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Baha'i Faith: New World Religion


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Kamal as fascinating as this dialogue has grown, I have to wonder what your purpose in coming here was?

 

Why does a devout Muslim come come to Ex-Christian, specifically a one shot Baha'i preaching effort? More preaching? Showing us the error of our decadent Western ways?

 

You hardly seem prepared for the discussion at hand. So far you've come in making nothing but assertions and absolute statements. And when offered credible rebuttals you respond with shallow personal observations and outrage at the flak you get. I'm not asking you to subscribe to my way of thinking, it probably wouldnt be healthy for you in your native land. But there comes a point where your devotion rational discussion becomes suspect (that is the purpose of this forum).

 

So why are you here? You are obviously rather happy with your coin and would rather believe that everyone elses isnt legal tender. Well the fact is not all of us have coins Kamal. Not everyone needs a written belief system to adhere to, its not a question of abandoning one for another.

 

I'm not wholly opposed to your presence here. But with the current situation you are wasting my time as well as yours. Im not aware of your access to information, but I would recommend that you become a little more well read on what we are talking about, and what the rest of the worlds people are like. Again you dont have to believe it, consider it like learning another language, that you might better communicate in terms that make some sense.

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In our culture pigs are sign of people who enjoy looking at their wife to be fucked by strangers.

 

When you "assign" new meanings to *people* such as "pig" or infidel, are you saying then, that as a "pig", they are NOT people and worthy of death?

 

Like when you called some people in your country "occupying" forces, does that mean they are NOT people?

 

When you label someone other then a *person* does that person, pig, infidel or occupier become no longer a person? Is this how your religion justifies killing? Is that how they make it right?

 

Do YOU think it is right to kill pigs, infidels or occupiers?

 

There. I asked you a civil question without insult. You apologized to me in one recent post, show me you mean it by answering this question HONESTLY.

 

Thank you.

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Kamal as fascinating as this dialogue has grown, I have to wonder what your purpose in coming here was?

 

Why does a devout Muslim come come to Ex-Christian, specifically a one shot Baha'i preaching effort? More preaching? Showing us the error of our decadent Western ways?

 

Oh doctor, I have an answer for that, it is here to recruit.

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And I still don't have an answer to his/her statement about religious freedom in Iran in the light of that recently a whole bunch of Baha'i believers were convicted of false religion, or if the only few non-Muslims still have to pay tax.

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Kamal as fascinating as this dialogue has grown, I have to wonder what your purpose in coming here was?

 

Why does a devout Muslim come come to Ex-Christian, specifically a one shot Baha'i preaching effort? More preaching? Showing us the error of our decadent Western ways?

 

Oh doctor, I have an answer for that, it is here to recruit.

 

Most likely, and he's in over his head. I want to see what he'll say when asked point blank.

 

Probably a reiteration of his "seeing if our coin is shiny because we say his is ironic" line. :P

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We are debating on endless matters why? Because we are entirely in opposite side of discussion filed. While at least, we need to a

 

common view to come up with.

 

Godlier do believe the cosmos have an invisible sagacious manager who manages all movements cleverly by his specific power. They base their

 

beliefs on such being. He has written a punctual program to operate his creatures. They look at the universe generally and if something appears

 

to be out of general rules, they try to justify it because that manager is wise.

 

On the other hand idiots do not believe so, they say all things must directly be observable by our senses, otherwise they are not acceptable and

 

are imaginary and fantasy things. They believe all principals of nature have happened accidently. Universe has written its rules by itself. They

 

look at universe specifically and exceptions are firm evidences for rejection of believing in a sagacious manager.

 

Hence A frog in hand of A chimp IS an absolute evidence for them but billions of another animals do not work for the opponent.

 

To be atheist is a big pride but to be religious is an inexcusable sin. So they have right to base their evidence on their beliefs but when a Godly

 

defended of his claim by addressing to source of his beliefs, they say your beliefs are shit, nonsense and fantasy.

 

They are insisting on their beliefs firmly, but call others fundamentalist.

 

They ignore 70 years of annoyance of millions of religious people in Soviet Union by their prophets but when I claim religions are free in my

 

country, they ignore freedom of all religion and call an imitation little sect (Baha'i) as a religion then they say you are a big liar because you do

 

not allow confederates of your big enemy (Israel) to do everything they want.

 

They are always in right way so address others and say your culture is wrong, your analogy is unjustified your country is shithole your religion is

 

so and etc….

 

They usually highlight the sections of your story that can be rejected by their evidence but take policy of silent toward other sections; behavior of

 

some animals is a good reason for homosexuality and is completely natural but same act of most of them on their relatives is meaningless and

 

maybe unnatural and immoral so we can not obey them and defend of relative sexuality why? I don't know!

 

They ask you about killing pigs, occupiers and idiots. You can't find any relations among them and if you answer that, we do not eat pork so

 

killing pigs is your everyday job, an occupier whit a gun in his hand is enemy and killing enemies in wars is an absolute right for everyone even

 

for atheists, and killing idiots because of their heresy is not a religious (Shiite) low, they try to find an exception and pretend it as a general rule

 

then began to answer base on such rules.

 

When you claim, nowadays and during the whole history, most of big criminals were idiots after you present some examples, they just put their

 

fingers on one of them and say loudly; Hitler was a Christian, but they do not express on which rule of Bible and which command of Christ he did

 

such enormous massacres and criminals. Also repeat it about Gorge W Bosh and Bin-ladan. Fortunately, they can not defend of others.

 

They have right to say; we have tested Christianity several times and have found it nonsense, but you have no right to test your faith and

 

declare; it really works in all aspects.

 

Every thing must be measured by their measure tolls (beliefs), otherwise it is unscientific, shit and etc……….

 

In their opinion religions are completely similar, if one them (Christianity) was unacceptable; other ones are so, and no need to test them one by

 

one.

 

Every criminal status has two sides; 1- victims 2- convicts. They often are patron of second side and award them (obsolescence of death

 

penalty), why? I don't know.

 

When they can't answer your questions properly, they first interpret your story in a wrong way then answer it according to their false

 

interpretations.

 

At the end:

 

In one of my last posts I claimed that no need to positive evidences for existence of God, but somebody asked me for positive one. I already

 

offer one of them that you probably have not heard it before. I hope you consider it positively and do not stare at me as an itinerant seller.

 

As I read in some testimonies here, one of the most important reasons that convinces somebody leaves Christianity is contradiction in Bible texts.

 

Quran has referred to this problem and explains why previous scriptures are so:

 

Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say," This is from God," that they may

 

purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written and woe unto them for that they earn thereby. (2: 97)

 

On the other hand Quran claims this problem has no way to it because God prevents it of perverting by people:

 

Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder (Quran), and indeed it is We who will preserve it. (15:9)

 

Then God underlines:

 

Have they not meditated on the Quran? If it had come from some other source than God, they would have found a great deal

 

of contradiction in it. (4:82)

 

So GOD explicitly has invited all unbelievers to find a great deal of contradiction on Quran, if you find it honestly, you go your way and I give it

 

up

otherwise, this book proves its Lord and you have to give your belief up.

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Hoo boy! Same shit different people. I always find it amazing that god speaks to people in foreign countries just so the rest of us have to get it translated. God does work in mysterious ways, he can only seem to be able to speak to just one of us at a time. He used up all of his power making the universe and earth, I guess.

 

Ok, Bahai', here is a test for you and your god. I'll put two pieces of paper in the fireplace. I'll light one with a match and you ask god to light the other with his magic. Better yet, to keep things fair, I'll throw a box of matches in the air and he can use all of them that he can grab before they come back down to the floor. If your god can light this burner with the matches I just gave him, then I'll believe the line of bullshit you are typing on this website.

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We are debating on endless matters why? Because we are entirely in opposite side of discussion filed. While at least, we need to a

 

common view to come up with.

No, it's an endless matter BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO PROOF.

 

Godlier do believe the cosmos have an invisible sagacious manager who manages all movements cleverly by his specific power. They base their

 

beliefs on such being. He has written a punctual program to operate his creatures. They look at the universe generally and if something appears

 

to be out of general rules, they try to justify it because that manager is wise.

Why must everything God do be justified? Do you say things are good because that's what God has to love or does God love things that are good because they are good? Or look at it this way, is God's will so great that he dictates what is right and wrong? If so, how does that make him any different than a tyrant? Or is God bounded by the same moral laws of right and wrong that humanity is bounded by that are even higher than he is?

 

On the other hand idiots do not believe so, they say all things must directly be observable by our senses, otherwise they are not acceptable and

 

are imaginary and fantasy things. They believe all principals of nature have happened accidently. Universe has written its rules by itself. They

 

look at universe specifically and exceptions are firm evidences for rejection of believing in a sagacious manager.

Um, no, we look at a LACK OF EVIDENCE as reasons to reject the existence of God. Do you understand anything about atheists at all?

 

Hence A frog in hand of A chimp IS an absolute evidence for them but billions of another animals do not work for the opponent.
You make no fucking sense.

 

To be atheist is a big pride but to be religious is an inexcusable sin. So they have right to base their evidence on their beliefs but when a Godly

 

defended of his claim by addressing to source of his beliefs, they say your beliefs are shit, nonsense and fantasy.

Uh, wrong, atheists DO NOT BELIEVE IN SIN, so why the hell would an atheist believe religion is a sin if they don't believe in sin themselves? Do you even understand what you're saying or are you just spouting out whatever pops into your mind the moment you think it?

 

They are insisting on their beliefs firmly, but call others fundamentalist.
No, they are demanding you GIVE PROOF that your God is real if you think you can convert them, otherwise they don't give a shit what you believe. They'd probably be more than happy to believe in God if you can give them proof, but YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY PROOF. If they were insisted on their beliefs only, why would they ask for you to give proof? So far the only one who's insisted on their beliefs around here is you.

 

They ignore 70 years of annoyance of millions of religious people in Soviet Union by their prophets but when I claim religions are free in my

 

country, they ignore freedom of all religion and call an imitation little sect (Baha'i) as a religion then they say you are a big liar because you do

 

not allow confederates of your big enemy (Israel) to do everything they want.

That is sick and disgusting because you've just admitted that you think it's ok to kill people of the Ba-ha'i faith because they aren't a "real religion." I'd like for you to define what a "real religion" and why you think it is justified to kill someone over a fantasy book.

 

They are always in right way so address others and say your culture is wrong, your analogy is unjustified your country is shithole your religion is

 

so and etc….

I'd like to know where in this thread anyone has called your country a shithole, otherwise please stop lying, you murder advocate. And I don't think anyone's culture is wrong. I think killing people because you disagree with the way they live their life is wrong.
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They usually highlight the sections of your story that can be rejected by their evidence but take policy of silent toward other sections;
You mean like yourself?

 

behavior of

 

some animals is a good reason for homosexuality and is completely natural but same act of most of them on their relatives is meaningless and

 

maybe unnatural and immoral so we can not obey them and defend of relative sexuality why? I don't know!

Once again, you make no sense.

 

They ask you about killing pigs, occupiers and idiots. You can't find any relations among them and if you answer that, we do not eat pork so

 

killing pigs is your everyday job, an occupier whit a gun in his hand is enemy and killing enemies in wars is an absolute right for everyone even

 

for atheists, and killing idiots because of their heresy is not a religious (Shiite) low, they try to find an exception and pretend it as a general rule

 

then began to answer base on such rules.

IT IS A RELIGIOUS LOW, because killing anyone over such a fucking petty and idiotic reason as religion is inexcusable, especially when you have no fucking proof that the religion you're killing someone over for is even true. You might as well start killing people who disagree with you on Lord Of The Rings.

 

When you claim, nowadays and during the whole history, most of big criminals were idiots after you present some examples, they just put their

 

fingers on one of them and say loudly; Hitler was a Christian, but they do not express on which rule of Bible and which command of Christ he did

 

such enormous massacres and criminals.

READ http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm

 

Also repeat it about Gorge W Bosh and Bin-ladan. Fortunately, they can not defend of others.
Since when the fuck has anyone here defended either Bush or Bin Laden?

 

They have right to say; we have tested Christianity several times and have found it nonsense, but you have no right to test your faith and

 

declare; it really works in all aspects.

I'd like to know where the fuck anyone in this thread ever said you had no right to test your faith, otherwise PLEASE STOP LYING.

 

 

 

Every thing must be measured by their measure tolls (beliefs), otherwise it is unscientific, shit and etc……….
Obviously, if we don't believe in your beliefs, then what the fuck makes you think we're going to measure them by your standards if we think it's all bullshit?

 

In their opinion religions are completely similar, if one them (Christianity) was unacceptable; other ones are so, and no need to test them one by

 

one.

You mean besides this whole thread where we tested your faith and found it to be bullshit?

 

Every criminal status has two sides; 1- victims 2- convicts. They often are patron of second side and award them (obsolescence of death

 

penalty), why? I don't know.

I have no fucking clue what this has to do with anything.
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On the other hand idiots do not believe so, they say all things must directly be observable by our senses, otherwise they are not acceptable and

 

are imaginary and fantasy things. They believe all principals of nature have happened accidently. Universe has written its rules by itself. They

 

look at universe specifically and exceptions are firm evidences for rejection of believing in a sagacious manager.

EXCUSE ME?!??

 

I'm usually one of the more tolerant and patient people on this board, but this is beyond what even I can stand.

 

My reaction is: WHAT THE FUUUCK!!!

 

You're calling us idiots.

 

Earlier you were getting all upset for making fun of your God, but you are calling us idiots. And earlier in your post you kind of stretching out your hand and say we should find common ground, but there's the problem, and read this carefully: I CAN NOT FIND COMMON GROUND WITH A PERSON WHO CALL ME AN IDIOT!

 

Or put it this way: YOU CALL ME AN IDIOT, THEN I CALL YOU AN IDIOT.

 

Kamal, You are an Idiot with capital I. God or Allah or Jahweh, does NOT exist. It's just a childish fantasy and you refuse to grow up.

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...Ok, Bahai', ...

Baha'i? No, it's Kamal that posted. Kamal is Muslim as far as I know, and not a Baha'i-ist.

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When they can't answer your questions properly, they first interpret your story in a wrong way then answer it according to their false

 

interpretations.

You mean like yourself?

 

At the end:

 

In one of my last posts I claimed that no need to positive evidences for existence of God, but somebody asked me for positive one. I already

 

offer one of them that you probably have not heard it before. I hope you consider it positively and do not stare at me as an itinerant seller.

I'd like to know where it was you posted this great and awesome proof because clearly we've must missed such an important thing.

 

Quran has referred to this problem and explains why previous scriptures are so:

 

otherwise, this book proves its Lord and you have to give your belief up.

If the Quran really was the inerrant, perfect word of God, free of any contradictions, and it really contained the abosulte universal truth about God, wouldn't such a truth be so obvious that everyone in the universe would agree with it? But obviously not everybody in the universe agrees with the meaning of the Quran, otherwise you wouldn't have some Muslims who believe their religion is one that advocates peace while the al-qaida terrorists use it to justify their mass genocide. If the Quran was really the perfect, inerrant word of God and contained the absolute universal truth about God, then both of these groups of Muslims would come to universal agreement over what the meaning of the Quran scriptures is. Obviously, they cannot come to an agreement as to what their meaning is, so obviously it must not be perfect, inerrant, or contain the absolute universal truth about God because otherwise it would be obvious to everyone what the truth was.
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Kamal, you have shown great disrespect to us and this website. And only way for me to repay this to you, is to tell you that the Q'uran is JUNK, and Allah is only a fantasy god. If this upsets you, then know that when you call me idiot, I get upset too. You have offended me, so I'm just repaying the debt. If you want civil dialogue, you better step up to the plate and respect us first, because this is our website and not yours. If you don't get this simple concept, then maybe we should just kick you out.

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They ask you about killing pigs, occupiers and idiots. You can't find any relations among them and if you answer that, we do not eat pork so

 

killing pigs is your everyday job, an occupier whit a gun in his hand is enemy and killing enemies in wars is an absolute right for everyone even

 

for atheists, and killing idiots because of their heresy is not a religious (Shiite) low, they try to find an exception and pretend it as a general rule

 

then began to answer base on such rules.

 

 

 

Alrighty retard, you KNOW you were talking about PEOPLE as *PIGS*, not the animal. And the second part of this, you CLEARLY have no problems killing troops. FUCK YOU! Goddamned asshole bomber sympathist! If there were a hell, you would burn in it!

 

So fuck you very much!

 

I still think this asshole fuckwad should be banned, what goddamned purpose does it serve this community to have to put up with this drival?

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Hence A frog in hand of A chimp IS an absolute evidence for them but billions of another animals do not work for the opponent.

How low is your IQ? Can you even count to 10? Are you an Idiot?

 

Here's what happened in this topic the last couple of days:

 

YOU said that only Humans can be homosexuals, and animals do not.

 

WE proved you wrong by showing you a video about animal homosexuality.

 

Then YOU said animals only do those acts because they want to procreate, and humans do it because of pleasure.

 

WE proved with that video that animals do sexual things out of pleasure too.

 

And now YOU claim that is not an evidence, because it's just one incident.

 

You really don't get these things, do you?

 

To be atheist is a big pride but to be religious is an inexcusable sin. So they have right to base their evidence on their beliefs but when a Godly

 

defended of his claim by addressing to source of his beliefs, they say your beliefs are shit, nonsense and fantasy.

But it is a fantasy, because you have not proven anything. You say "it is so, I feel so, therefor God exist, because I want it and think it and feel it", but that's exactly what wishful thinking is! You want God to exist, therefore you believe he exists.

 

The problem is that we are brought up in a culture where we learn logic and reason. We learn to think at least to some degree. But how many books have you read outside of the Q'uran? 1 or 2 books? Maybe you're one of the higher scholars so they let you read a whooping 3 books? In this country, USA, we have access to so many books that a lifetime is not long enough to read them all! You need to get some serious study done and start using your brain, or it will shrink to nothingness. No wonder you kill children and women in your country. You're just like animals!

 

They are insisting on their beliefs firmly, but call others fundamentalist.

 

They ignore 70 years of annoyance of millions of religious people in Soviet Union by their prophets but when I claim religions are free in my

 

country, they ignore freedom of all religion and call an imitation little sect (Baha'i) as a religion then they say you are a big liar because you do

 

not allow confederates of your big enemy (Israel) to do everything they want.

So is Baha'i a free religion in Iran? NO! Because you persecute them and prosecute them. So do NOT say you have religious freedom when you don't. You're the idiot here.

 

They are always in right way so address others and say your culture is wrong, your analogy is unjustified your country is shithole your religion is

 

so and etc….

Well, YOU DO THAT TO US!

 

So basically you want to blame us, call us names, tell us we're wrong and our culture is wrong and that anything we say is wrong, but at the same time anything you say we should just shut up and accept?

 

You, Kamal, do NOT believe in Justice. If Allah is Just in your opinion, and you should be just, then you have failed. Fairness is important. We showed you facts and arguments based on logic, and you get all hellbent because it doesn't fit what you want. Mabye you're in the wrong website then?

 

They have right to say; we have tested Christianity several times and have found it nonsense, but you have no right to test your faith and

 

declare; it really works in all aspects.

 

Every thing must be measured by their measure tolls (beliefs), otherwise it is unscientific, shit and etc……….

 

In their opinion religions are completely similar, if one them (Christianity) was unacceptable; other ones are so, and no need to test them one by

 

one.

Okay, I see what you're saying (or I think I understand), you say that because we have rejected Christianity, we can't just reject Islam, since we know what Christianity is all about, but we don't know what Islam is about; that's a reasonable argument.

 

But the problem is that many of us, but not all of us, have rejected God completely. So if you stand for a religion that proclaim a single super-being that somehow exists outside of the 213 billion light year wide Universe, then we already now our position. But again, understand, this is just the opinion of some of us on this forum. There are several on this board that believe in some anonymous God, and some believe in paganism, or wicca and so on. But personally I have a problem believing in any God, since I think it doesn't explain our existence at all; it's just a black-box argument to fill out the gaps in our knowledge, and probably people want to do so because they have lazy minds, and can't understand science. Basically what I'm saying is that you are too dumb to understand arguments against your belief. Yes, I'm being rude to you, because you were rude to us. You get what you give.

 

Every criminal status has two sides; 1- victims 2- convicts. They often are patron of second side and award them (obsolescence of death

 

penalty), why? I don't know.

 

When they can't answer your questions properly, they first interpret your story in a wrong way then answer it according to their false

 

interpretations.

What the hell did you just say?

 

At the end:

 

In one of my last posts I claimed that no need to positive evidences for existence of God, but somebody asked me for positive one. I already

 

offer one of them that you probably have not heard it before. I hope you consider it positively and do not stare at me as an itinerant seller.

 

As I read in some testimonies here, one of the most important reasons that convinces somebody leaves Christianity is contradiction in Bible texts.

Here's the most blatant contradiction between religion and reality... religion talks about a being that does not exist. And this is a contradiction in Islam too. God does not exist.

 

Your "positive" evidence was based on what you felt, not facts. It's a fact that you feel what you feel, but a feeling is in itself not a fact about what you feel. I feel that God does not exist, hence we have contradictory evidences here. Your evidence is the proof that God exists. But I feel that he doesn't, and my evidence is also a feeling and as such just as strong of evidence as yours, so God must *not* exist. And both can't be simultaneous true. So the problem lies in the evidence rather than the logic.

 

So GOD explicitly has invited all unbelievers to find a great deal of contradiction on Quran, if you find it honestly, you go your way and I give it

 

up

otherwise, this book proves its Lord and you have to give your belief up.[/size]

Eh, the problem is that I personally do not believe there is a God of any kind... and the reason is that I don't see any evidence of it at all. But I have seen enough evidence that the human mind makes up these fantasies to cope with life and get through the day. It's a security blanket. And the clearest evidence for this is that we have so many religions in our world today, and new ones are made up and created by man as we speak. For instance Raelians, Scientologists are two that have a great success in fooling people into belief of made up stuff, and they were created within the last 100 years. Why do humans do this? I think it's clear that people need it, otherwise they wouldn't make up new ones and then have a huge number of followers. The exact reasons I think we can discuss in another thread.

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...Ok, Bahai', ...

Baha'i? No, it's Kamal that posted. Kamal is Muslim as far as I know, and not a Baha'i-ist.

Ok, sorry, I got lost in the mountains of bullshit, wrong guy but same test applies. This test is for anyone that has a supreme magical god that can do absolutely anything from parting the sea to sewing burqas. If their god is out there, he, she or it can prove it.

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Im with SWIM, ban this bugger.

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I concur... nothing to see here...

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Ok, sorry, I got lost in the mountains of bullshit, wrong guy but same test applies. This test is for anyone that has a supreme magical god that can do absolutely anything from parting the sea to sewing burqas. If their god is out there, he, she or it can prove it.

Very true. But Kamal is really over the top.

 

And regarding banning the bastard, I am considering it.

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[quote name='HanSolo' date='Feb 13 2008, 09:08 AM' post='349506'

You're calling us idiots.

Excuse me please !!!!

I was thinking idiot means infidel

I honestly want you forgive me. It's only an inadvertent false.

Unfortunately webmaster dose not allow me to edit my posts. How can I do edit please guide me.

Thanks

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The 'I no spik englis wel' defence... didn't I say so?

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Lets take a poll, who believes it was an innocent misunderstanding?

 

I dont want to go through them all again, but hasnt Kamal made use of the word infidel before in the proper context?

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[quote name='HanSolo' date='Feb 13 2008, 09:08 AM' post='349506'

You're calling us idiots.

Excuse me please !!!!

I was thinking idiot means infidel

I honestly want you forgive me. It's only an inadvertent false.

Unfortunately webmaster dose not allow me to edit my posts. How can I do edit please guide me.

Thanks

I think you get that function when you reach 25 posts.

 

And I guess I can accept that apology, to some degree... but you have to start looking up the words and choose your words carefully. Because you have officially pissed me off.

 

You see, the Bible say unbelievers are fools too, so it didn't surprise me if Muslims had the same opinion. Both Christians, Jews and Muslims seems to think that unbelievers are idiots, fools, crazy, stupid, unethical, immoral and so on, and the truth of the matter is that it is the opposite. There are studies that show that unbelievers tend to be smarter, more ethical and more moral than any religious person. So you're the one that's living a lie, not us.

 

---

 

Kamal, do you currently live in Iran?

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There is quite a language barrier when it comes to Kamal, but from what I have been able to understand, he is highly offensive and that is very clear to me.

 

He is not a Baha'i, and is not saying anything relevent to the subject, so I think at a minimum this thread should be closed.

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He is not a Baha'i, and is not saying anything relevent to the subject, so I think at a minimum this thread should be closed.

Good point. So be it.

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