GraphicsGuy Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 This isn't really a rant...this forum is also for "replies" and this is technically a reply to a lot of the fundy "kids" that keep popping comments to me on YouTube...then again, it could turn into a rant. Bear with me please. There is a verse in one of the letters addressed to Timothy in the Bible that I actually feel is pretty sage advice. "Let no one despise you because of your youth." I try not to do that. I really try not to refer to anyone as a "stupid kid" or brush off what they say just because they're younger than I am. There are a number of very smart "kids" on this website. I've watched some pretty profound videos on YouTube made by teens still in high-school. I have some more life experience...that's about the only difference between me and them when it really comes down to it. Then again, maybe it's not "more" experience. Perhaps that experience is just "different." The problem at the moment is the Xian "kids." Does the religion alone really make them that stupid? I was a stupid Xian kid. Gawd...I was excessively fucking stupid. I was wondering if it was also due to the lacking hormones that fucked with my brain, but some of the things these fundy kids say...it makes me wonder... Most fundy adults don't seem to necessarily lack intelligence it seems. Some do, some don't. But any fundy under 24 seems like an absolute fucking idiot. They have this completely unrealistic world-view, they can't make a decision without looking to an elder, they totally dismiss what anyone but their pastor says... Yet they're the most vocal and most active on the web it seems. I feel like I'm about to start calling them "stupid kids" but then I'll feel like I'm just dismissing them and I don't like doing that to people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 The problem at the moment is the Xian "kids." Does the religion alone really make them that stupid? I was a stupid Xian kid. Gawd...I was excessively fucking stupid. Yeah, religion alone probably is sufficient to make them really stupid. Too bad when the real world hits them like a ton of bricks when they get older. I know it did me. Never underestimate the power of a fundy background to totally rob a person of all reasoning power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted February 5, 2008 Super Moderator Share Posted February 5, 2008 Youngsters are used to relying on their elders to inform and guide them, so they are more susceptible to brainwashing. Critical thinking and real history are not taught in schools, particularly the "private" (read "church") and certainly not in the home school. For those reasons I think the xian kids are at a great disadvantage. I feel sorry for them. I was one of them once. - Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted February 5, 2008 Author Share Posted February 5, 2008 It makes me wonder about our genetic makeup and such as well. I mean, I watched one deconversion vid recently...the girl deconverted at 14. She was asking all the hard questions and getting mad at the pat answers at 14! I can't help wondering how she was so fortunate...good genes? Environment? What? Sorry, this is me pining over lost youth and years as well. Not harshly, mind you...just can't help wondering...why????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 It makes me wonder about our genetic makeup and such as well. I mean, I watched one deconversion vid recently...the girl deconverted at 14. She was asking all the hard questions and getting mad at the pat answers at 14! I can't help wondering how she was so fortunate...good genes? Environment? What? I am inclined to believe it is genetic. Then again, the environment might have played a role. Maybe she was fortunate enought to have friends who weren't fundys who influenced her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted February 5, 2008 Author Share Posted February 5, 2008 Now that you say that my mind is ticking over some of the friends from my past and such. The girl on YouTube...Xian, but non-fundy home. She was free to do as she wished. But... Fundyism can drive a kid out of Xianity as well. Parents that try so hard to shelter their kids often end up driving them right out into The World. So perhaps it is genetics. I was very free to do as I pleased as I was growing up. However, I chose Xianity because it made me feel good. And I had this ingrained desire to not disappoint anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Most fundy adults don't seem to necessarily lack intelligence it seems. Some do, some don't. But any fundy under 24 seems like an absolute fucking idiot. They have this completely unrealistic world-view, they can't make a decision without looking to an elder, they totally dismiss what anyone but their pastor says... Yet they're the most vocal and most active on the web it seems. Part of the problem is that the PORTION of under 24 fundy kids you're running into appear to you as idiots. I try to shy away from the "kids today" rhetoric because teaching high school for three years taught me that today's youth are much more on the ball than I ever was. They're intelligent, compassionate, talented, committed, and they have specific goals they want to achieve. A handful are punks. The vast majority are three times the person I was at thier age. And I know you weren't making a blanket statement, graphicsguy. You mentioned their abilities for good. Not knocking your statement, but rather disagreeing with it a bit. But you did nail the important part, in my opinion. They have an unrealistic world view. All young people do, but it isn't necessarily their fault. I thought I knew quite a bit about life until the Army deployed me to numerous war-torn, disease infested hell holes around the globe. I learned quickly that the pie in the sky existance I'd enjoyed and envisioned as a young United States citizen was a farce at best. The young folks you're coming into contact with are in dream land... just like we were. I believe, for the most part, they're sincere and want to make the world a better place. I really do. They'll learn how hateful and cruel life can be in their own time. Be easy on them. And you're also correct in the fact that they're vocal and active. They're 10 feet tall and bulletproof! Just like we used to be, ya know? There's another batch right behind them waiting to take their place. And in the meantime, many of the under 24's will begin to see that they were excessively stupid back in the day. Nothin' new under the sun.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted February 5, 2008 Author Share Posted February 5, 2008 Nothin' new under the sun.... I agree, Kenny, with all you've written. I guess I'm trying to draw a distinction between Xian young 'uns and free-thinking young 'uns. It seems to me that this is where the largest disparity lies. I definitely don't want to fall into the habit of referring to anybody as a "stupid kid," but I've run into some doozies lately. Let me draw a parallel without using names: Fellow on this site. 19. Really smart. Seems to know where he's going in life. Athiest. Fellow on YouTube. 19. Seems to have the intelligence of a brick. Xian. And I'm not making this comparison because one of these youngsters disagrees with me and the other agrees. I've met some great people lately that I totally disagree with yet can totally appreciate their intelligence and their heart. I know this all boils down to a "people are people" answer so I suppose I am ranting because I can't accept that blanket answer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I wouldn't say you're ranting. It's a legitimate observation and your comments are certainly relevant. I wonder if maybe the young freethinkers aren't like some of us... unable to speak their minds due to current circumstances? I know that if I hadn't found this forum, I'd be extremely frustrated. It's not an issue for fundy kids to spew. It's encouraged. Perhaps such is not the case with the freethinkers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted February 5, 2008 Author Share Posted February 5, 2008 You could be on to something there...which ones are "rocking the boat" so to speak. Athiests often are hesitant to "come out" due to the expected backlash. Xians are encouraged to "testify" and proclaim their faith. Everybody's circumstances are different, but you may be onto something there. Xians say they are persecuted, yet every allowance is made for them it seems to me (at least in North America). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Most of my students are lacking in critical thinking skills, and even thinking skills. I try and pressure them to think and they react negatively. I know many of them are on the ball and many of them are worldly wise because they come from background that are as broken as ex-Christian former faith. I know they aren't stupid, but they are apathetic to no end. Plus, they likely haven't had any thought about religion in their lives because religion isn't as important as one might think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upstarter Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 It makes me wonder about our genetic makeup and such as well. I mean, I watched one deconversion vid recently...the girl deconverted at 14. She was asking all the hard questions and getting mad at the pat answers at 14! I probably started asking the hard questions at 14, certainly by 16. And I did grow up in a pretty fundy home. I have no idea how I was able to learn critical thinking, or why others didn't seem to care about the answers I was seeking. I've always had a bit of a rebellious spirit, maybe that's where it all stems from. I just always knew there was another point of view and I wanted to explore them all. I wonder if the fundy kids you're encountering are covering their own questions with dogma. I'd be willing to believe that some of the things you say on youtube make these kids really uncomfortable. So they lash out to cover their own doubts. Heather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted February 5, 2008 Author Share Posted February 5, 2008 I wonder if the fundy kids you're encountering are covering their own questions with dogma. I'd be willing to believe that some of the things you say on youtube make these kids really uncomfortable. So they lash out to cover their own doubts. Oh, I have no doubt about that. I think what I say makes adults uncomfortable too! I guess with the kids, like I said, I just don't want to dismiss them as "stupid kids". What they say is no different from the adult fundies, but their lack of life experience makes them doubly ignorant. It seems that the free-thinking youths will even admit to their lack of life experience in many cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 You could be on to something there...which ones are "rocking the boat" so to speak. Athiests often are hesitant to "come out" due to the expected backlash. Xians are encouraged to "testify" and proclaim their faith. Everybody's circumstances are different, but you may be onto something there. Xians say they are persecuted, yet every allowance is made for them it seems to me (at least in North America). I think that you hit it there. Of course we hear more from the types that are firm in their belief and mandate to tell the "truth". When you deal in absolutes and feel absolutely sure of them its easier to be outspoken. The smart kids are probably off contemplating what they believe and why rather than telling everyone else "how it is". Im not really sure why some break out of deep indoctrination though, its something Im very curious about as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted February 5, 2008 Author Share Posted February 5, 2008 This kind of goes into, "What triggers deconversion?" That can be a pretty broad range of events too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GypsyMoon Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 If you want to know why fundy kids act the way they do.. then just watch the way their parents act. Mine always told me that this, this, and this is a bad influence. As a result, until I deconverted a short time ago, I always refused council from anyone but my parents or my pastor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Keep in mind that there is a negative correlation between belief and intelligence, or at least certain measures of intelligence (there was a study in which 14% with a high school education or less disavow a belief in god, 31% with post graduate degrees, and 93% among members of the National Academy of Sciences). It seems reasonable that such a correlation would extend to teenagers as well, not only because they are better thinkers, but because they're more likely to have parents who are better thinkers. As you implied, such a difference is much more obvious for those under the age of about 24, with less life experience and more likely to parrot their elders. Notice something interesting about this site? There are many smart folks here with well honed critical thinking skills among BOTH teenage AND adult deconverters. I do not know why some of us stay brainwashed for an extra ten years while others pick off the bullshit before they've even had a chance to mature. Are the early deconverters smarter on average? Maybe, we do have some that are really astute. On the other hand, maybe not, a lot of my fellow adult deconverters are awfully sharp as well. I know that I greatly overestimated the wisdom of my adult authority figures--maybe that's one of the differences between the two groups. I do know that we've had some younger members here who have knocked my socks off with their acumen. I wish I could have matched them at that age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 With myself coming from a homogenous background where everyone went to the same church, and had the same culture, same level of education, etc., I wonder sometimes what the effect is in public schools where you have children with both parents professors in the same class with kids of barely literate parents. Or doesn't this sort of thing happen with urban planning and all? My landlady is a retired elementary school teacher and she says she was more comfortable in middle income family schools than certain other categories so I guess there must be ways to get kids in with their own culture to some degree. I guess I'm not at all sure and it seems we have some teachers on here who might be better informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 As a result, until I deconverted a short time ago, I always refused council from anyone but my parents or my pastor. Grease Monkey! I was thinking of you earlier because of this thread...actually couldn't remember your username...can I use you as a prime example? Yes? Good...step forward please... Here you see a young human female. 16 years old if memory serves? Deconverted, free thinking. Well done! Her parents...fundies. Her siblings...fundies (correct?). Yet, here she is deconverted and waiting to escape her home. Is there a scientific explanation? Is she just rebellious and pissed off at her family? GM...I know you've told your story, but could you sum up and perhaps give some thoughts on how/why you pulled out of Xianity when others around you haven't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Her parents...fundies. Her siblings...fundies (correct?). Yet, here she is deconverted and waiting to escape her home. Is there a scientific explanation? Is she just rebellious and pissed off at her family? Id like to think theres more to it than petty rebellion. A personality thing perhaps? Or personal experience leading to a conclusion? When you have a family like that the decision is never taken lightly, you have everything to lose especially when youre that young. Not to imply that you were making light of things GG, just IMO the reasons depend on the person not the typical rebelliousness of youth. (Sorry that struck a chord, alot of people see the age and assume "its a phase" or "they're just trying to be different" and basically equate deconversion to a teenage fad....that rankles, for some being normal would have been far easier and perhaps preferable to self imposed alienation from most the people you've known since birth.) Ok Im fine now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 No, no, no...don't apologize, I wrote it exactly because of what you said. People see age and make an assumption along the lines you've mentioned. It's perfect that you expounded on that right away (must be the Lard moving... ). I wanted to expose that idea so it could be debunked and/or smashed and ground under boot heels. So, good job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Something to consider, too, is that a lot of fundy families are incredibly controlling. In controlling families, it isn't safe to express dissenting viewpoints; in fact doing so often invites abuse. I'd bet some percentage of "stupid" fundy kids are parroting the party line because it's what's expected of them, and it's what's safest for them to do. I'm not going to say this is the case for every fundy teen, I just bet it's that way for some - because it sure was for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 True...valid reason for why some continue to spew the rhetoric. Especially if they have to worry about a parent or sibling going through temporary internet records and such... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizened Sage Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 As for the correlation of intelligence and non-belief, I am reminded of a comment Valerie Tarico once made on these pages. Often the most intelligent are simply able to come up with the most creative arguments to retain their beliefs. It seems to me that, in most cases, we are dealing with indoctrination of very young people, and it becomes very difficult to break free of the world view that they have taken on. I too am fascinated with the question of how some people, devout believers, manage to break free. It seems to be a matter of simple doubts that pile up over time. I'm also reminded of the ex-Mormon who said the first crack in his belief system occured when a young person told him, point blank, that his beliefs were "ridiculous." Fascinating question, graphicsguy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 Something that just occured to me is the power and benefit of friends... When I was a teen all of my friends were Xians. The World was a bad place and the people "out there" would hurt me. This was a world view that I considered as true due to how I was treated at school. I was the nerd. Bullied, teased. Plus I was excessively withdrawn and depressed all the time. But at church I was surrounded by friends and was able to become this extroverted version of myself that I liked a lot better. Obviously I wouldn't want to question my only support system. Just thinking that if someone experiences the opposite: extroverted/accepted by The World but repressed in church, then it would certainly trigger questioning much sooner than for someone in a case like my own was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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