Cooligan Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I'm really just curious here and would like your insight. When I hike, camp, or even just visit some sort of park or wilderness, I always got knocked back with breathtaking views and the first thing I think of is that this is too beautiful to be created by chance. I assume some atheists find nature as beautiful as I do (correct me if I'm wrong), and I was curious about your take on the feeling of wonderment that you get when you see these vistas. Do you think humans are born with a natural inclination to enjoy their surroundings, or is nature really something special? Are some of you disappointed that nature isn't more beautiful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 To me, nature got a whole lot more marvellous when I realised it's a self modulating process, not an artefact... The concept (to me) of a creator robs nature of a all it's wonder... yes, it's an impressive mechanism from the 'creation' pov compared to what we can build atm, but it's pointless marvelling at it... it does it's job... if it didn't it would be piss poor... the whole 'creation thing makes it no better than a good central heating installation, or a mostly working subway system. I don't feel the need to thank my plumber for my central heating, nor do I thank the engineers who designed the Liverpool Metro... it's supposed to work. If it all happened 'by chance' then you're looking something IMPRESSIVE... from the vile sex lives of bed bugs to the Hubble Deep View image to the Pale Blue Dot and back to the scuttling things that live in the eternal darkness of the deep trenches of the Ocean who metabolise a chemical soup that would strip our flesh as it poisoned we mammals of the surface world... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I wonder about that sometimes too. That feeling you get from looking at natrual beauty seems unique to me. Not all people get that feeling though so its hardly a universal indicator. Some also find beauty in different sorts of nature, some prefer forests others the plains. Whether this is some kind of evolutionary response to an ecosystem being "right" or something else entirely Im not sure. Its like the reaction you can get from good music its an interesting feeling, but I dont think it necessarily points to something outside of the experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Do you think humans are born with a natural inclination to enjoy their surroundings, or is nature really something special? Are some of you disappointed that nature isn't more beautiful? No. Enjoying nature, just like the definition of beauty itself (which is highly subjective), is a learned thing. There are people who do not enjoy nature. Just because you enjoy nature, it is unfair and biased to assume everyone else does too. It's like the hiking and camping you do. There are people who look at your lesiure activities and wonder why the fuck anyone would want to do them. You probably wonder why some folks prefer to go to movies or malls when it's a bright sunny day outside too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upstarter Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I live in one of the most naturally beautiful parts of this planet. I am stunned daily by the majesty of what is around me. Like Grampa Harley said, it's more amazing that it has come about on its own. The idea that someone just created it is not special at all. I don't know if it's inherent in our natures to appreciate the wonders of the world. I try very hard to instill in my children an appreciation for how fortunate we are to live where we do and see that beauty every day. Just the other day I was talking to my son about plate techtonics and the creation of our mountains and how cool that process is. I feel most at peace when I'm walking by the river behind my house. I do not feel close to an imaginary god, I feel close to the earth. Heather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Nature sucks. I hate it. Burn it all to the ground! Fucking weeds and trees and flowers getting in the way of progress and encroaching on our gorgeous asphalt jungle... GAWD! Come on man...who isn't awed everytime they look at nature? Why do you think that ancients made up gods in the first place? Why do you think they worshipped nature? There's nothing better than floating down a river, looking up at the sky and the mountains, fish swimming below, wildlife on the banks, and realizing just how small and frail your existence is. ...or going to the beach and seeing nature frolicking in bikinis...your pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooligan Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 No. Enjoying nature, just like the definition of beauty itself (which is highly subjective), is a learned thing. There are people who do not enjoy nature. Just because you enjoy nature, it is unfair and biased to assume everyone else does too. It's like the hiking and camping you do. There are people who look at your lesiure activities and wonder why the fuck anyone would want to do them. Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooligan Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 I live in one of the most naturally beautiful parts of this planet. I am stunned daily by the majesty of what is around me. Like Grampa Harley said, it's more amazing that it has come about on its own. The idea that someone just created it is not special at all. But doesn't it seem strange that something so beautiful to you and your family happened out of sheer luck? P.S. By the way, for everyone, no need to disprove creationism here, I believe in evolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooligan Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 Do you think humans are born with a natural inclination to enjoy their surroundings, or is nature really something special? Are some of you disappointed that nature isn't more beautiful? No. Enjoying nature, just like the definition of beauty itself (which is highly subjective), is a learned thing. There are people who do not enjoy nature. Just because you enjoy nature, it is unfair and biased to assume everyone else does too. It's like the hiking and camping you do. There are people who look at your lesiure activities and wonder why the fuck anyone would want to do them. You probably wonder why some folks prefer to go to movies or malls when it's a bright sunny day outside too. What about you, do you enjoy nature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 What about you, do you enjoy nature? I live in Alaska. By choice. I'd BETTER enjoy nature! I know a lot of folks who don't though. I can only hope they can eventually make enough money to move somewhere they would be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I'm not certain it's learned... my cat definitely likes watching windy weather. African tribesmen, who live hard lives that are pretty much hand to mouth will admire sunsets... So bald assertions it's 'learned' are unproven... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooligan Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 I'm not certain it's learned... my cat definitely likes watching windy weather. African tribesmen, who live hard lives that are pretty much hand to mouth will admire sunsets... So bald assertions it's 'learned' are unproven... So, what do you think. Are sunsets beautiful, or are people born to enjoy them? Or is that the same thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 There is an inherent 'aesthetic'... it's like the Golden ratio crops up in Greek , Indian Tibetan, Chinese, and Mesoamerican designs... yet their graphical vocabularies are as alien to each other as the dark side of the moon is to a Siberian dirt farmer (who will also use the golden ratio in his house design and that of his furniture, and always has done...) There is no such thing as 'extrinsic' beauty... a maggot ridden corpse is as inherently pretty as a Constable painting... it's down to the observer as to whether you like the shades of blue, green, grey and black, and the delicate filigree of holes... or not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Beautiful is in the eye of the beer holder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I'm really just curious here and would like your insight. When I hike, camp, or even just visit some sort of park or wilderness, I always got knocked back with breathtaking views and the first thing I think of is that this is too beautiful to be created by chance. I assume some atheists find nature as beautiful as I do (correct me if I'm wrong), and I was curious about your take on the feeling of wonderment that you get when you see these vistas. Do you think humans are born with a natural inclination to enjoy their surroundings, or is nature really something special? Are some of you disappointed that nature isn't more beautiful? Consider this. If we evolved out of nature, and because of survival of nature and the need for the early animals to live, strive and compete in nature, why is it not possible that it would also result in a feeling of belonging to that same nature we came from, and see the beauty of nature when it is at its best? Consider for instance if survival was based on a species that needed to find food. Would it hate to see a green tree with good fruits on it, and totally love to live in the desert and die out of thirst and hunger? It would be a natural phenomenon - at least I think so - that we would evolve (and animals too) to love lush and healthy nature that would support us and give us nourishment. So if I'm right, the feeling of awe and the sublime, does not require a God to explain it. I believe many emotions stem from the need to progress and be more fruitful in the environment. But even when I know this is possibly so, it doesn't stop me from feeling those emotions and because we developed as such, I would enjoy feeling those emotions. Nature is so, and I'm hence also so, and you too, and no God involved. On the other hand, why would God create fickle emotions in humans? They tend to deceive humans to do evil things, so why did God create passion and love that would cause people to sometimes hurt other people? Is God a sadist? So God's sadistic design is the proof that he exists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 If God created the sunset to be beautiful, and he created humans to have the emotions of awe, then why does he let some people be born blind? Beauty is a value, not a fact, it is not necessarily learned (but sometimes is achieved), but it is when something harmonize within ourselves. For instance, Kevin posted a link to pictures of old abandoned mills and ruins. Pictures were in b&w. I loved them. I can see the beauty in those old, dirty, broken down, buildings. For some, this is not beauty at all, but just old stuff that needs to be removed. So what is it? God created the ruins and me, but he didn't create those who hate it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 "It's been a long time since I smelled beautiful." - Richard B. Riddick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooligan Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 Consider this. If we evolved out of nature, and because of survival of nature and the need for the early animals to live, strive and compete in nature, why is it not possible that it would also result in a feeling of belonging to that same nature we came from, and see the beauty of nature when it is at its best? Consider for instance if survival was based on a species that needed to find food. Would it hate to see a green tree with good fruits on it, and totally love to live in the desert and die out of thirst and hunger? It would be a natural phenomenon - at least I think so - that we would evolve (and animals too) to love lush and healthy nature that would support us and give us nourishment. So if I'm right, the feeling of awe and the sublime, does not require a God to explain it. I believe many emotions stem from the need to progress and be more fruitful in the environment. But even when I know this is possibly so, it doesn't stop me from feeling those emotions and because we developed as such, I would enjoy feeling those emotions. Nature is so, and I'm hence also so, and you too, and no God involved. On the other hand, why would God create fickle emotions in humans? They tend to deceive humans to do evil things, so why did God create passion and love that would cause people to sometimes hurt other people? Is God a sadist? So God's sadistic design is the proof that he exists? So you think humans are born with an emotional attachment to environmental beauty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I'm not certain it's learned... my cat definitely likes watching windy weather. African tribesmen, who live hard lives that are pretty much hand to mouth will admire sunsets... So bald assertions it's 'learned' are unproven... So, what do you think. Are sunsets beautiful, or are people born to enjoy them? Or is that the same thing? An appreciation for symmetry seems to be instinctive. Babies shown pictures of people prefer faces with symmetrical features. So that part seems to be Nature. A sunset may or may not be beautiful...doesn't matter as much as whether or not a person with the opportunity to admire it takes the time to look at the sunset. That behavior is learned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 So you think humans are born with an emotional attachment to environmental beauty? Yes, generally. Of course some people can be born with a defect or later in life get injured and the parts of the brain that is stimulated by natural beauty can be damaged and they won't feel the same. And on the same token, some have more of this feelings than others. The pleasure centers can be triggered by many different reasons in different people. Some people find pleasure in pain. So is that something good that God created too? Consider that you feel a sense of pleasure when you see some form of beauty, or what you consider beauty. Some of it can be learned by repetitive (Pavlov) training, and other is something we are tuned or wired to. There are no clear line to say, it is only 100% so, or only 100% the other way. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooligan Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 Then what happened with the deserts, did god get bored. I absolutely detest the desert. I find it hot, ugly, dry and dull. So therefore, since I find no appreciation of the desert, god must no exist. Yet again, I think the ocean is marvelous even though it has the sand factor, so there must be a god. I don't know quite what you are asking, are you saying that the way nature looks and our ability to appreciate beauty proves there is a god? I'm not actually trying to prove anything here. I've never had this conversation with someone who doesn't believe in the existence of a god and I wanted to know what you would say. Seemed like exchristian.net would be the place to find atheists. I can't ever remember looking around at a beautiful view and thinking, "wow there must be a god because this is awesome." Not even when I was a christian. I do this all the time and I don't see why I wouldn't even if I was unsure about the existence of a god. Nature is pretty freakin' amazing to me. To good to be created by chance. But, it sounds like if you lived in the desert, god would be the last thing on your mind. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 But, it sounds like if you lived in the desert, god would be the last thing on your mind. :-) If that was true, we'd not be in this mess since the Jews would have been atheist... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooligan Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 There is an inherent 'aesthetic'... it's like the Golden ratio crops up in Greek , Indian Tibetan, Chinese, and Mesoamerican designs... yet their graphical vocabularies are as alien to each other as the dark side of the moon is to a Siberian dirt farmer (who will also use the golden ratio in his house design and that of his furniture, and always has done...) There is no such thing as 'extrinsic' beauty... a maggot ridden corpse is as inherently pretty as a Constable painting... it's down to the observer as to whether you like the shades of blue, green, grey and black, and the delicate filigree of holes... or not... So, no? Sunsets are not beautiful? Maybe aesthetic, but not beautiful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooligan Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 But, it sounds like if you lived in the desert, god would be the last thing on your mind. :-) If that was true, we'd not be in this mess since the Jews would have been atheist... Zing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooligan Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 So you think humans are born with an emotional attachment to environmental beauty? Yes, generally. Of course some people can be born with a defect or later in life get injured and the parts of the brain that is stimulated by natural beauty can be damaged and they won't feel the same. And on the same token, some have more of this feelings than others. The pleasure centers can be triggered by many different reasons in different people. Some people find pleasure in pain. So is that something good that God created too? Consider that you feel a sense of pleasure when you see some form of beauty, or what you consider beauty. Some of it can be learned by repetitive (Pavlov) training, and other is something we are tuned or wired to. There are no clear line to say, it is only 100% so, or only 100% the other way. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle. So, when I look at a snowcapped mountain or a forest of redwoods, it isn't actually beautiful, I just think it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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