How Do You Deal With Atheists?

[R. S. Martin]

My adventures on the fundy forums left an impression. We had some intense exchanges until I saw that further communication is unproductive so I basically pulled out. But I still go back sometimes to see what's going on. Now they started a thread "How do you deal with atheists?" They openly discuss me in the third person and fear lest they defile their own spirits in their efforts to witness to me--apparently they're getting upset because I don't buy what they're saying and they imagine I'm twisting God's word and nature. Apparently, according to them, the only reason I can't make sense of the plan of salvation is because I have a closed mind and am unwilling to learn.

 

Oh, okay. They have a right to their own opinion.

 

So now: How should they deal with the atheist? That is their question.

 

How indeed?!?!? It's not as though I didn't ask honest questions and explained till I was blue in the face WHAT it is that I want. They wouldn't listen! Their answers held no water! And discussion of their answers was not permitted! So, um, how was that again? How should they deal with atheists?

 

Has anyone ever seen such absolute thorough-going total CRAP?

[GraphicsGuy]

Apparently, according to them, the only reason I can't make sense of the plan of salvation is because I have a closed mind and am unwilling to learn.

[snip]

Has anyone ever seen such absolute thorough-going total CRAP?

 

Well, Ruby, that's the way it goes and that is what most unbelievers will experience when arguing with the religiously brain-washed.

 

"Damn! We couldn't brainwash her. Now what do we do?"

 

But, look at it this way. On the outside they ask, "How do we deal with the athiests?"

 

On the inside they're all asking themselves, "How do I deal with the questions?"

 

They all do it. We all did it. Questions don't go away. You can shove them down for a while, but they always come back. You can explain them away...for a while. They always come back. Deep down they know. Deep down we all knew for the longest time.

 

Until each person is ready to face it (or is forced to face it through life circumstance) there is really nothing you can do to convince them.

 

Really, it's not our job to convince or try to deconvert anyone anyway. We tell our stories, we ask questions, we stick to our guns. I think the best "reason" for doing all that is to figure yourself out, not to try and "bring the light" to anyone else.

[Kenny]

RubySera, I think in your case, the best way to deal with you might be a dozen roses and a box of expensive chocolates. A generous Barnes & Noble gift certificate?

 

But, that's just me...

 

Ask for large denominations of US currency. They may go for it.

[D Laurier]

Hullo Ruby, As an atheist I deal with atheists by living my own life.

As to dealing with insane fundies who cant cope with your not buying into their fantasy... Just walk away.

[Kelli]

In my opinion, if dealing with such folk stresses you out or makes you angry, don't do it. Just a thought. What I mean is dealing with the xtians who are stressing you out. NM the atheists LOL.

 

Honestly, I don't really see any point to debating christians on a forum. I was on forums plenty before I deconverted and when non-Christians came in and tried to reason, my reaction was basically the same one we have here to Christians coming in and trying to preach to us. IOW, it wasnt effective at all, and maybe even counter-productive.

 

Do you know what changed my mind the most? Meeting people. Normal, nice people who happened to be non-Christian. Not even atheist necessarily, many of them were agnostic. You have to understand the fear that these people have of the unknown. Atheism is truly probably one of the most fearful things to a Christian. I was always taught to stay away from and fear non-Christians, as they were "of their father the devil."

 

It was only when I began to meet non-Christians in a relaxed, non-combative atmosphere that I realized they were decent folk and not some demons out to steal my soul.

 

Just food for thought.

 

Kel

[MonolithTMA]

But, look at it this way. On the outside they ask, "How do we deal with the athiests?"

 

On the inside they're all asking themselves, "How do I deal with the questions?"

 

Of course they reverse that and say:

 

On the outside the Atheist asks, "How do we deal with the Christians?"

 

On the inside they're all asking themselves, "How do I deal with the questions?"

 

I remember in my more fervent days fully believing that every Atheist, or believer of any other faith than my own, lay in bed at night, staring at the cold emptiness of the world, thinking "Isn't there something more? What if I'm wrong? Does God really exist? Have I been hiding from him?"

 

Now I realize that I was just desperately trying to justify my supposed unwavering belief, but at the time, I was fully convinced that anyone that didn't know "the truth" about Christ was just putting up a front.

[hereticzero]

They will add the discussion to their scripts so that when the issue comes up, they will have a ready rapid response for it. Since they cannot argue effively, they think pat-answers, prethunk thoughts, are the way.

[R. S. Martin]

Apparently, according to them, the only reason I can't make sense of the plan of salvation is because I have a closed mind and am unwilling to learn.

[snip]

Has anyone ever seen such absolute thorough-going total CRAP?

 

Well, Ruby, that's the way it goes and that is what most unbelievers will experience when arguing with the religiously brain-washed.

 

"Damn! We couldn't brainwash her. Now what do we do?"

 

But, look at it this way. On the outside they ask, "How do we deal with the athiests?"

 

On the inside they're all asking themselves, "How do I deal with the questions?"

 

This rings as true as iron on iron. My charge that they won't allow cross-examination has actually been answered. A lady posted a thread with that title, quoting 1 Pet. 3:15&16: But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

 

As I analyze all of this, I realize that her faith in God and truth seems genuine. Perhaps she is headed for some really deep thinking. Whatever, here is my response:

 

L___, I just wrote a long post and now I lost it. I don't think you would accept a word of it anyway so I won't try to rewrite it. I have learned what I came to learn. I didn't know when I came what I wanted but I learned a lot. I learned that people here think fundamentally different from how I and my fellow exChristians think. All of you base truth off what your chosen authority says. We base truth off cause-and-effect.

 

Using cause-and-effect, I have over the years of my lifetime cross-examined every single claim all of you and other Christians have made. I have read how others did the same. Not a single one of them stands up to scrutiny. That is all I have to say.

 

Maybe that answers your questions, Kelli and D. Laurier.

 

Madame, thanks. I know you've seen the crap from every direction. Mainly I was venting and I suspect you understood that, and while you were at it you probably also understood what it would mean to hear a sister affirm that she knew what it felt like. Thanks a lot.

[MonolithTMA]

They will add the discussion to their scripts so that when the issue comes up, they will have a ready rapid response for it. Since they cannot argue effively, they think pat-answers, prethunk thoughts, are the way.

 

That totally took me back to my brief stint as a telemarketer. That's exactly what they would do as they revised a script.

 

1 Peter 3:15

15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

 

Too many give pat answers instead of actually thinking about what they believe and why. Sadly, far too many forget or ignore the "with gentleness and respect" part and turn it into smugness and condescension.

[R. S. Martin]

They will add the discussion to their scripts so that when the issue comes up, they will have a ready rapid response for it.

 

That's one thing I sometimes worry about when I have this kind of convo with fundies. On the other hand....

 

Since they cannot argue effively, they think pat-answers, prethunk thoughts, are the way.

 

yeah, pat-answers and prethunk thoughts. That is what I found so ludicrous and outrageous in their "How do we deal with atheist" thread. They have already settled for pat answers as to why their answers didn't work. It had nothing to do with their inferior answers; it had EVERYTHING to do with the atheist's unwillingness to learn--couldn't you have guessed it!

 

The funny thing is, on here I'm never sure if I'm all that much of an atheist. After all, I know there's more to life than concrete black and white material reality. But when I'm with the fundies it's like WHOAH! a-a-a-w-W-H-A-T!? an...A T H E I S T ! OOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

 

There's only one reason God created atheists for and that is conversion. And conversion wasn't working. At all. This creature (I was actually called that in a pm) had the audacity to speak with confidence about God and the Bible in foreign ways the likes of which they had never even heard--nay in their worst nightmares they hadn't come across such blasphemy. Not that they ever told me this; I'm just trying to get inside their brains here and imagine what they must have suffered in their bewilderment. They are, after all, what I once was.

 

In good Mennonite style, the responsible thing to do at this point is hold a conference meeting to decide what to do, should this ever happen again. Obviously, they failed this time but next time they need to be better prepared. Hence this thread about how to deal with atheists. It all makes sense but I needed to work it through with others who have been, or are going, through the same kind of thing. Thanks to all who responded.

 

Also, it feels good to have gone on this forum. I feel like I learned so much of value. These are "my" people in so many ways. They are not the people I grew up with but they are of similar theology and culture. More so than the regular fundy forums. I think it's also less hostile than many forums are. Possibly this is because it's a closed forum; you have to be a member to read the threads. That means you get only people who are somewhat serious about this particular denomination, and not just anybody off the street who wants to pick a fight. That made it safer for me to discuss items of concern or interest.

[R. S. Martin]

In my opinion, if dealing with such folk stresses you out or makes you angry, don't do it. Just a thought. What I mean is dealing with the xtians who are stressing you out. NM the atheists LOL.

 

Kelli, I had to do it. I explain above. It wasn't intolerable, but I needed to vent a bit.

 

Honestly, I don't really see any point to debating christians on a forum. I was on forums plenty before I deconverted and when non-Christians came in and tried to reason, my reaction was basically the same one we have here to Christians coming in and trying to preach to us. IOW, it wasnt effective at all, and maybe even counter-productive.

 

I was looking at your website the other day. You've been online for twenty years. Your background cannot compare to mine. I find it so much easier to understand written convo than spoken. Up till the past four or five years, all my convo with fundies was spoken. Not until I was on forums could I begin to unravel what happened to me. I'm still working on that. And it seems I need to unravel and understand in order to live with it.

 

Does that clarify?

[R. S. Martin]

RubySera, I think in your case, the best way to deal with you might be a dozen roses and a box of expensive chocolates. A generous Barnes & Noble gift certificate?

 

But, that's just me...

 

Ask for large denominations of US currency. They may go for it.

 

 

How about this:

 

I promise to leave if:

 

You give me a dozen mixed roses that smell really nice and a box of Swiss chocolates. I expect a certificate to accompany them certifying that they are genuine.

 

A gift certificate for my local Chapters Bookstore worth $500 CnD.

 

A large donation of US currency. $100,000 would satisfy me, esp. if that came to the amount of $100,000 in Canadian funds. Please check the current exchange rate before fixing the amount in USD.

 

Thank you.

 

Um. Hmmm. Erm.

 

Now if I said that and if they came through on it, where would that put me? Would that mean I BRIBED someone??? How would I live with myself? Also, financially where would it put me? It would only pay off my student loan and pay my taxes and leave me nothing to live off. Maybe I'll have to make that $500,000 while I'm at it...no it's all too complicated...what with ethics and all. Hell, I couldn't even debate with fundies anymore! That would defeat the very purpose! I CAN'T DO IT!

 

So sorry Kenny. I know your heart's in the right place but there's stuff more important than money. Such as debating with fundies.

 

Just kidding in this entire post.

[R. S. Martin]

They will add the discussion to their scripts so that when the issue comes up, they will have a ready rapid response for it. Since they cannot argue effively, they think pat-answers, prethunk thoughts, are the way.

 

That totally took me back to my brief stint as a telemarketer. That's exactly what they would do as they revised a script.

 

1 Peter 3:15

15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

 

Too many give pat answers instead of actually thinking about what they believe and why. Sadly, far too many forget or ignore the "with gentleness and respect" part and turn it into smugness and condescension.

 

Actually, this group is above average when it comes to this. As stated in another post, this may be due to the fact that it's a closed forum so that only members can read the posts. People can't come in off the street just to pick a fight because they see someone they don't like.

 

Because it's a closed forum I don't feel right in copying too much of their actual words (posts) here for public view.

[R. S. Martin]

But, look at it this way. On the outside they ask, "How do we deal with the athiests?"

 

On the inside they're all asking themselves, "How do I deal with the questions?"

 

Of course they reverse that and say:

 

On the outside the Atheist asks, "How do we deal with the Christians?"

 

On the inside they're all asking themselves, "How do I deal with the questions?"

 

YES!!!

 

There is one question the one person totally ignores:

 

Why don't you believe my reason for deconverting?

I told him the story in pm. He demonstrated that he did not believe it. I asked him why he doesn't believe it. I asked him two or three times. He ignores the question. Every time. It's as though the question does not exist.

 

Incidentally, he's the person who started the thread on "How do we deal with atheists?"

 

I'm thinking if he's such a strong believer he could always believe my reason for deconverting. Seems "believing" is restricted to certain topics and ideas only.

[GraphicsGuy]

There is one question the one person totally ignores:

 

Why don't you believe my reason for deconverting?

 

I told him the story in pm. He demonstrated that he did not believe it. I asked him why he doesn't believe it. I asked him two or three times. He ignores the question. Every time. It's as though the question does not exist.

 

***sigh***

 

Yup, sorry Ruby, it's another common tactic. They dismiss your life. The fact is, they cannot reconcile what they believe with your experience. To accept one is to bring the other into question. So, guess which one gets accepted? Most commonly it comes out, "You were just never really saved."

 

Doctrine comes before people. It's the Xian motto.

[Thurisaz]

Has anyone ever seen such absolute thorough-going total CRAP?

 

Yeah, like every time I tried to discuss stuff with them.

[Kenny]

I remember in my more fervent days fully believing that every Atheist, or believer of any other faith than my own, lay in bed at night, staring at the cold emptiness of the world, thinking "Isn't there something more? What if I'm wrong? Does God really exist? Have I been hiding from him?"

 

Now I realize that I was just desperately trying to justify my supposed unwavering belief, but at the time, I was fully convinced that anyone that didn't know "the truth" about Christ was just putting up a front.

 

Remarks like this are what have been, in regards to this forum, giving my life meaning and purpose again. I'm relieved to no longer think like this. It's a huge burden removed to be out of this mindset. I appreciate the honesty in those comments, MonolithTMA. And while I completely understand open discussion with believers, I'm so happy that I'm no longer trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm not ready to be a front line fighter at this time... I'm still in the wounded tent.

[R. S. Martin]

I'm still in the wounded tent.

 

You're not the only one. I just spent some time on that forum again. I didn't think I'd have any more to say to them but this cop had a change of heart. And name. He keeps changing his name and tactics. It is impossible for me to tell at this point whether any of it is genuine but it seems to me a person who keeps changing identity must feels scared or wounded.

 

Maybe that's just my imagination playing tricks on me.

 

Whatever, I lay down the law, so to speak. He presented an intellectual challenge and I cannot resist that. He accused me of name-dropping. He's been doing it all along and I CAN'T STAND IT! I do my own thinking!....

 

I checked just now. Of all things! The guy has backed_down!

 

I must have met his challenge and then some. He's sitting on his haunches saying in a tired old voice that god (names 3 holy names) is all the ammunition he needs. Must be backed into a corner and out of ammunition to say that kind of thing. His ridicule didn't touch me. His emotional manipulation didn't work. Brainwashing didn't take hold. Name/identity change didn't confuse me. He couldn't lure me into the immorality of name-calling and other unrighteousness. And apparently his cross-examination and intellectual prowess has failed him, too.

 

I must say it is really satisfying seeing a man of God and the Law in this position.

[Grandpa Harley]

Unless it's for comic effect (hat-tip to Bro Jeff, our resident chameleon) if you're changing your name and style all the time you're a type of troll...

[R. S. Martin]

He went from A to B back to A. He has extensive personal data in his profile and he didn't change any of it. That is how I could verify that he was the same person. There are about three or four people in there who were talking to me. He's been there a long time and has the respect of the other community members. I don't think he falls into the troll category.

[Grandpa Harley]

Hmmm... interesting.

[hereticzero]

There is one question the one person totally ignores:

Why don't you believe my reason for deconverting?

I told him the story in pm. He demonstrated that he did not believe it. I asked him why he doesn't believe it. I asked him two or three times. He ignores the question. Every time. It's as though the question does not exist.

 

Incidentally, he's the person who started the thread on "How do we deal with atheists?"

 

I'm thinking if he's such a strong believer he could always believe my reason for deconverting. Seems "believing" is restricted to certain topics and ideas only.

 

He is playing word games now and making it appear that he is struggling in the spirit as he battles your insistance of deconversion. He cannot find it spiritually plausible for you to deconvert nor anyone else for that matter. He will start reciting scripture pretty soon. This battle makes him stronger in the Lord because he will have saved his mind from the devil's temptation! Somebody say 'Ramen.' Glory! You are the thorn in his side! Glory! The more insistant he is, and you reject his arguments, the more the Holy Ghost is adding power and prestige to the good brother's fight. I can see him going over this thread with his Sunday School class already. Glory! Ramen!

[hereticzero]

Nothing personal towards anyone on this board but I have had the unfortunate experience of dealing with a good brother that was allso a policeman. I won't knowingly talk to a cop claiming to be a Christian. The two concepts just don't fit in my mind. Forgiveness in Christ handed to you by law enforcement? Not in America! They'll arrest you for anything they can over here. Be self-concious about what you post with a cop discussion on the internet. Especially if he wants to compare life experiences. What you may think is harmless chit chat may be used against you in a court of law in the USA. Online chat rooms are not confidential areas such as someone's office or chapel. I totally mistrust law enforcement. I won't even ask one to call a tow truck. If the cop can't win an argument, he will resort to arrest and prosecution to make his point.

[R. S. Martin]

I can see him going over this thread with his Sunday School class already. Glory! Ramen!

 

If what he says is true, then he's a teacher without a class. I have no reason to think he's lying. [i'm going to delete a lot of this post. I think I'm posting too much confidential information.] Long story short, things happened and he and his family are no longer with a church.

[R. S. Martin]

Nothing personal towards anyone on this board but I have had the unfortunate experience of dealing with a good brother that was allso a policeman. I won't knowingly talk to a cop claiming to be a Christian. The two concepts just don't fit in my mind. Forgiveness in Christ handed to you by law enforcement? Not in America! They'll arrest you for anything they can over here. Be self-concious about what you post with a cop discussion on the internet. Especially if he wants to compare life experiences. What you may think is harmless chit chat may be used against you in a court of law in the USA. Online chat rooms are not confidential areas such as someone's office or chapel. I totally mistrust law enforcement. I won't even ask one to call a tow truck. If the cop can't win an argument, he will resort to arrest and prosecution to make his point.

 

Thanks for this post. I had not seen it.

 

Your experience must have been extra-ordinarily bad. It may make a difference if they see you as a brother or sister in the church. A few years ago I was on a forum where a fundy cop was moderator. He was a lot like this guy except he was Roman Catholic instead of Lutheran-Mennonite. Unstable self-esteem, huge ego manifested by throwing around his own weight. Traditional farmer soldier like the Roman generals.

 

Anyway, I got into a bad situation because a person from a former forum came and framed me. I got kicked off. I thought it was the manager doing it. I had gotten something via pm from the cop guy and I wanted to post it on my website but didn't dare do it without his permission. I snuck back into the forum with a new name and after a long time risked my neck to ask the cop for permission. I thought he knew who I was with my new name and I knew he was angry at my old identity. He gave me a crazy answer that could not be disciphered to mean either yes or no. I didn't dare accept it. Finally I worked up the courage to pm him again and tell him who I am and ask for a clear answer.

 

You know what? After conferring with all the other staff as to whether or not to keep me, he confessed that he had thought I was a new member and he let me post it. However, it seems it was the cop mod himself that had gotten me banned. He had thought the manager banned people in such a way that getting back in was technologically impossible. I guess I was technologically challenged enough that I bumbled and blundered around till I got back in. In my mind, not getting back in was not an option.

 

Thus, in my mind, fundy cops on the internet are people to be outwitted. But I think it's best not to be indebted to them for anything. Thanks again for the warning.