Grandpa Harley Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 There is an inherent 'aesthetic'... it's like the Golden ratio crops up in Greek , Indian Tibetan, Chinese, and Mesoamerican designs... yet their graphical vocabularies are as alien to each other as the dark side of the moon is to a Siberian dirt farmer (who will also use the golden ratio in his house design and that of his furniture, and always has done...) There is no such thing as 'extrinsic' beauty... a maggot ridden corpse is as inherently pretty as a Constable painting... it's down to the observer as to whether you like the shades of blue, green, grey and black, and the delicate filigree of holes... or not... So, no? Sunsets are not beautiful? Maybe aesthetic, but not beautiful? The question, on an objective level, is like asking what does blue taste of... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 So you think humans are born with an emotional attachment to environmental beauty? Yes, generally. Of course some people can be born with a defect or later in life get injured and the parts of the brain that is stimulated by natural beauty can be damaged and they won't feel the same. And on the same token, some have more of this feelings than others. The pleasure centers can be triggered by many different reasons in different people. Some people find pleasure in pain. So is that something good that God created too? Consider that you feel a sense of pleasure when you see some form of beauty, or what you consider beauty. Some of it can be learned by repetitive (Pavlov) training, and other is something we are tuned or wired to. There are no clear line to say, it is only 100% so, or only 100% the other way. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle. So, when I look at a snowcapped mountain or a forest of redwoods, it isn't actually beautiful, I just think it is? In one... you're getting repetative now... having some sort of comprehension probelm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooligan Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 There is an inherent 'aesthetic'... it's like the Golden ratio crops up in Greek , Indian Tibetan, Chinese, and Mesoamerican designs... yet their graphical vocabularies are as alien to each other as the dark side of the moon is to a Siberian dirt farmer (who will also use the golden ratio in his house design and that of his furniture, and always has done...) There is no such thing as 'extrinsic' beauty... a maggot ridden corpse is as inherently pretty as a Constable painting... it's down to the observer as to whether you like the shades of blue, green, grey and black, and the delicate filigree of holes... or not... So, no? Sunsets are not beautiful? Maybe aesthetic, but not beautiful? The question, on an objective level, is like asking what does blue taste of... What if everyone in the world, past, present and future, agreed that sunsets are beautiful, then are they beautiful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooligan Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 In one... you're getting repetative now... having some sort of comprehension probelm? Wow, I was not expecting a jab like that from you. I saw it as two conversations, one with you and the other person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Welcome to planet Grandpa... I'm not nice, I'm not tolerant and my ways are subtle and I'm quick to anger... How many times do you need the same damned answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 The question, on an objective level, is like asking what does blue taste of... What if everyone in the world, past, present and future, agreed that sunsets are beautiful, then are they beautiful? You don't seem to have the slightest grasp of cognitive function... however, I'll indulge you... no, you'd simply have a consensus... no one sees the same sun set... so they can only comment on their sunset, and whether they liked it or not... it doesn't make it an objective fact... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooligan Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 Welcome to planet Grandpa... I'm not nice, I'm not tolerant and my ways are subtle and I'm quick to anger... How many times do you need the same damned answer? So if the entire human experience have all decided that a sunset is beautiful we still can't say that a sunset, in its core, is beautiful? I hope this doesn't piss you off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Why can't one see and appreciate beauty for what it is -- whether in nature or man-made (man also being part of nature) without speculations of a creator or atheist/nonatheist at all? This is exactly right, Gramps-- There is no such thing as 'extrinsic' beauty... a maggot ridden corpse is as inherently pretty as a Constable painting... it's down to the observer as to whether you like the shades of blue, green, grey and black, and the delicate filigree of holes... or not... I don't really understand your line of questioning, Cooligan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 You pissed me off three posts ago, god boy. I've already answered the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooligan Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 Welcome to planet Grandpa... I'm not nice, I'm not tolerant and my ways are subtle and I'm quick to anger... How many times do you need the same damned answer? So if the entire human experience have all decided that a sunset is beautiful we still can't say that a sunset, in its core, is beautiful? I hope this doesn't piss you off... I wrote this before I saw your previous post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Why can't one see and appreciate beauty for what it is -- whether in nature or man-made (man also being part of nature) without speculations of a creator or atheist/nonatheist at all? This is exactly right, Gramps-- There is no such thing as 'extrinsic' beauty... a maggot ridden corpse is as inherently pretty as a Constable painting... it's down to the observer as to whether you like the shades of blue, green, grey and black, and the delicate filigree of holes... or not... I don't really understand your line of questioning, Cooligan. He's trying to prove there's a god to apostates... and getting royally irritating... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Welcome to planet Grandpa... I'm not nice, I'm not tolerant and my ways are subtle and I'm quick to anger... How many times do you need the same damned answer? So if the entire human experience have all decided that a sunset is beautiful we still can't say that a sunset, in its core, is beautiful? I hope this doesn't piss you off... I wrote this before I saw your previous post. I guessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooligan Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 Not proving anything. I simply see the world one way and curious how others see it. I understand that in a forum such as this, one has to be on constant guard from surprise attack, or something, but I don't have an ulterior motive. I've read enough of this site to be very clear that no one will prove the existence of a god to anyone, so rest assure, I have no intention of traveling down that road. Here is my point. I love nature, I think it is beautiful. I know others feel the same way I do. I would bet that every human that has passed by on this planet feels the same way, in some capacity. From the conversations on this post, it appears we have two options. One: we are born with a wonderment of nature, through evolution or whatever. Or two: there is something about nature that makes it beautiful, at its core. And not every part of nature to everyone, but something in it for everyone. And through this process I managed to piss off an old man, which I feel bad about. Although, it sounds like he may be pissed off most of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 ...Must it have been created because you find it beautiful, or do you find it beautiful because it was created? No, it's not a stupid or trick question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooligan Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 ...Must it have been created because you find it beautiful, or do you find it beautiful because it was created? No, it's not a stupid or trick question. Because it is beautiful, I think it must have been created. Good question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 And through this process I managed to piss off an old man, which I feel bad about. Although, it sounds like he may be pissed off most of the time. I am older than he is. He has a low tolerence level for stupidity, which I can fully appreciate. it appears we have two options. One: we are born with a wonderment of nature, through evolution or whatever. Or two: there is something about nature that makes it beautiful, at its core. And not every part of nature to everyone, but something in it for everyone. I just don't understand why you have to see it as two options. I never like situations set up as "two options". I don't understand why we can't just appreciate (or not) what is in "the world" without all the mental stuff, the speculations. Why, in this issue of aesthetics, does it interest you that atheists do or do not see beauty in nature? If you are asking where the aesthetic sense originated, I would say it evolved like everything else on the planet. But who knows how far back it goes? Does my cat see a mouse or other object as beautiful? How would you know she didn't? There isn't any surprise attack here. We just don't like Christianity and you must know that. And we don't like round about ways of bringing the Bible God into the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Care to point out where ANYONE has said that 'it's intrinsically beautiful' on this thread, other than you? Really, god boy, you don't count since you arrived with that opinion... and I'm pretty tolerant of most thing, but when someone is trying to corral agreement for a prejudice, I get pissy since it's an insult to our collective intelligence... some form of appreciation of the environment seems to be inherent in organisms, but that does not mean that, something is beautiful in of itself... Do I find the Hubble Deep Field picture 'beautiful' - yes... is it pretty to all oberservers? No... my wife thinks it's a dull image that would be much improved by application of non visible light filters... it's impressive, but not something she'd vare to have hung on the wall... both views are correct... but the image (and the reality) is not objectively beautiful... and that is pretty well what's been said to you, and then you're trying to worm it round so it agrees with your idea... well, thus far NO FUCKER HAS AGREED... and simply restating the question isn't going to change that... and you're not telling the truth on the 'convince anyone of anything' since you're clearly trying to re-word the question for SOMEONE to agree... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 ...Must it have been created because you find it beautiful, or do you find it beautiful because it was created? No, it's not a stupid or trick question. Because it is beautiful, I think it must have been created. Good question. and it is intrinsically beautiful HOW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Because it is beautiful, I think it must have been created. I would like to hear your explanation for this statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Because it is beautiful, I think it must have been created. I would like to hear your explanation for this statement. I just lost the will to live... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Because it is beautiful, I think it must have been created. I would like to hear your explanation for this statement. I just lost the will to live... Sorry Gramps, I just can't help it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 NO, when he said it, not when you asked... it meant he was going to explain it whether anyone asked or not... I mean... not one of us thinks it's going to be anything either convincing or original... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooligan Posted February 7, 2008 Author Share Posted February 7, 2008 Care to point out where ANYONE has said that 'it's intrinsically beautiful' on this thread, other than you? No one, only me. and I'm pretty tolerant of most thing, but when someone is trying to corral agreement for a prejudice, I get pissy since it's an insult to our collective intelligence... some form of appreciation of the environment seems to be inherent in organisms, but that does not mean that, something is beautiful in of itself... Do I find the Hubble Deep Field picture 'beautiful' - yes... is it pretty to all oberservers? No... my wife thinks it's a dull image that would be much improved by application of non visible light filters... it's impressive, but not something she'd vare to have hung on the wall... both views are correct... but the image (and the reality) is not objectively beautiful... and that is pretty well what's been said to you, and then you're trying to worm it round so it agrees with your idea... well, thus far NO FUCKER HAS AGREED... and simply restating the question isn't going to change that... I restate the question because I'm in a constant state of understanding and changing my own stance, and I want to ask a question that better reflects what I believe. and you're not telling the truth on the 'convince anyone of anything' since you're clearly trying to re-word the question for SOMEONE to agree... I'm not, and I can't, prove anything I'm saying, mostly because beauty is subjective. I guess I would like someone to agree with me, but just because they agree with me, not because I made them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 NO, when he said it, not when you asked... it meant he was going to explain it whether anyone asked or not... I mean... not one of us thinks it's going to be anything either convincing or original... OK, Yes I am sure you are right. I know I am going to hear it and really I can hardly wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooligan Posted February 7, 2008 Author Share Posted February 7, 2008 ...Must it have been created because you find it beautiful, or do you find it beautiful because it was created? No, it's not a stupid or trick question. Because it is beautiful, I think it must have been created. Good question. and it is intrinsically beautiful HOW? I think it is intrinsically beautiful because I would bet every human has found at least one part of nature to be beautiful. I didn't write this with the intent to be convincing or original, as I didn't know that was a requirement for this forum. I wanted to engage people in conversation. Feel free to not read anything more I have to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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