless it's proven, but does that mean everyone is a liar?

 

 

Ummm... thanks! It's just my two cents. Nothing more. With that said, you've encouraged me so I'll comment again.

 

I don't think people who've witnessed what they thought was something supernatural are ALL lying, deceived, or delusional. Some of them? You betcha. I think many who've made claims over the years have been lying or delusional. No doubt in my mind about that. But I also think it's safe to say that, over the span of time, folks have seen some things that defy explanation.

 

I can only speak for myself in areas of experience, so I'll do so now. First, I'll admit that even though I've always figured myself to be an independent thinker and very aware of what's going on around me, I still bought into Christianity. It wasn't all horrible and at the time I was very certain and secure in my beliefs. It took a long time for me to even begin to question, but when I did, things began to unravel slowly and at a pace I could comprehend. I think the people we associate with and our physical environment have a lot to do with all aspects of our perceptions and our cognitive awareness. Get a bunch of Christian guys together and take them to a mountain top in Colorado... there's no telling what kind of stories you'll hear. Been there, done that... got the t-shirt and the hat. I felt like I experienced certain things in that situation and was happy with it but at the same time, some of the guys I went with just weren't content with their experience being normal or great or even fantastic. That's when things got out of hand and some of their stories became something that I certainly didn't witness. To say any of these men were lying, deceived, or delusional would be totally wrong. Over-excited or over-stimulated? Perhaps. Responding in some way to the experience they were told would happen, that they expected to happen, and that actually happened... that's where the mind of man begins to come into play. Throw a guy up on a mountain, out in the desert, or out on the open sea and there's no telling what he's going to tell you when he gets back - especially if he was low on food or water. It's the way we are. We can't help it. Our only way of comprehending our surroundings come from our senses and depending on the circumstances, the brain can deal out a pretty wild hand.

 

I'll finish by telling of an experience that I had in the military that probably anyone who's been subjected to sleep deprivation would understand. After arriving in Bosnia, our first months on the ground were incredibly busy. Long hours, crappy food (MREs), inhospitable terrain, tents and cots, bitter cold... it just sucked from the word "GO". We'd been running convoys for DAYS and I was damned tired. Past the point of exhaustion, but so was everyone else in my unit. It was just part of the deal. On one particular night, we were convoying through the mountains and I was doing my absolute best to stay awake. The soldier that was riding shotgun with me was catching a few winks, so all I had to keep me going were the tail lights of the truck in front of me and the headlights of the one behind me. Out of nowhere, I saw a siamese cat jump up of the dash of my truck. He was wide-eyed and his teeth were showing. I couldn't tell if he was pissed off or frightened, but it scared the absolute shit out of me. I saw this as plain as day. I'm yelling and freaking out and my shotgun is going bazonkers because of how I just woke him up. I nearly lost control of the vehicle it startled me so badly. It took me a few minutes to get my bearings, and then it became intensely hilarious. One minute I'm freaking the hell out and the next I'm trying not to piss my pants with laughter. As real as it seemed, I knew I hadn't seen anything. I can even still see that cat in my mind now as I think about it. My point is that, had it been another time, another place, or another situation, I may have sworn it was real. I know it was my mind playing tricks on me, but I still "saw" it.

 

What I've said probably doesn't answer any deep questions for you. But just knowing how susceptible I, personally, am to suggestion or a given situation tells me that men and women far greater than myself probably are, too, and men and women less than I most certainly are. I think Ben Franklin was wise when he said, “Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.†I certainly believe that to be an accurate statement.

 

Again, thanks for the kind remarks. You're sure to find plenty of wisdom on this particular forum - I certainly have and I'm enjoying it very much.

[mwc]

I am always quick to point out that the jebus story has been repeated over and over throughout history

And that the first version was sun worship.

...

isn't it evidence alone for the jesus story the fact that it repeats so much throughout history?

couldn't someone say that it's gods way of trying to reach humanity no matter what the age?

What an odd conclusion to reach.

 

The first version was "sun worship" but it's really about "jesus" aka the most recent version. This is called brainwashing or at least manipulation. If the first version was sun worship then it *is* sun worship. A rose by any other name.

 

Personally, I don't think "jesus" was originally sun worship but that's beside your point. The issue is why would a middle something be the original opposed to the things that preceded it? Is the cover of a song the original or the covered song? According to the above logic it would be the cover song. How insane. The original artists made a song so that a cover band could come along and cover it. The original artists "prepared us" for the cover? That's the logic in play and people seem to just eat it up despite how insanely stupid it is.

 

mwc

[godlessgrrl]

couldn't someone say that it's gods way of trying to reach humanity no matter what the age?

 

Someone could say that, and fundies often do. But is that really the best explanation?

 

Why Jesus, for instance? Why is Jesus in particular the one god-figure that Xians have settled on as being the genuine one, even going so far as to claim that echoes of him show up in other mythologies even before Jesus was born? Why couldn't it be that Shiva has been leaving his mark all over everyone's mythologies? Or the Great Tahoma? Or Cuchulain? Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

 

Is it really that Jesus was time-traveling? Or could it be that Jesus is the Xians' god-hero of choice, so they fixate on him, bolstering the superiority of their belief by claiming that all other faiths are but shadows of the one true religion? Could it be that Xians have chosen their own god as the only Real™ one because they have a bias in his favor?

 

If you do some delving into mythology and folklore as an academic study, what emerges are a couple of notable things. For one thing, there are common themes and threads found within every single mythos or religion in the world. You'll see stories about death and rebirth, about heroes and scapegoats, you'll find Trickster gods, Wise gods, Warriors, all these human archetypes. The culture provides the details, but the themes are the same.

 

Dig a little deeper, and something else emerges: the gods are all too human. The stories are about us - about who we are, who we want to be, who we think we should be. They're explanations of how the world works, from a time before we'd really figured out the scientific method. The story of the hero-god Maui slowing the sun is supposed to explain why the day is the length that it is. The Greek gods in the Trojan War cycle act as metaphors for overpowering human emotions. The tale of Loowit and the sons of the Saghalie explains how the Cascade mountain range was formed... and so on.

 

So is it really that the gods are using mythologies to try and communicate with humans? Or is it more likely that humans have encoded universal human experiences into the stories of our gods?

 

I suspect that the story of Jesus is really about a demigod-hero turned scapegoat, who returns from the dead in triumph and splendor. Right there you have several common mythological ideas: the Hero, the Scapegoat, and a Death/Rebirth cycle. The culture provides the details, but the core story is nothing unique at all.

 

Just some food for thought, anyway.

[Vigile]

It sounds to me as if you could avoid all this confusion by not giving weight to anecdotal evidence. Extraordinary claims demand by their very nature extraordinary proof.

 

It's not necessarily true that those who make extraordinary claims are lying. My uncle, for example, was honest and well-meaning, yet he told me stories of seeing heaven descend upon his room as he slept, which was witnessed by my aunt as well. People want to believe so they do. They interpret sleep paralysis as a heavenly event and mass histeria confirms their notion when a second or third believer bears witness to events. As these events are relayed, they get exagerated (even in their own minds).

 

Remember, reality isn't objective when viewed via the subjective mode called one's own perspective. This is why they use double blind drug tests to test the eficacy of pharmacueticals.

 

But consider, that every single instance of these fantastic occurences are known only via anecdotal evidence. In a world full of cell phone video cameras, there isn't even an iota of verifiable footage of real, objective evidence. Why is that?

 

Show me verifiable proof that Indians were xian before outside influences interacted with them. Show me verifiable proof that limbs grow back in Papau New Guinea where people have more faith than they do in Topeka. Etc...

 

I see no reason why any of these claims should be given any weight of consideration based on their claims alone. Doing so will just lead one down the road to the ever increasing nonsensical.

[Grandpa Harley]

The problem is that people mistake subjective mystical experience for objective event... which it's not... are they liars? No. Is it 'True'? No... it's the liminal world where words like 'truth' and 'lie' don't really have a clear cut binary meaning...

[Internet Jesus]

It sounds to me as if you could avoid all this confusion by not giving weight to anecdotal evidence. Extraordinary claims demand by their very nature extraordinary proof.

 

It's not necessarily true that those who make extraordinary claims are lying. My uncle, for example, was honest and well-meaning, yet he told me stories of seeing heaven descend upon his room as he slept, which was witnessed by my aunt as well. People want to believe so they do. They interpret sleep paralysis as a heavenly event and mass histeria confirms their notion when a second or third believer bears witness to events. As these events are relayed, they get exagerated (even in their own minds).

 

Remember, reality isn't objective when viewed via the subjective mode called one's own perspective. This is why they use double blind drug tests to test the eficacy of pharmacueticals.

 

But consider, that every single instance of these fantastic occurences are known only via anecdotal evidence. In a world full of cell phone video cameras, there isn't even an iota of verifiable footage of real, objective evidence. Why is that?

 

Show me verifiable proof that Indians were xian before outside influences interacted with them. Show me verifiable proof that limbs grow back in Papau New Guinea where people have more faith than they do in Topeka. Etc...

 

I see no reason why any of these claims should be given any weight of consideration based on their claims alone. Doing so will just lead one down the road to the ever increasing nonsensical.

 

I think you've made my favorite point.

Warren Ellis, the god of internet, hit on something similar. That is, the power of each human being with a media device.

The ability to take pictures, videos, and record sound all over the world, gives the entire world ears and eyes where every human is.

yet no verifiable extraordinary events have happened since the lense was invented so to speak.

[Internet Jesus]

Excellent response. I get the feeling now that one can parallel any jesus story to that of Santa Clause and have it make absolute sense. This is me not being cynical.

I have another question.

Do you believe then that all men who witness ghosts/angels/supernatural miracles were ALL lying, deceived, or delusional? Is there not even then a fraction that were telling the truth?

Naturally I'm skeptical as well but what of ALL the accounts?

Men in india being thrown out of water by 'spirits'

No I don't have links, and it should be taken as bullshit unless it's proven, but does that mean everyone is a liar?

 

 

Ummm... thanks! It's just my two cents. Nothing more. With that said, you've encouraged me so I'll comment again.

 

I don't think people who've witnessed what they thought was something supernatural are ALL lying, deceived, or delusional. Some of them? You betcha. I think many who've made claims over the years have been lying or delusional. No doubt in my mind about that. But I also think it's safe to say that, over the span of time, folks have seen some things that defy explanation.

 

I can only speak for myself in areas of experience, so I'll do so now. First, I'll admit that even though I've always figured myself to be an independent thinker and very aware of what's going on around me, I still bought into Christianity. It wasn't all horrible and at the time I was very certain and secure in my beliefs. It took a long time for me to even begin to question, but when I did, things began to unravel slowly and at a pace I could comprehend. I think the people we associate with and our physical environment have a lot to do with all aspects of our perceptions and our cognitive awareness. Get a bunch of Christian guys together and take them to a mountain top in Colorado... there's no telling what kind of stories you'll hear. Been there, done that... got the t-shirt and the hat. I felt like I experienced certain things in that situation and was happy with it but at the same time, some of the guys I went with just weren't content with their experience being normal or great or even fantastic. That's when things got out of hand and some of their stories became something that I certainly didn't witness. To say any of these men were lying, deceived, or delusional would be totally wrong. Over-excited or over-stimulated? Perhaps. Responding in some way to the experience they were told would happen, that they expected to happen, and that actually happened... that's where the mind of man begins to come into play. Throw a guy up on a mountain, out in the desert, or out on the open sea and there's no telling what he's going to tell you when he gets back - especially if he was low on food or water. It's the way we are. We can't help it. Our only way of comprehending our surroundings come from our senses and depending on the circumstances, the brain can deal out a pretty wild hand.

 

I'll finish by telling of an experience that I had in the military that probably anyone who's been subjected to sleep deprivation would understand. After arriving in Bosnia, our first months on the ground were incredibly busy. Long hours, crappy food (MREs), inhospitable terrain, tents and cots, bitter cold... it just sucked from the word "GO". We'd been running convoys for DAYS and I was damned tired. Past the point of exhaustion, but so was everyone else in my unit. It was just part of the deal. On one particular night, we were convoying through the mountains and I was doing my absolute best to stay awake. The soldier that was riding shotgun with me was catching a few winks, so all I had to keep me going were the tail lights of the truck in front of me and the headlights of the one behind me. Out of nowhere, I saw a siamese cat jump up of the dash of my truck. He was wide-eyed and his teeth were showing. I couldn't tell if he was pissed off or frightened, but it scared the absolute shit out of me. I saw this as plain as day. I'm yelling and freaking out and my shotgun is going bazonkers because of how I just woke him up. I nearly lost control of the vehicle it startled me so badly. It took me a few minutes to get my bearings, and then it became intensely hilarious. One minute I'm freaking the hell out and the next I'm trying not to piss my pants with laughter. As real as it seemed, I knew I hadn't seen anything. I can even still see that cat in my mind now as I think about it. My point is that, had it been another time, another place, or another situation, I may have sworn it was real. I know it was my mind playing tricks on me, but I still "saw" it.

 

What I've said probably doesn't answer any deep questions for you. But just knowing how susceptible I, personally, am to suggestion or a given situation tells me that men and women far greater than myself probably are, too, and men and women less than I most certainly are. I think Ben Franklin was wise when he said, “Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.†I certainly believe that to be an accurate statement.

 

Again, thanks for the kind remarks. You're sure to find plenty of wisdom on this particular forum - I certainly have and I'm enjoying it very much.

 

Once I saw a demon on the cealing of my room. I was of course tired, and I wanted to see a figure on the cealing of my room.

I often ask myself if I feel guilty for looking back all those years and dismissing my experience as hallucination. Would it be unfair to the scared chemically unbalanced animal in me on the bed?

 

I've found that every christian has their own little miracle story

Some authors write extensively on the magic that goes on in their house all the time.

'satans angels opening and closing shutters' etc.

Would laughing at him be unfair to the animal that can't understand that it's just the wind?

 

I remember having to believe in such magic to wake up every morning.

The world wasn't fun or fair unless there was room for the unexplainable to take form in my life.

Although now I would much rather my world be real as reason.

 

I almost feel that my creativity and belief in abstract beyond has died since this argument lit down on my mind.

What now is the point in painting if there is nothing more? The world can always use more sci-fi artists I suppose.

 

I guess animals are extremely fallible. And no matter how they pitch fits their fallibility isn't any less.

Perhaps I'm just avoiding the look in my mother's eyes when I tell her I think absolutely everything she believes is horseshit.

[Grandpa Harley]

Favour. Please could you clip the acres of text between quote tags k. thx.

[Sophronia]

What kind of a man would, on a chilly fall night, put out his campfire because it was killing - of all creatures! - mosquitoes? The fact is that no man would.

 

I don't mean to nitpick, and perhaps this is off topic. But I don't think it is fair to say that "no man" would do this. I don't think any normal man or woman would, and the individual case you cited is unproven. However, I have known some Buddhist monks who I think might have been willing to make such a sacrifice under those circumstances. There are also Jains who might feel that it would be appropriate to extinguish a fire in this kind of situation. I cannot cite a specific occasion where this has happened, but I have known people who claimed a philosophy that would not allow them to swat mosquitoes or otherwise harm them. I presume that this would include harm via campfire.

 

Again, sorry if that's off topic; please return to your regularly scheduled discussion.

[Grandpa Harley]

I doubt it's going to feature in the psyche of a man who lived through the early indian wars and was spreading an alien species...