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Evolution And Homosexuality/transexuality


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I have been doing alot more reading in just the past couple years than I likely did all my life up to that point. Just really absorbing alot of interesting writings, from science to philosophy etc. While I have pretty much always been a proponent of evolution, I only thought of it in terms of animals and their adaptation over the millions of years and those sort of basic evolution concepts. But I have been learning that the field of the study of evolution is much deeper than that, including tying sexuality and all that goes along with that into evolutionary ideas which is interesting. I have read where some theorize that evolution plays a part in not only homosexual orientation but also the area of transexual issues as well, at least a part of the theory being that as time goes on and world population rises, evolution seems to have built in a mechanism for mainatining mating without reproduction of more people.y diversea being that as time goes on a more widely diverse mate selection process beyond the usual man/woman coupling will take shape. I can't speak with the words that the scientists who study this use, so I paraphrase, but you get the drift. Any scientific opinions or info on this? and no, I'm not becoming a transexual anytime soon, LMAO. Just another thing I find fascinating about the complexity of the natural world is all.

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I wonder if homosexuality is a built-in mechanism to prevent reproduction thereby keeping overpopulation in check.

 

What I've always wondered: is a transgendered person still able to reproduce? Also, what about a person who goes through a sex change?

 

I am trying to shatter some crazy preconceptions I have.

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I've wonderred the same thing. The only question I'd ask back when it came to the idea that evolution brings about some sort of shift in mating, is how does that then apply to the belief that people are born gay? I guess I am not sure whether the evolution theory as applied to sexuality would say that people somehow midtream as it were would change their orientation, or would it be that more people would be brong gay. ???

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It's been observed that more young survive in chimpanzee groups where there is a siginificant (10%) population of homosexuals. Lesbian pairs raise the offspring, the 'gay' males are usually guards and 'trainers' of the young... they seldom hunt, but defend the group from raiding parties and the young males can train against a healthy adult male in play 'fights' that will aid them against enemy groups and allow them to hone skills that will allow them to get up the group hierarchy... if times get hard, the males will help with hunting but it's not their defined role in the group, as will the childless female in a lesbian 'breeding' pair (at least the one not raising the child)...

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I have heard that among Chimps there is a fairly high percentage of homosexuality. Had no idea of the order of things or how that played into their day to day lives. You bring up some good info there Grandpa Harley.

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Oh, I'm a dung heap of information... some of it even applicable to daily life, and most of it geared to pissing on someone's chips...

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Oh, I'm a dung heap of information... some of it even applicable to daily life, and most of it geared to pissing on someone's chips...

 

Lol, that's alright Granpa Harley. If we can learn something, piss away!

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I have been doing alot more reading in just the past couple years than I likely did all my life up to that point. Just really absorbing alot of interesting writings, from science to philosophy etc. While I have pretty much always been a proponent of evolution, I only thought of it in terms of animals and their adaptation over the millions of years and those sort of basic evolution concepts. But I have been learning that the field of the study of evolution is much deeper than that, including tying sexuality and all that goes along with that into evolutionary ideas which is interesting. I have read where some theorize that evolution plays a part in not only homosexual orientation but also the area of transexual issues as well, at least a part of the theory being that as time goes on and world population rises, evolution seems to have built in a mechanism for mainatining mating without reproduction of more people.y diversea being that as time goes on a more widely diverse mate selection process beyond the usual man/woman coupling will take shape. I can't speak with the words that the scientists who study this use, so I paraphrase, but you get the drift. Any scientific opinions or info on this? and no, I'm not becoming a transexual anytime soon, LMAO. Just another thing I find fascinating about the complexity of the natural world is all.

 

I'm not sure I'd agree with you about population pressures. Evolution is about the survival of the individual (or, more specifically, the individual's genes), and in most species that means lots of offspring, even if they won't survive.

 

Species that invest resources in rearing offspring take more varied approaches, but they are still with the goal of passing on one's genes rather than those of a group. Though this gets complicated because (in evolutionary times) groups tend to have closer genetic relationships between members than with those outside the group, so doing the right thing for the group could be selected for.

 

There's a lot of controversy around "group selection", however. I tend to be closest to Dawkin's perspective, but I'm not an expert.

 

It is true that the spectrum of sexuality varies widely between species.

 

The other thing I'll note is that homosexuals share 1/2 their genes with each parent and 1/4 with each sibling, so if they help those individuals survive, their genes can be selected for.

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Could someone tell me where to find this information about the chimps being gay? This would be great to kill the fundy argument that " god didnt make the animals gay, so people shouldnt be gay".

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It's been observed that more young survive in chimpanzee groups where there is a siginificant (10%) population of homosexuals. Lesbian pairs raise the offspring, the 'gay' males are usually guards and 'trainers' of the young... they seldom hunt, but defend the group from raiding parties and the young males can train against a healthy adult male in play 'fights' that will aid them against enemy groups and allow them to hone skills that will allow them to get up the group hierarchy... if times get hard, the males will help with hunting but it's not their defined role in the group, as will the childless female in a lesbian 'breeding' pair (at least the one not raising the child)...

 

Godless fag chimps. Does God really hate fag chimps, too? Anyway, I agree that non-reproducing sexual proclivities would seem a logical way for nature to stabilize populations. Much nicer than natural disasters (acts of God) taking a toll.

 

- Chris

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This is strictly the kind of social engineering hypothesis that is merely conjecture AFAIC, but it has been noted that a disproportionately high number of famed historical figures have been gay. It goes that those who are freed from investing time and effort into rearing a brood would be able to invest that time and effort into another cause.

 

This, in many cases, would benefit the population as a whole, independent of the benefit to the individual.

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ive just started diving into this subject recently, not with chimps, or even primates but with oceanic mammals.

 

all though the bottle nosed dolphin will often spend much of its life with a single mate, they have been observed exhibiting homosexual behaviours, same as penguins, rodents, sperm whales and yes even some insects have been observed with this type of behaviour.

 

heres a good article on the subject from the national geographic.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20..._gayanimal.html

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If someone can be bothered to trawl thorugh my excessive output, I posted a link to a YouTube of the NatGeo documentary...

 

It was in one of the Sonya68 threads... she never did answer that...

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..and foolish to obviously support the Christian arguement that I myself have heard quite alot that God created animals and humans and none of his supposedly created creatures exhibit any homosexual behaviour. Start off with that angle and the arguement is dead in the water, and proveably so.

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They'll then invoke the fall causing it...

 

That seems to be the fallback argument for anything in nature that disproves The Bible,or biblical teachings

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Nice topic. But natural selection really works on the individual level, or genetic level. Group selection isn't really involved.

 

I DID see a book in my university book shop today though about homosexuality in animals under the Animal and Plant Scinces section, when I was buying books for this semester. Felt tempted to buy it. I may go back tomorrow a write down the title/ author at the very least and post it here....

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If the christian version of Genesis is true, then god created man to be homosexual at first. Man did not become heterosexual until God decided to make a woman for Adam. God had no interest is creating a woman. If he had, he would have made a mate for man at the same time, in the same manner the animals all had mates. If god desired man to be heterosexual then why did god bring the animals to Adam to have sexual intercourse with--looking for a helpmate=sexual intercourse. God just was not that interested in what man wanted to have sex with. God is so cruel to us, he sets us up for failure and then ridicules us when we fail just as he desired. I believe man was accepting of homsexuality and it was the influence of religion that made the lifestyle unacceptable.

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One interesting point- the native americans were one of the first cultures to accept homosexuality. Something which kind shocked the European ethnic Americans alot...

Even tight-assed Europeans didn't really give a hoot about someone's lifestyle unless it rubbed against the status quo of the religious right. Whatever the do-gooders wanted, the do-gooders got. The Puritans that settled briefly in parts of the US were rejects from Europe that got run out of England and decided to take their lunacy to North America. The Puritans were not so pure. They excuted people for leaving their settlement and living with the natives. They did not allow Quakers under penalty of death. The Puritans were so warped in the head they would make a good end-day cult today! These are the loons the religious right of today, wants to elevate to a 'founding fathers' status to try and prove the US was established by god-fearing christians. The Puritans were about as true to Christianity as Jim Jones was to his followers. One of the first settlers the Indians encountered were the Puritans. That was no picnic. The Europeans mentality is still with us today. People will object to something along a religious grounds, if no law exists, and wag their fingers at it, and all the while be doing what they are preaching against. America was not founded to protect the beliefs of a religion but to protect humanity from the clutches of religion and in a man's right to live as he chooses and not the church.

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